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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Correspondence Chess Websites? (Read 16900 times)
Göran
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #37 - 12/18/12 at 14:13:08
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Yes, the tournament is;

LSS Two-Game-Matches 20 days Basic plus 2 days per move with vacation 14 Days per Tournament/year. It is Double Round Robin (means one opponent)
  

What kind of proof is that?
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fling
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #36 - 12/18/12 at 13:39:12
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Yes, Vass, the people here are usually friendly and helpful, thanks againg Smiley

Anyway, I am thinking about it, but not sure. I just want to play maybe 2 games at a time. It seems like LSS and ICCF mainly have tournaments and I don't have time for that right not. But I haven't had a closer look. Based on what Hacker just posted, it seems as if there are two-game matches available too.

  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #35 - 12/18/12 at 12:23:08
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fling, if you need an advice for choosing a server/site for your future cc tries, you know we're here.  Wink
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #34 - 12/18/12 at 11:59:59
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Hacker, yes, I actually noticed that after my last post. Thanks for answering!
  
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Göran
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #33 - 12/18/12 at 10:19:01
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I am playing on both ICCF and LSS and both allows computers. E.g. take a look at the Tournament types on LSS:
Tournament Types
Quote:
LSS Anniversary Tournament
The LSS Masters Tournaments
LSS Open Tournaments
The LSS No Engine C
LSS Pyramid
LSS Two-Game-Matches
LSS Chess960 Standardtournaments
IECG World Championships
IECG Cups
IECG Server Tournaments
IECG Rapid Tournaments
The IECG Level Schemes
Chessfriend.com Tournaments


My interpretation is that "not ban" equals "allow" (iccf).
  

What kind of proof is that?
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fling
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #32 - 12/18/12 at 08:53:36
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trw wrote on 03/10/11 at 06:27:47:
kevinfat wrote on 03/10/11 at 02:34:30:
So is the concensus that only www.ficgs.com officially allows computers?


The only site that doesn't allow computers is the uscf. ficgs, iccf, iecg, lss, netchess, and all the rest do.


Wait, I am really confused. I thought it was mentioned here that iecg, iccf and lss don't ban computer use. In one reply it even says LSS allows computer assistance.

I am thinking of trying some cc but want to know at what server to start.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #31 - 03/11/11 at 07:31:59
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/11/11 at 00:53:25:
TalJechin wrote on 03/10/11 at 22:02:23:
[quote author=7D5144555D5148300 link=1299365085/21#21 date=1299742565]
As comparison, try to imagine an OTB berger-tournament where all players are forbidden to prepare for their games in the tournament...


I think a better analogy is an OTB tournament where people are allowed to use computers as they're playing.

IMO correspondance games when allowing engines in this day and age aren't competitive in any sense. Maybe they are like writing a story, but there's no competition in it.

I don't believe in a good cc player vs a bad cc player when both players have Rybka left on for as long as possible and the only inaccuracies they make are when they don't agree with Rybka's first choice.


In OTB it's the preps that scare people off their favourite openings and in a way 'spoils the game' as you can't simply play knowing that there may be prepared snags in all your favourite lines...
Some players are even getting a bit paranoid about it. And just imagine how valuable a prep would be if your opponent's haven't been allowed to prep. Especially since it's impossible to prove that someone has prepped.

As for your other statement, I still believe in my football-coach analogy. As an experiment, you could try to play against a corr game against rybka, being yourself assisted by rybka and other engines, and if you're anything of a chessplayer at all, you'd win. Corr is a lot about long term risk evaluation, which is not a factor for any engine I know.
  
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trw
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #30 - 03/11/11 at 06:53:07
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MNb wrote on 03/11/11 at 03:59:32:
Gambit wrote on 03/10/11 at 08:28:28:
What is your opinion, ladies and gentlemen?

That you can be a very sensible guy if you want to.
I agree completely with you.
Now just remind: when I am discussing all kind of gambit lines, I am always wondering: would I lose with them if I tried them in corr. chess?  Wink



I have played about 100 games of gambit lines in corr with white and black. I've only lost once so far. But many many draws. I often end up in pawn down endgames that are drawn. But sometimes you get scorching wins  Cool
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #29 - 03/11/11 at 03:59:32
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Gambit wrote on 03/10/11 at 08:28:28:
What is your opinion, ladies and gentlemen?

That you can be a very sensible guy if you want to.
I agree completely with you.
Now just remind: when I am discussing all kind of gambit lines, I am always wondering: would I lose with them if I tried them in corr. chess?  Wink
  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #28 - 03/11/11 at 01:30:38
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/11/11 at 00:53:25:
TalJechin wrote on 03/10/11 at 22:02:23:
[quote author=7D5144555D5148300 link=1299365085/21#21 date=1299742565]
As comparison, try to imagine an OTB berger-tournament where all players are forbidden to prepare for their games in the tournament...


I think a better analogy is an OTB tournament where people are allowed to use computers as they're playing.

IMO correspondance games when allowing engines in this day and age aren't competitive in any sense. Maybe they are like writing a story, but there's no competition in it.

I don't believe in a good cc player vs a bad cc player when both players have Rybka left on for as long as possible and the only inaccuracies they make are when they don't agree with Rybka's first choice.


Oh, I don't know about that. I still win plenty of games, and take extreme satisfaction not from the win or the competition but rather the creative energy that went into my opening preparation, the novelty as and when I can spring one, and the successful middlegame plan devised before consulting (or after rejecting) a chess engine's assistance. I like chess and I enjoy deep analysis. The computer might be whirring in the background, but I still have a board in front of me, and I can spend hours bouncing pieces all over the board. I'm endlessly fascinated by chess' rich possibilities in ways I don't think it's possible to appreciate in OTB tournaments or weekly games at the club. Not better, just different. And I like correspondence chess (just wish I had more time for it).
  

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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #27 - 03/11/11 at 00:53:25
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TalJechin wrote on 03/10/11 at 22:02:23:
[quote author=7D5144555D5148300 link=1299365085/21#21 date=1299742565]
As comparison, try to imagine an OTB berger-tournament where all players are forbidden to prepare for their games in the tournament...


I think a better analogy is an OTB tournament where people are allowed to use computers as they're playing.

IMO correspondance games when allowing engines in this day and age aren't competitive in any sense. Maybe they are like writing a story, but there's no competition in it.

I don't believe in a good cc player vs a bad cc player when both players have Rybka left on for as long as possible and the only inaccuracies they make are when they don't agree with Rybka's first choice.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #26 - 03/10/11 at 22:02:23
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Matemax wrote on 03/10/11 at 07:36:05:
whatteaux wrote on 03/10/11 at 07:27:59:
[quote author=25323529262022470 link=1299365085/19#19 date=1299738467][quote author=7A736E7770797D7A1C0 link=1299365085/15#15 date=1299724470]You may analyze games with chess engines after they are finished. You may consult chess books or game/move databases at any time.

That's the crux of this method. On chess.com there are a lot of people with really absurd ratings (now the corrected them a bit - but there were people with 3.200!). How can that be? Are they cheating? I say "NO!" within the above formula (which is the same for chess.com), because they surely analyse their openings well with books, databases and the comp (if the position is known, it should be allowed!), analysis sample games ("might be variation"), make a tree of them and then play their moves seemingly without the comp. Once they are beyond the opening with a stable plus, they don't need the comp assistance anymore.

Despite I play on chess.com, too (mostly Thematic Tourneys - to test the chesspub.variations!) I think that it's much easier to simply allow all assistance. There is a lot of discussion about cheating - but where does opening analysis end (what if I already had the line analised years ago?)

"Free the engines!"  Grin


Agreed!

As comparison, try to imagine an OTB berger-tournament where all players are forbidden to prepare for their games in the tournament...
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #25 - 03/10/11 at 21:29:27
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Does chess.com's correspondence server have strong competition?
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #24 - 03/10/11 at 19:34:10
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #23 - 03/10/11 at 19:04:28
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Using computers in ICCF is allowed. It might not say so directly in the rules, but the ICCF stand is that what is not forbidden is allowed. And since the rules do not forbid using a computer it is allowed.

The same goes for the  former IECG, now known as the Lechenicher SchachServer that has taken over all IECG activities.

  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #22 - 03/10/11 at 08:28:28
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Interesting point. Way I see it, using computers in correspondence chess is one thing, in OTB chess, quite another. So say, for sake of argument, that Joe used a computer in correspondence chess, while Harry used the same in OTB chess. Then Harry is a cheat, because you cannot consult a computer while playing an OTB opponent. OTB chess is more enforceable on the spot than correspondence chess.

Thus, correspondence chess is more about analysis of moves over a longer time period than over-the-board chess. That said, it seems like you can use a computer
to help you in correspondence chess, while the same cannot be said of OTB  chess.

Suppose then, that I was playing in corr. game that involved the Marshall Gambit in the Ruy Lopez or the Sicilian Defense, Dragon Variation. Using your own analyses and a computer would not be considered cheating here, correct? After all, these lines can go 20-30 moves deep, and you need to triple-check the analyses.

Now if someone did that in an over-the-board game (as opposed to an adjourned game), a howl of protest would ensue. A case in point would be the infamous example of a player using a computer at the World Open in USA, some years back. He was getting the moves through the headphones. Of course the guy was forfeited and ejected from the tournament.

Anyone here remember that little incident? What is your opinion, ladies and gentlemen?
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #21 - 03/10/11 at 07:36:05
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whatteaux wrote on 03/10/11 at 07:27:59:
[quote author=25323529262022470 link=1299365085/19#19 date=1299738467][quote author=7A736E7770797D7A1C0 link=1299365085/15#15 date=1299724470]You may analyze games with chess engines after they are finished. You may consult chess books or game/move databases at any time.

That's the crux of this method. On chess.com there are a lot of people with really absurd ratings (now the corrected them a bit - but there were people with 3.200!). How can that be? Are they cheating? I say "NO!" within the above formula (which is the same for chess.com), because they surely analyse their openings well with books, databases and the comp (if the position is known, it should be allowed!), analysis sample games ("might be variation"), make a tree of them and then play their moves seemingly without the comp. Once they are beyond the opening with a stable plus, they don't need the comp assistance anymore.

Despite I play on chess.com, too (mostly Thematic Tourneys - to test the chesspub.variations!) I think that it's much easier to simply allow all assistance. There is a lot of discussion about cheating - but where does opening analysis end (what if I already had the line analised years ago?)

"Free the engines!"  Grin
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #20 - 03/10/11 at 07:27:59
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trw wrote on 03/10/11 at 06:27:47:
kevinfat wrote on 03/10/11 at 02:34:30:
So is the concensus that only www.ficgs.com officially allows computers?


The only site that doesn't allow computers is the uscf. ficgs, iccf, iecg, lss, netchess, and all the rest do.


FWIW, GameKnot also forbids the use of computers. ("You may not use chess engines nor chess computers to help you decide your next move. You may not consult with anyone nor ask for advice about any of your games in progress (nor provide such advice to other GameKnot players about their games in progress, whether solicited or not). You may analyze games with chess engines after they are finished. You may consult chess books or game/move databases at any time.")
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #19 - 03/10/11 at 06:27:47
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kevinfat wrote on 03/10/11 at 02:34:30:
So is the concensus that only www.ficgs.com officially allows computers?


The only site that doesn't allow computers is the uscf. ficgs, iccf, iecg, lss, netchess, and all the rest do.
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #18 - 03/10/11 at 03:52:34
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kevinfat wrote on 03/10/11 at 02:34:30:
So is the concensus that only www.ficgs.com officially allows computers?

No.
Matemax asked an ICCF-official and got the answer that any source is allowed to decide what move you will play, including a Kasparov consult. It's well known that Joop van Oosterom got help from amongst others Korchnoi, Timman and Piket. It's also well known that before 1991 Soviet-Russian players consisted of whole teams. ICCF never undertook actions against it, not even pro-form.
Play for ICCF, consult your computer and nobody will bother you, even if you admit it explicitly. What more allowance do you want?
  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #17 - 03/10/11 at 03:16:18
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@RenesDescartes: Well unlike you, my dear chessfrend, I actually play CC. What is it, I wonder, that gratifies you about wringing your hands over a pursuit in which you don't engage? I would have thought that so much rectitude would have been sufficient unto itself, without anyone's having to come here and pat himself on the back in a public forum on account of it.

Don't like CC? Fine, don't play it.
  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #16 - 03/10/11 at 03:01:37
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/07/11 at 04:25:38:
Markovich wrote on 03/06/11 at 15:17:26:
[quote author=497E757E5F7E68787A696F7E681B0 link=129936508i5/4#4 date=1299414232]

Call me and these others cheats if you wish, but I can't see that it's skin off anyone's nose if "CaptainKidd" beats "SnowWhite" using a computer.  Nothing is at stake.  If SnowWhite doesn't want to play a pirate, she should go to a serious CC site and play under her real name. 

I know this point of view makes some people angry, and I frankly don't care.  I simply don't respect the rules of these crap anonymous CC sites enough to deprive myself of the opportunity to play the game I want to play.  When my opponent and I both play under our true names, then I do obey the rules, out of respect for him or her. 

 
What about respect for anonymous people? They're human beings deserving of respect as well.
   
What's wrong with it? It's a lie, lies hurt people. You damage their information in life. You've sleighted someone. You might suppose their perspective and their world views to be inferior to yours, and declare what they: "should do instead of hurr durr anonymous names silly lol".
   


I'm afraid I don't have much respect for anonymous people, and that includes you. If you don't like it, you can come and see me about it, and so can all the anonymous people of this world, for that matter. My identity is well known here.
  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #15 - 03/10/11 at 02:34:30
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So is the concensus that only www.ficgs.com officially allows computers?
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #14 - 03/07/11 at 04:25:38
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Markovich wrote on 03/06/11 at 15:17:26:
[quote author=497E757E5F7E68787A696F7E681B0 link=1299365085/4#4 date=1299414232]

Call me and these others cheats if you wish, but I can't see that it's skin off anyone's nose if "CaptainKidd" beats "SnowWhite" using a computer.  Nothing is at stake.  If SnowWhite doesn't want to play a pirate, she should go to a serious CC site and play under her real name. 

I know this point of view makes some people angry, and I frankly don't care.  I simply don't respect the rules of these crap anonymous CC sites enough to deprive myself of the opportunity to play the game I want to play.  When my opponent and I both play under our true names, then I do obey the rules, out of respect for him or her. 

 
What about respect for anonymous people? They're human beings deserving of respect as well.
   
What's wrong with it? It's a lie, lies hurt people. You damage their information in life. You've sleighted someone. You might suppose their perspective and their world views to be inferior to yours, and declare what they: "should do instead of hurr durr anonymous names silly lol".
   
« Last Edit: 03/07/11 at 18:21:15 by Uhohspaghettio »  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #13 - 03/06/11 at 20:32:41
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http://lss.chess-server.net/

This is a free server where you have cc with engines and if you want some engine free tournaments. It continues the iecg tournaments.
  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #12 - 03/06/11 at 18:10:08
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This is from Emerson's journals (Sept. 1842):

White lies. It shall be the law of this society that no member shall be reckoned a liar who is a sportsman, and indicates the wrong place when asked where he shot his partridge;[...] or who is an author, and being asked if he wrote an anonymous book, replies in the negative.

Ghost (under the floor). It shall not be the law.
« Last Edit: 03/07/11 at 02:00:34 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #11 - 03/06/11 at 15:17:26
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ReneDescartes wrote on 03/06/11 at 12:23:52:
Doesn't that leave a situation where some players don't use computers while others do, yet there is no accounting or accommodation made for this gross disadvantage? Or is anyone who doesn't use one just relegated to being rated much lower in the face of masses who do, so that players self-segregate, in effect? Or is it that everyone does but no one says so publicly? Or does no one know? All of those alternatives seem rather unpleasant to me.


In ICCF it's perfectly legal and there is no stigma attached to it.  Anyone is at liberty to play without computer assistance there as well.  I think it's a shame that those who wish to play without a computer have trouble doing so, but the prevalence of computers in CC attests to the greater popularity of this form of competition.  There is no effective way to police it, in my opinion, in any case.  I don't think that a very strong case has been made for using computers to detect computerized play.  When some of the chief practitioners of this came into this forum to defend it, they didn't seem to understand they statistical principles that would have to underly any attempt to do it.

USCF makes a big deal about banning computers, but when I played there, it was clear to me that many of my opponents were using them.  When I took up playing with computer assistance myself, I stopped playing CC on USCF.  However, I am rather sure that many others play there with computers.  If I'm not mistaken, there is a US player, with the CCIM title from ICCF, and who regularly plays CC on USCF and maintains a very high rating, yet who only took up chess in his 50s.  I just about fell out of my chair when that fact was reported, with a straight face so to speak, in Chess Life.  If he's not using a computer even on USCF I would be very surprised indeed; yet here is Chess Life, the Federation's journal, crowing about him.  But that's between him, his opponents and USCF; I'm not going to wring my hands over it. 

As I have said before, I do play with computer assistance in some venues where computers are banned but play is anonymous.  You can tell from the very high level of play by many players there, and their maintaining a very extensive list of ongoing games against strong opponents, that they're playing with computers.  Call me and these others cheats if you wish, but I can't see that it's skin off anyone's nose if "CaptainKidd" beats "SnowWhite" using a computer.  Nothing is at stake.  If SnowWhite doesn't want to play a pirate, she should go to a serious CC site and play under her real name. 

I know this point of view makes some people angry, and I frankly don't care.  I simply don't respect the rules of these crap anonymous CC sites enough to deprive myself of the opportunity to play the game I want to play.  When my opponent and I both play under our true names, then I do obey the rules, out of respect for him or her. 

  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #10 - 03/06/11 at 13:44:14
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MNb wrote on 03/06/11 at 13:24:20:
That's not entirely true - only with a delay of three moves.

Not sure about that - I think this is about "Live Games" on the http://www.iccf-webchess.com/ and not what you are allowed to do with your own running games - I could post a possible position (e.g. the end of an opening analysis here) - but this not "live"
I am very unsure Undecided
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #9 - 03/06/11 at 13:24:20
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Matemax wrote on 03/06/11 at 12:41:05:
Even posting your games here or sending them to the moon  Wink

That's not entirely true - only with a delay of three moves.

http://www.iccf.com/rules/ICCFTournamentRules01-01-2011.pdf

Article 11.

Several years ago Dutch federation NBC send a letter in which using computers in old-fashioned postal chess was forbidden, but ICCF seems to have not taken this over.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TalJechin
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #8 - 03/06/11 at 12:45:20
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Matemax wrote on 03/06/11 at 12:35:53:
ReneDescartes wrote on 03/06/11 at 12:23:52:
Doesn't that leave a situation where some players don't use computers while others do, yet there is no accounting or accommodation made for this gross disadvantage? Or is anyone who doesn't use one just relegated to being rated much lower in the face of masses who do, so that players self-segregate, in effect? Or is it that everyone does but no one says so publicly? Or does no one know? All of those alternatives seem rather unpleasant to me.

Indeed (and this really astonishes me) some players don't use computers on ICCF - I played some corr. games where I simply won after some 15 moves cause my opponent blundered a piece.

As a matter of fact you have to use a computer on ICCF to compete - and if only for blunder check. I don't want to start a new discussion here about using comps and if only comps play the games, if people with stronger engines win and so on - certainly corr. chess is more a mastery of analysis than playing the game. And if you invest more time in this analysis you have better chances to win - I once read in a New in Chess Yearbook that a corr. player spent 200 hours on 1 move!

I am a working person, who plays otb and corr. chess - I know that my success is limited by various factors, but my fun not!


Corr chess is obviously a completely different kettle of fish compared to OTB chess, and the role of the players are quite different.

One could for example compare it to football: otb = being a player on the field, while corr = being the coach of the team. The big difference is that most coaches will have Messi, Ronaldo and Zlatan in their teams, but you still need to use them right to win...
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #7 - 03/06/11 at 12:41:05
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TalJechin wrote on 03/06/11 at 12:36:46:
Do the rules mention anything about whether consulting books and databases, or discussing positions with friends etc are allowed?

Or for that matter, do the rules mention if it's allowed to sit down while you ponder your move? There could be people who are still standing up while analysing and that might affect their performance negatively...

I asked my national delegate at ICCF about this - anything is allowed. Even posting your games here or sending them to the moon  Wink
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #6 - 03/06/11 at 12:36:46
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Do the rules mention anything about whether consulting books and databases, or discussing positions with friends etc are allowed?

Or for that matter, do the rules mention if it's allowed to sit down while you ponder your move? There could be people who are still standing up while analysing and that might affect their performance negatively...
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #5 - 03/06/11 at 12:35:53
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ReneDescartes wrote on 03/06/11 at 12:23:52:
Doesn't that leave a situation where some players don't use computers while others do, yet there is no accounting or accommodation made for this gross disadvantage? Or is anyone who doesn't use one just relegated to being rated much lower in the face of masses who do, so that players self-segregate, in effect? Or is it that everyone does but no one says so publicly? Or does no one know? All of those alternatives seem rather unpleasant to me.

Indeed (and this really astonishes me) some players don't use computers on ICCF - I played some corr. games where I simply won after some 15 moves cause my opponent blundered a piece.

As a matter of fact you have to use a computer on ICCF to compete - and if only for blunder check. I don't want to start a new discussion here about using comps and if only comps play the games, if people with stronger engines win and so on - certainly corr. chess is more a mastery of analysis than playing the game. And if you invest more time in this analysis you have better chances to win - I once read in a New in Chess Yearbook that a corr. player spent 200 hours on 1 move!

I am a working person, who plays otb and corr. chess - I know that my success is limited by various factors, but my fun not!
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #4 - 03/06/11 at 12:23:52
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Doesn't that leave a situation where some players don't use computers while others do, yet there is no accounting or accommodation made for this gross disadvantage? Or is anyone who doesn't use one just relegated to being rated much lower in the face of masses who do, so that players self-segregate, in effect? Or is it that everyone does but no one says so publicly? Or does no one know? All of those alternatives seem rather unpleasant to me.
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #3 - 03/06/11 at 11:37:21
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kevinfat wrote on 03/06/11 at 04:48:56:
You sure that iccf allows computers? I heard that they don't allow computers but don't make any effort to offically enforce no computers.


ICCF rules make no mention of computers at all.

Presumably because:
a) to ban them would be pointless since it would be completely unenforceable.
b) to say that players can use computers would seem to be encouraging them.
  

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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #2 - 03/06/11 at 04:48:56
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MNb wrote on 03/06/11 at 03:06:46:
That's weird, because the thread on the chesspub team is not that far away. And we play at the biggest corr chess server around:

http://www.iccf-webchess.com/

You sure that iccf allows computers? I heard that they don't allow computers but don't make any effort to offically enforce no computers.
  
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Re: Correspondence Chess Websites?
Reply #1 - 03/06/11 at 03:06:46
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That's weird, because the thread on the chesspub team is not that far away. And we play at the biggest corr chess server around:

http://www.iccf-webchess.com/
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Correspondence Chess Websites?
03/05/11 at 22:44:45
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What is a comprehensive list of correspondence websites which allow computers?

I know of only www.ficgs.com
  
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