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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Correspondence Chess Websites? (Read 17307 times)
Gambit
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #22 - 03/10/11 at 08:28:28
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Interesting point. Way I see it, using computers in correspondence chess is one thing, in OTB chess, quite another. So say, for sake of argument, that Joe used a computer in correspondence chess, while Harry used the same in OTB chess. Then Harry is a cheat, because you cannot consult a computer while playing an OTB opponent. OTB chess is more enforceable on the spot than correspondence chess.

Thus, correspondence chess is more about analysis of moves over a longer time period than over-the-board chess. That said, it seems like you can use a computer
to help you in correspondence chess, while the same cannot be said of OTB  chess.

Suppose then, that I was playing in corr. game that involved the Marshall Gambit in the Ruy Lopez or the Sicilian Defense, Dragon Variation. Using your own analyses and a computer would not be considered cheating here, correct? After all, these lines can go 20-30 moves deep, and you need to triple-check the analyses.

Now if someone did that in an over-the-board game (as opposed to an adjourned game), a howl of protest would ensue. A case in point would be the infamous example of a player using a computer at the World Open in USA, some years back. He was getting the moves through the headphones. Of course the guy was forfeited and ejected from the tournament.

Anyone here remember that little incident? What is your opinion, ladies and gentlemen?
  
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Matemax
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #21 - 03/10/11 at 07:36:05
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whatteaux wrote on 03/10/11 at 07:27:59:
[quote author=25323529262022470 link=1299365085/19#19 date=1299738467][quote author=7A736E7770797D7A1C0 link=1299365085/15#15 date=1299724470]You may analyze games with chess engines after they are finished. You may consult chess books or game/move databases at any time.

That's the crux of this method. On chess.com there are a lot of people with really absurd ratings (now the corrected them a bit - but there were people with 3.200!). How can that be? Are they cheating? I say "NO!" within the above formula (which is the same for chess.com), because they surely analyse their openings well with books, databases and the comp (if the position is known, it should be allowed!), analysis sample games ("might be variation"), make a tree of them and then play their moves seemingly without the comp. Once they are beyond the opening with a stable plus, they don't need the comp assistance anymore.

Despite I play on chess.com, too (mostly Thematic Tourneys - to test the chesspub.variations!) I think that it's much easier to simply allow all assistance. There is a lot of discussion about cheating - but where does opening analysis end (what if I already had the line analised years ago?)

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whatteaux
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #20 - 03/10/11 at 07:27:59
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trw wrote on 03/10/11 at 06:27:47:
kevinfat wrote on 03/10/11 at 02:34:30:
So is the concensus that only www.ficgs.com officially allows computers?


The only site that doesn't allow computers is the uscf. ficgs, iccf, iecg, lss, netchess, and all the rest do.


FWIW, GameKnot also forbids the use of computers. ("You may not use chess engines nor chess computers to help you decide your next move. You may not consult with anyone nor ask for advice about any of your games in progress (nor provide such advice to other GameKnot players about their games in progress, whether solicited or not). You may analyze games with chess engines after they are finished. You may consult chess books or game/move databases at any time.")
  
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trw
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #19 - 03/10/11 at 06:27:47
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kevinfat wrote on 03/10/11 at 02:34:30:
So is the concensus that only www.ficgs.com officially allows computers?


The only site that doesn't allow computers is the uscf. ficgs, iccf, iecg, lss, netchess, and all the rest do.
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #18 - 03/10/11 at 03:52:34
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kevinfat wrote on 03/10/11 at 02:34:30:
So is the concensus that only www.ficgs.com officially allows computers?

No.
Matemax asked an ICCF-official and got the answer that any source is allowed to decide what move you will play, including a Kasparov consult. It's well known that Joop van Oosterom got help from amongst others Korchnoi, Timman and Piket. It's also well known that before 1991 Soviet-Russian players consisted of whole teams. ICCF never undertook actions against it, not even pro-form.
Play for ICCF, consult your computer and nobody will bother you, even if you admit it explicitly. What more allowance do you want?
  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #17 - 03/10/11 at 03:16:18
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@RenesDescartes: Well unlike you, my dear chessfrend, I actually play CC. What is it, I wonder, that gratifies you about wringing your hands over a pursuit in which you don't engage? I would have thought that so much rectitude would have been sufficient unto itself, without anyone's having to come here and pat himself on the back in a public forum on account of it.

Don't like CC? Fine, don't play it.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #16 - 03/10/11 at 03:01:37
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/07/11 at 04:25:38:
Markovich wrote on 03/06/11 at 15:17:26:
[quote author=497E757E5F7E68787A696F7E681B0 link=129936508i5/4#4 date=1299414232]

Call me and these others cheats if you wish, but I can't see that it's skin off anyone's nose if "CaptainKidd" beats "SnowWhite" using a computer.  Nothing is at stake.  If SnowWhite doesn't want to play a pirate, she should go to a serious CC site and play under her real name. 

I know this point of view makes some people angry, and I frankly don't care.  I simply don't respect the rules of these crap anonymous CC sites enough to deprive myself of the opportunity to play the game I want to play.  When my opponent and I both play under our true names, then I do obey the rules, out of respect for him or her. 

 
What about respect for anonymous people? They're human beings deserving of respect as well.
   
What's wrong with it? It's a lie, lies hurt people. You damage their information in life. You've sleighted someone. You might suppose their perspective and their world views to be inferior to yours, and declare what they: "should do instead of hurr durr anonymous names silly lol".
   


I'm afraid I don't have much respect for anonymous people, and that includes you. If you don't like it, you can come and see me about it, and so can all the anonymous people of this world, for that matter. My identity is well known here.
  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #15 - 03/10/11 at 02:34:30
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So is the concensus that only www.ficgs.com officially allows computers?
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #14 - 03/07/11 at 04:25:38
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Markovich wrote on 03/06/11 at 15:17:26:
[quote author=497E757E5F7E68787A696F7E681B0 link=1299365085/4#4 date=1299414232]

Call me and these others cheats if you wish, but I can't see that it's skin off anyone's nose if "CaptainKidd" beats "SnowWhite" using a computer.  Nothing is at stake.  If SnowWhite doesn't want to play a pirate, she should go to a serious CC site and play under her real name. 

I know this point of view makes some people angry, and I frankly don't care.  I simply don't respect the rules of these crap anonymous CC sites enough to deprive myself of the opportunity to play the game I want to play.  When my opponent and I both play under our true names, then I do obey the rules, out of respect for him or her. 

 
What about respect for anonymous people? They're human beings deserving of respect as well.
   
What's wrong with it? It's a lie, lies hurt people. You damage their information in life. You've sleighted someone. You might suppose their perspective and their world views to be inferior to yours, and declare what they: "should do instead of hurr durr anonymous names silly lol".
   
« Last Edit: 03/07/11 at 18:21:15 by Uhohspaghettio »  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #13 - 03/06/11 at 20:32:41
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http://lss.chess-server.net/

This is a free server where you have cc with engines and if you want some engine free tournaments. It continues the iecg tournaments.
  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #12 - 03/06/11 at 18:10:08
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This is from Emerson's journals (Sept. 1842):

White lies. It shall be the law of this society that no member shall be reckoned a liar who is a sportsman, and indicates the wrong place when asked where he shot his partridge;[...] or who is an author, and being asked if he wrote an anonymous book, replies in the negative.

Ghost (under the floor). It shall not be the law.
« Last Edit: 03/07/11 at 02:00:34 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #11 - 03/06/11 at 15:17:26
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ReneDescartes wrote on 03/06/11 at 12:23:52:
Doesn't that leave a situation where some players don't use computers while others do, yet there is no accounting or accommodation made for this gross disadvantage? Or is anyone who doesn't use one just relegated to being rated much lower in the face of masses who do, so that players self-segregate, in effect? Or is it that everyone does but no one says so publicly? Or does no one know? All of those alternatives seem rather unpleasant to me.


In ICCF it's perfectly legal and there is no stigma attached to it.  Anyone is at liberty to play without computer assistance there as well.  I think it's a shame that those who wish to play without a computer have trouble doing so, but the prevalence of computers in CC attests to the greater popularity of this form of competition.  There is no effective way to police it, in my opinion, in any case.  I don't think that a very strong case has been made for using computers to detect computerized play.  When some of the chief practitioners of this came into this forum to defend it, they didn't seem to understand they statistical principles that would have to underly any attempt to do it.

USCF makes a big deal about banning computers, but when I played there, it was clear to me that many of my opponents were using them.  When I took up playing with computer assistance myself, I stopped playing CC on USCF.  However, I am rather sure that many others play there with computers.  If I'm not mistaken, there is a US player, with the CCIM title from ICCF, and who regularly plays CC on USCF and maintains a very high rating, yet who only took up chess in his 50s.  I just about fell out of my chair when that fact was reported, with a straight face so to speak, in Chess Life.  If he's not using a computer even on USCF I would be very surprised indeed; yet here is Chess Life, the Federation's journal, crowing about him.  But that's between him, his opponents and USCF; I'm not going to wring my hands over it. 

As I have said before, I do play with computer assistance in some venues where computers are banned but play is anonymous.  You can tell from the very high level of play by many players there, and their maintaining a very extensive list of ongoing games against strong opponents, that they're playing with computers.  Call me and these others cheats if you wish, but I can't see that it's skin off anyone's nose if "CaptainKidd" beats "SnowWhite" using a computer.  Nothing is at stake.  If SnowWhite doesn't want to play a pirate, she should go to a serious CC site and play under her real name. 

I know this point of view makes some people angry, and I frankly don't care.  I simply don't respect the rules of these crap anonymous CC sites enough to deprive myself of the opportunity to play the game I want to play.  When my opponent and I both play under our true names, then I do obey the rules, out of respect for him or her. 

  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #10 - 03/06/11 at 13:44:14
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MNb wrote on 03/06/11 at 13:24:20:
That's not entirely true - only with a delay of three moves.

Not sure about that - I think this is about "Live Games" on the http://www.iccf-webchess.com/ and not what you are allowed to do with your own running games - I could post a possible position (e.g. the end of an opening analysis here) - but this not "live"
I am very unsure Undecided
  
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MNb
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #9 - 03/06/11 at 13:24:20
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Matemax wrote on 03/06/11 at 12:41:05:
Even posting your games here or sending them to the moon  Wink

That's not entirely true - only with a delay of three moves.

http://www.iccf.com/rules/ICCFTournamentRules01-01-2011.pdf

Article 11.

Several years ago Dutch federation NBC send a letter in which using computers in old-fashioned postal chess was forbidden, but ICCF seems to have not taken this over.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #8 - 03/06/11 at 12:45:20
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Matemax wrote on 03/06/11 at 12:35:53:
ReneDescartes wrote on 03/06/11 at 12:23:52:
Doesn't that leave a situation where some players don't use computers while others do, yet there is no accounting or accommodation made for this gross disadvantage? Or is anyone who doesn't use one just relegated to being rated much lower in the face of masses who do, so that players self-segregate, in effect? Or is it that everyone does but no one says so publicly? Or does no one know? All of those alternatives seem rather unpleasant to me.

Indeed (and this really astonishes me) some players don't use computers on ICCF - I played some corr. games where I simply won after some 15 moves cause my opponent blundered a piece.

As a matter of fact you have to use a computer on ICCF to compete - and if only for blunder check. I don't want to start a new discussion here about using comps and if only comps play the games, if people with stronger engines win and so on - certainly corr. chess is more a mastery of analysis than playing the game. And if you invest more time in this analysis you have better chances to win - I once read in a New in Chess Yearbook that a corr. player spent 200 hours on 1 move!

I am a working person, who plays otb and corr. chess - I know that my success is limited by various factors, but my fun not!


Corr chess is obviously a completely different kettle of fish compared to OTB chess, and the role of the players are quite different.

One could for example compare it to football: otb = being a player on the field, while corr = being the coach of the team. The big difference is that most coaches will have Messi, Ronaldo and Zlatan in their teams, but you still need to use them right to win...
  
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