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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!? (Read 20480 times)
Keano
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #18 - 08/06/11 at 19:53:09
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/05/11 at 21:49:39:
[quote author=64674B290 link=1299427560/15#15 date=1312578038]
Ludek Pachman published an article (1973?) in Schach-Archiv on 6...e6, the mistake 6...c4? was mentioned in passing (just trusting what older sources like Euwe had said). A young S. Bücker studied c4 in detail and liked this bold gambit very much (I still do). What a disappointment when 1974 Pachman published the game Milner-Barry vs Kottnauer, 1974. Black won in splendid style in 29 moves. In his comment Pachman explains in great detail why Black must have full compensation, at least, for the pawn. Since then the move 6...c4 is called "Kottnauer Gambit". I decided to move on to a less crowded place, an SI sub-variation only a few times tried out by unknown young players from Chelyabinsk.


Interesting - it does indeed look sound. I suppose in retrospect White should play 6.d3!? then instead of the hyper-aggressive Qh5. And I take it you moved on to little known Sveshnikov?  Wink


Djy wrote on 08/06/11 at 09:13:48:

4.-c6 is passive (Typical a Alhékine player move) Scandinavian's player's go for: 4.-Bg4 immediaty is better 5.Be2 Nc6! 7.0-0 e6 8.d4 Be7 and it's reach a standard scadinavian position with Nc3 instead of the more critical c4
Another active way is 4.-Nc3 5.bc3 g6 6.Nf3 Bg7 withe idea c5 after 0-0.
it's easy to fall asleep when white don't put the pression but it's thrue that those positions are not drawish at all so problems are coming after...


Yes ...c6 without being forced looked odd, I like 4...Bg4 myself there also - like someone else said its just a game of chess. 4. Bc4 does seem like a more optimal move-order if White is going in for this exd5 stuff. 
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #17 - 08/06/11 at 09:13:48
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Keano wrote on 08/05/11 at 15:57:35:


Mamedov-Kovalenko 2011:
1. e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. exd5 Nxd5 4. Nf3 c6 5. d4 Bg4 6. Be2 e6 7. O-O Be7 8. Ne4 O-O 9. h3 Bf5 10. Ng3 Bg6 11. Ne5 Nd7 12. Nxg6 hxg6 13. c4 N5f6 14. Bf4 Re8 15. Bf3 Qb6 16. c5 Qd8 17. Qb3 .....1-0 in 60 moves

4.-c6 is passive (Typical a Alhékine player move) Scandinavian's player's go for: 4.-Bg4 immediaty is better 5.Be2 Nc6! 7.0-0 e6 8.d4 Be7 and it's reach a standard scadinavian position with Nc3 instead of the more critical c4
Another active way is 4.-Nc3 5.bc3 g6 6.Nf3 Bg7 withe idea c5 after 0-0.
it's easy to fall asleep when white don't put the pression but it's thrue that those positions are not drawish at all so problems are coming after...
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #16 - 08/05/11 at 21:49:39
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MNb wrote on 08/05/11 at 21:00:38:
kylemeister wrote on 08/05/11 at 16:43:51:
It's not as though there is nothing to be found in books on such lines.

Given almost 50 pages on this variation by Siebenhaar/Delnef/Ottstadt in their 1986 book on the Alekhine I subscribe this.
They think 6...c4 insufficient because of  Milner Barry-Kottnauer, 1974 and also conclude that White is better after investigating 6...e6 7.d3.

Ludek Pachman published an article (1973?) in Schach-Archiv on 6...e6, the mistake 6...c4? was mentioned in passing (just trusting what older sources like Euwe had said). A young S. Bücker studied c4 in detail and liked this bold gambit very much (I still do). What a disappointment when 1974 Pachman published the game Milner-Barry vs Kottnauer, 1974. Black won in splendid style in 29 moves. In his comment Pachman explains in great detail why Black must have full compensation, at least, for the pawn. Since then the move 6...c4 is called "Kottnauer Gambit". I decided to move on to a less crowded place, an SI sub-variation only a few times tried out by unknown young players from Chelyabinsk.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #15 - 08/05/11 at 21:00:38
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kylemeister wrote on 08/05/11 at 16:43:51:
It's not as though there is nothing to be found in books on such lines.

Given almost 50 pages on this variation by Siebenhaar/Delnef/Ottstadt in their 1986 book on the Alekhine I subscribe this.
They think 6...c4 insufficient because of  Milner Barry-Kottnauer, 1974 and also conclude that White is better after investigating 6...e6 7.d3.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #14 - 08/05/11 at 16:43:51
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It's not as though there is nothing to be found in books on such lines.  For example, it seemed to me that maybe 4. Bc4 Nb6 5. Bb3 c5 6. Qh5 has been considered promising for White since the days of Eales and Williams or so.  I see that ECO gave only 6...e6 and had White getting a slight advantage, while NCO thought Black could get approximately sufficient compensation with 6...c4.  On 4. Nf3 NCO gave 4...Nxc3 5. bc g6, with a few variations (ending as equal, unclear or with compensation).
  
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Keano
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #13 - 08/05/11 at 15:57:35
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Markovich wrote on 03/06/11 at 16:06:00:
I consider this continuation to be, well, umm, not very challenging.  But lately while building a MySQL database to support a website for the Alekhine Defense Working Group, I've had to take a hard look at transpositions into the defense.  And I've been struck by how many of transpositions into the subject variation, which is classified as Alekhine's in the ECO schema, come via 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nc3!?.  Does White, contrary to my preconception, actually have anything?  It seems quite remarkable to me if he does.  Maybe it's just that I'm working with a very big set of raw data and I'm including games with player ratings as low as 2000.  

But even so the rate of occurrence of this seems surprisingly high.



In my Alekhine playing days which are long done for I'm afraid I always regarded this line as completely harmless, mainly due to the fact it kept being played by very low rated players I suppose. I suppose objectively though it must be ever so slightly easier for White to handle, and there is no theory. Mamedov (2660) won a recent game just by "playing chess" - Nf3 followed by d4:

Mamedov-Kovalenko 2011:
1. e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. exd5 Nxd5 4. Nf3 c6 5. d4 Bg4 6. Be2 e6 7. O-O Be7 8. Ne4 O-O 9. h3 Bf5 10. Ng3 Bg6 11. Ne5 Nd7 12. Nxg6 hxg6 13. c4 N5f6 14. Bf4 Re8 15. Bf3 Qb6 16. c5 Qd8 17. Qb3 .....1-0 in 60 moves

Another idea I noticed was 4.Bc4 Nb6 5.Bb3 Nc6 6.a4!? a5 7.d3 when I prefer to play White even if he has no theoretical advantage, but 5...c5!? might be a spanner in the works so maybe the simplest is the 4.Nf3 idea and depending on Blacks reply d4 or g3.

Having said all that.... 3.e5! must be best.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #12 - 03/25/11 at 12:24:27
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I have been a long-time fan of exd5, followed by Qf3. There are many lines where White can sac a pawn (often the d-pawn) for an initiative. After 4. ... Nxc3; 5.Bc4 e6; then all 3 captures are playable depending on your mood - but bxc3 often results in a kingside hack against weaker opposition.

I now tend to play the Varonezh against Alekhines and kee pthis for Scandanavian's with Nf6.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #11 - 03/23/11 at 03:35:18
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Mythos wrote on 03/22/11 at 21:22:51:
I'm new to the Alekhine, and I get 2.Nc3 more often than anything else (online at least). 3.exd5 probably isn't that great for White, but it often gives Black a Caro or Scandinavian type of structure/game. I do play those openings, but getting these structures is not why I chose to take up the Alekhine as a new weapon.


Really, you should play the best move on the board and after 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 that is 2...e5!

If you get 2.Nc3 so often, ask yourself how many of those opponents would meet 1.e4 e5 with 2.Nc3? The fact is that most people who play 2.Nc3 know nothing about the Vienna or Four Knights. I have had people sink into thought on move 3. As long as you avoid the really hairy stuff like the Frankenstein-Dracula variation, there isn't that much to learn. You will also get to play the elementary fork trick 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.Bc4 Nxe4 shockingly frequently.

  
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #10 - 03/22/11 at 23:42:41
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Mythos wrote on 03/22/11 at 21:22:51:
I'm new to the Alekhine, and I get 2.Nc3 more often than anything else (online at least). 3.exd5 probably isn't that great for White, but it often gives Black a Caro or Scandinavian type of structure/game. I do play those openings, but getting these structures is not why I chose to take up the Alekhine as a new weapon.


There's always 2...e5.  Wink

The position after 3...Nxd5 could be considered the best of both worlds. After the moves ...Bf5, ...e6 and ...Nc6, you have a Caro-Kann where you haven't wasted a tempo on ...c6, and a Scandinavian where Black hasn't wasted tempi with his queen and White's knight isn't well placed on c3. 

In some variations Black can also develop his queen's bishop to g4.
  

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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #9 - 03/22/11 at 21:22:51
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I'm new to the Alekhine, and I get 2.Nc3 more often than anything else (online at least). 3.exd5 probably isn't that great for White, but it often gives Black a Caro or Scandinavian type of structure/game. I do play those openings, but getting these structures is not why I chose to take up the Alekhine as a new weapon.
  

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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #8 - 03/14/11 at 13:24:04
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Spot on ! It is in fact a Scandinavian, rather than...
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #7 - 03/13/11 at 20:35:27
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Quote:
which is classified as Alekhine's in the ECO schema


nyoke wrote on 03/13/11 at 07:15:04:

Classifications are funny, aren't they ?

I mean, this is the main line "Van Geet" : 1.Nc3, d5 and so on...

The funniest thing is that Van Geet, after whom that main line is named, wasn't even born yet when 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5 was played for the first time. Not to mention the fact that the first games actually began as a Scandinavian: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nc3.
  

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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #6 - 03/13/11 at 19:32:05
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Yes, I used the TWIC downloads to make an Alekhine cbh file of 2010 and when using the opening reference option of CB I noticed a few "odd" original moves. I thought that by mistake I had included some
wromg games. Then, iI noticed that they were transpositions to an Alekhine, including the  Van Geet.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #5 - 03/13/11 at 07:15:04
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Quote:
which is classified as Alekhine's in the ECO schema


Classifications are funny, aren't they ?

I mean, this is the main line "Van Geet" : 1.Nc3, d5 and so on...
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.exd5!?
Reply #4 - 03/09/11 at 14:41:34
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Markovich wrote on 03/06/11 at 16:06:00:
I consider this continuation to be, well, umm, not very challenging.  But lately while building a MySQL database to support a website for the Alekhine Defense Working Group, I've had to take a hard look at transpositions into the defense.  And I've been struck by how many of transpositions into the subject variation, which is classified as Alekhine's in the ECO schema, come via 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nc3!?.  Does White, contrary to my preconception, actually have anything?  It seems quite remarkable to me if he does.  Maybe it's just that I'm working with a very big set of raw data and I'm including games with player ratings as low as 2000.  

But even so the rate of occurrence of this seems surprisingly high.


Since I took part in a game featuring this very line in a recent book on Alekhine (Bogdanov) and lost, I would like to share my impressions regarding this line. IMHO, from a theoretical perspective white does indeed not have anything. The position is quite rich though, and it is possible for either player to try to achieve something, i e the evaluation is probably "equal", but not stale equality as in "a very probable draw". I also think that this line is a typical practical escape route for white players surprised with the Alekhine and wanting to avoid theory. From that perspective it makes a lot of sense, since it is a position you can play reasonably well on sight. Hence possibly its popularity.
  
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