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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order (Read 24778 times)
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #20 - 06/22/11 at 04:44:37
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So I've taken up the King's Indian, and I have Play the King's indian, a database, and limited study time.  Gallagher is into the all-6.c5-all-the-time strategy, which suits me since I have a Benoni background anyway (My first 1.d4 defense).  Question is, at my level (say 2000ish), can I expect every 1.d4 player to know the Samisch pawn sacrifice cold and grind me down with 20 moves of Bologan's analysis?  I'd rather play something more flexible if that is the case, although the Panno does not really appeal (I try to avoid lines where dxe5 is a winning try for white)...
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & move order
Reply #19 - 03/13/11 at 18:13:12
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Great post, TN.  Some thoughts and comments below.

TN wrote on 03/09/11 at 12:14:22:
The reason the Samisch isn't played as much as the Classical at the top is because practice has shown that Black can draw in the pawn sacrifice line with a bit of precision. Wang Yue tried this out a few times with White, but his game against Radjabov put him off the line, even though he won the game.


All true, but the verdict is still out on the pawn sacrifice.  10.Nge2 has emerged as White's best try.  10..b6 was Radjabov's choice in the aforementioned game and Schipkov in CBM 139 considers it Black's best continuation.  After 11.Ba3, he thinks that Black can get sufficient comp with 11..Bb7 but not  necessarily with other moves. 

10..Nd7 was considered good for a while due mainly to a Joe Gallgher game, but White has improvements on the play there, and Schipkov opines that White retains the better chances after 11.Bf2, with the idea of re-deploying the Bishop to h4 in appropriate positions.

After 10.Nge2 Nd7, Cherniaev instead recommended 11.Be3 in his book on the Saemisch, offering an improvement on Gunawan-Gelfand, Minsk 1986.  I've tried 11.Be3 a few times and after 11..Nde5 12.Nf4 Nb4 13.Kf2! I've done well against 13..Be6, 13..Nc2, and 13..g5?!  I haven't faced the simple 13..e6, which was Hebden's choice and may be Black's best. 

Quote:
Each move order has its advantages and drawbacks. 6.Nge2 is the best option against <2000 players, as most will nonchalantly fall into 6...e5?! 7.Bg5!.


I'm not sure this is as bad as you seem to indicate.  Black plays 7..c6 and, while White got a better position in the Ponomariov-Radjabov game, the position becomes messy enough for Black to generate chances.  Indeed, the position in that game turned in Black's favor rather quickly and Radjabov won in "everything's gone wrong for White and the Black pieces are too active" King's Indian style.  I'm not defending ..e5, and I don't know that Radjabov would repeat the opening against a 2700, but in a game between 2000s, just saying that its not so clearcut bad. 

Quote:
The only drawback is that against ...Nbd7 setups you can't play Nh3, as you mentioned, and after 6...c5 7.d5 e6 8.Ng3 ed5 9.cd5 you have committed your knight to the g3-square (which isn't a bad thing, of course).


There are move-order issues to consider as well.  I don't play Nge2 because in the Orthodox after 6..e5, 7.d5 c6, I like to play 8.Bd3 (with the idea of 0-0) rather than 8.Nge2.

[snip]

Quote:
Finally, you can play 5.Nge2 as an Anti-Gallagher move order. In 'Play the King's Indian', Gallagher recommends 5...c6 to avoid the kingside attacks that can occur after say 5...0-0 6.Ng3 e5 7.d5 followed by Be2, h4-h5, Bg5 and Qd2 in some order. Against 5...c6, you can play 6.f3, which is likely to force Black out of his theoretical knowledge. There's nothing wrong with the Byrne system, of course, but White should keep a small edge.


I've played the 5.Nge2 system (sometimes called the Hungarian Attack or the Kramer system) from time-to-time ever since coming across it in Keene's old 1.d4 repertoire book.  But I've always felt that it was kind of a one-trick opening and if you don't get in Bxh5, you don't get much.  Also, against ..c5, you either get a Benoni with an early Nge2-g3 or, after exd5, a position where its hard to do much against accurate play.


Quote:
I used to play the Samisch a lot myself, so I have plenty of experience in weighing up these move order issues. Eventually the Benoni positions put me off.


Agreed.  These days I've switched to 5.Nf3/6.h3 so that if its a Benoni, I can at least play the MML.
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #18 - 03/11/11 at 17:51:42
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I agree with MNb. Those Benoni positions is not everyone's cup of tea. I just wanted to inform you about the analysis of this recent CBM.
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #17 - 03/11/11 at 17:23:12
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/11/11 at 10:32:00:
On the other hand if White gets a theoretical edge in the Benoni positions (and i cannot understand why this shouldn't be true) this seems a good choice to me.

Because of the weak (strong from Black's point of view) black squares.

ErictheRed wrote on 03/11/11 at 16:10:57:
@MnB: I suspect that I'll take up 1.e4 and that it'll be good for my development as a player.  Eventually I'll probably come back to 1.d4 with new ideas/understanding, etc.

I am not going to contradict you here. I think it's just funny that you switch from 1.d4 to 1.e4 for the reasons which urged me to take the opposite route.

ErictheRed wrote on 03/11/11 at 16:10:57:
I don't mean to discourage anyone from playing the Saemisch; i'ts definitely been good to me over the years.

You are certainly not discouraging me, on the contrary.

ErictheRed wrote on 03/11/11 at 16:10:57:
@As an example, I recently played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 5.cd cd 6.Qb3 against a much lower rated opponent (rated 1700).

This is definitely not the way I meet the Slav. I prefer KG-style: 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 b5 6.Qc2. That's a bit different.  Wink
As I remarked before, this allows me more to play in true KG-spirit than KG itself!
Again: keep me informed about your ideas and experiences against the Petrov. Matemax has done very little to cure me from my Petrov-fobia, even though he tried seriously.

Even if his intention was the opposite, I still found Ametanoitos' post discouraging. He advocated exactly the type of play that doesn't suit me. So I will not follow his advise, but play 5.f3, 6.Be3 and 7.Nge2 followed by a pawn storm. I have quite some experience with this type of play against the Pirc. One of the very few variations I really understand is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.Be3 Bg7 4.Qd2 0-0 5.0-0-0 followed by 6.f3 (and sac sac mate). Of course the pawn on c4 makes quite some difference and I hope that's not always in White's disadvantage.

PS: I am glad he doesn't take this too hard.
« Last Edit: 03/11/11 at 21:48:17 by MNb »  

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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #16 - 03/11/11 at 16:11:51
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@Ametanoitos

(Robert) Byrne.

A claim that 6. Be3 c5 7. d5 should lead to an advantage for White would be surprising to me (and surely the first time I've ever seen such a claim).  I mean, 6. Bg5 c5 7. d5 has been generally considered as leading to =/unclear with best play, and one wonders how 6. Be3 c5 7. d5 could be an improved (rather than perhaps a "disimproved") version of it.
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #15 - 03/11/11 at 16:10:57
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@MnB: I suspect that I'll take up 1.e4 and that it'll be good for my development as a player.  Eventually I'll probably come back to 1.d4 with new ideas/understanding, etc.

I don't mean to discourage anyone from playing the Saemisch; i'ts definitely been good to me over the years.  But lately it doesn't inspire me, I've run out of new ideas, and I now place a higher premium on harmonious piece play, whereas in the past I've enjoyed more of a slow build up behind a large center.  Anyway the pawn on f3 has been annoying me lately and I'm really looking forward to Wojo's Weapons 2.  But playing 1.e4 definitely has a strong appeal for me right now, and so far I've been surprised at how easily I get winning chances (albeit against much lower rated opponents). 

As an example, I recently played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 5.cd cd 6.Qb3 against a much lower rated opponent (rated 1700).  He just calmly gave up the b-pawn with 6...e6 and ended up getting almost enough compensation for it; anyway the position wasn't that enjoyable for me to play as I spent the next 15 moves dealing with Black's activity and trying to develop  my Queenside without dropping the b-pawn.  It seems like when White does get an advantage after 1.e4, it's usually of a more piece-play oriented nature than when White gets an edge after 1.d4.  That's a gross generalization I know, but for now I've enjoyed playing the Closed Spanish and Open Sicilians in casual games a lot more than I enjoy playing the Slav or whatever.
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #14 - 03/11/11 at 10:32:22
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fling wrote on 03/11/11 at 09:52:46:
I have thought about 1.e4 just to get more open positions with dynamic play, but funnily the Petroff is what really is bugging me.

Petroff-Phobia
From my own experience: at least 50 % play 1...c5 against 1.e4, then there is a mixture of 1...e5 , 1...e6, 1...c6 - I think probably about 15 % each and the final  5 % are 1...g6 and 1...d5 and all kind of strange moves

Within 1...e5 it is 50 % Petroff and 50 % 2...Nc6

Conclusion:
As I am not playing on GM-level I don't get the Petroff very often, but a lot of 1.e4-positions I like. If I get the Petroff I take it as it goes and usually play for 4.Nc3 avoiding mainline theory. If Black is a good player I am satisfied if the result is a draw, if he is weaker than me I still have chances to win and if he is stronger - well: "Why does he play the Petroff? Does he want to make a draw against a weaker opponent?"

Back to 1.d4 and KI-Saemisch:
As I play the KI with Black I am mostly frightened by g3-systems and the Saemisch. The first one, because it does not offer the usual dynamic counterplay, the second one because it is rare!

Conclusion:
If you play 1.d4 go for 2.c4 (and have a look at those gambit-lines, because they offer you good chances for a win with White!) and then take up the Saemisch - It is a strong opening choice! It is even possible to try to avoid the Gruenfeld with an early f3.
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #13 - 03/11/11 at 10:32:00
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If i remember correctly there was a recent CBM article who claimed an advantage for White after 6.Be3 c5 7.d5. I would never accept that pawn, but this is just my philosophy. Black gets comp. Is this enough for equality? Maybe yes, maybe not but he has comp and in a practical game this matters a lot. On the other hand if White gets a theoretical edge in the Benoni positions (and i cannot understand why this shouldn't be true) this seems a good choice to me.

As the 6.Be4 e5 variation is considered slightly better for White (although Black is quite solid but this choice is not practical because he cannot use it against the alternative move orders 6.Nge2 and 6.Bg5 as you have noted) and 6...Nbd7 is met by Nh3, it only remains the Burn (a6+c6) and the Panno.

Against the Burn White also gets a small edge (some Yearbook articles and another recent CBM are trying to prove this) and against the Panno i always had a soft spot for the variation 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 O-O 6. Be3 Nc6 7. Nge2 a6 8. Qd2
Rb8 9. Rb1 or 9. a3. Also 9.Rc1 with the idea Nd1 is pleasant for White. White risks nothing and always plays for (at least) a small edge.

So, in general the Saemish looks to me like a great choice for the White player.
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #12 - 03/11/11 at 09:52:46
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MNb wrote on 03/11/11 at 03:33:25:
ErictheRed wrote on 03/10/11 at 20:28:57:
I honestly have no experience with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 e5 7.Nge2, but if I were to continue playing the Saemisch in the future I would investigate there.

Regarding 6.Be3 c5 7.Nge2 Nc6, I always got the feeling that Black is equal if he knows what he's doing (and it's been well-covered in multiple books).  But it's the type of equality that can get dynamic if either side makes a mistake, or very messy and complicated.

Sounds good enough to me.

ErictheRed wrote on 03/10/11 at 20:28:57:
My feelings are that after 6...c5 White definitely wants his Bishop on g5 in the Benoni structures.

My problem is that in the Benoni structures I don't want a pawn on f3.

FErictheRed wrote on 03/10/11 at 20:28:57:
rankly I just wanted to give my general assessments after many years of playing this way as White.

I did not ask for more, so call me happy with them.

ErictheRed wrote on 03/10/11 at 20:28:57:
In the future I'm either going to play the Fianchetto or just take the plunge and play 1.e4.  I've played 1.d4 exclusively in important games, but my style is changing.  I've spent the last 2 years trying to become more dynamic (read Beim's book, Suba's book, Art of Sacrifice, etc), and I'm finding now that I enjoy more open positions with more piece play.

Now that's funny. A few years ago I have quit 1.e4 exactly because I want more dynamic games!
So keep me informed about your experiences with the Petrov or with ways to avoid it. Believe it or not, even with the KG I did not get dynamic play anymore. Compare David Flude's post on 5...Qe7 in the KG-thread. At least my KID-draws were dynamic draws.


This is very interesting because right now I have a bit limited repertoire. I used to play 1.d4 but didn't like to face the Grunfeld and Benko and therefore switched to 1.Nf3 and later on 1.c4, which is what I play now (with an eye for transpositions to "pure" d4-lines. However, I have thought about 1.e4 just to get more open positions with dynamic play, but funnily the Petroff is what really is bugging me.

I am aiming to play the Bayonet attack against the KID, because in the Saemich, I also don't like the Benoni-positions with my pawn on f3 and therefore in principle want to play dxc5. If this c5-sacrifice can actually be accepted by White without too much suffering, I might actually give the Saemich another try.
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #11 - 03/11/11 at 03:33:25
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/10/11 at 20:28:57:
I honestly have no experience with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 e5 7.Nge2, but if I were to continue playing the Saemisch in the future I would investigate there.

Regarding 6.Be3 c5 7.Nge2 Nc6, I always got the feeling that Black is equal if he knows what he's doing (and it's been well-covered in multiple books).  But it's the type of equality that can get dynamic if either side makes a mistake, or very messy and complicated.

Sounds good enough to me.

ErictheRed wrote on 03/10/11 at 20:28:57:
My feelings are that after 6...c5 White definitely wants his Bishop on g5 in the Benoni structures.

My problem is that in the Benoni structures I don't want a pawn on f3.

FErictheRed wrote on 03/10/11 at 20:28:57:
rankly I just wanted to give my general assessments after many years of playing this way as White.

I did not ask for more, so call me happy with them.

ErictheRed wrote on 03/10/11 at 20:28:57:
In the future I'm either going to play the Fianchetto or just take the plunge and play 1.e4.  I've played 1.d4 exclusively in important games, but my style is changing.  I've spent the last 2 years trying to become more dynamic (read Beim's book, Suba's book, Art of Sacrifice, etc), and I'm finding now that I enjoy more open positions with more piece play.

Now that's funny. A few years ago I have quit 1.e4 exactly because I want more dynamic games!
So keep me informed about your experiences with the Petrov or with ways to avoid it. Believe it or not, even with the KG I did not get dynamic play anymore. Compare David Flude's post on 5...Qe7 in the KG-thread. At least my KID-draws were dynamic draws.
  

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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #10 - 03/10/11 at 20:28:57
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MNb wrote on 03/10/11 at 03:43:54:
ErictheRed wrote on 03/09/11 at 15:52:28:
I personally think some of the opposite side castling positions that result after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 e5 7.d5 Nh5 8.Qd2

What about 7.Nge2 then? And similar, what about 6.Be3 c5 7.Nge2 ?


I honestly have no experience with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 e5 7.Nge2, but if I were to continue playing the Saemisch in the future I would investigate there.

Regarding 6.Be3 c5 7.Nge2 Nc6, I always got the feeling that Black is equal if he knows what he's doing (and it's been well-covered in multiple books).  But it's the type of equality that can get dynamic if either side makes a mistake, or very messy and complicated. 

My feelings are that after 6...c5 White definitely wants his Bishop on g5 in the Benoni structures.  After 6...e5 I think White usually wants the Bishop on g5, and after 6...Nc6 I think he definitely wants the Bishop on e3.  There is no perfect 6th move for White, but I've generally chosen based on what variation I think my opponent will play.  After 6.Nge2 c5 7.d5 I have not had good results, even though that seems to be the more modern way of playing for White.  I feel the Knight is prematurely placed on g3 in a lot of those lines (of course White could try 7.Be3, the old main line).  All in all I still choose 6.Bg5 when I have no idea what my opponent will do.

Frankly I just wanted to give my general assessments after many years of playing this way as White.  I'm basically all out of ideas in the Saemisch.  That's not to say there aren't many interesting ideas to discover, just that I've had enough.  In the future I'm either going to play the Fianchetto or just take the plunge and play 1.e4.  I've played 1.d4 exclusively in important games, but my style is changing.  I've spent the last 2 years trying to become more dynamic (read Beim's book, Suba's book, Art of Sacrifice, etc), and I'm finding now that I enjoy more open positions with more piece play.   

Incidentally, here is what might be my last game played in the Saemisch, and I think it illustrates my new dynamism pretty well:

[White "ErictheRed"]
[Black "1950 player"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 O-O 6. Bg5 c5 7. d5 Na6 8. Nge2 Bd7

I think I definitely misplayed the opening, but I was confused by Black not playing ...e7-e6 (incidentally, I've since found improvements around here shown by Yusupov.  I don't have my notes).

9. Ng3 Nc7 10. Qd2 a6

If I had played something like 11.Be2 Rb8 12.0-0 b5, or 11.a4 Rb8 12.a5 b5 13.axb6 Rxb6, I thought Black was completely equal.  More than that, he has everything he wants.  So I thought for a while and came up with an interesting idea based on the weakness of...the Bishop on d7!  Strange, but true.

11. Rd1 Rb8 12. Be2 b5 13. e5 Nfe8 14. exd6 Nxd6 15.Nce4 f6 16. Bf4 Nxc4 17. Bxc4 bxc4 18. d6 exd6 19. Qxd6 g5 (...Rxb2! is unclear) 20. Qxd7 gxf4 21.Nf5 Qxd7 22. Rxd7 Ne6 23. Re7 Rfe8 24. Rxe8+ Rxe8 25. Ned6 Rd8 26. Nxc4 Nd4 27.Nxd4 cxd4 28. Kd2 Bf8 29. Kd3 f5 30. Re1 Kf7 31. Re5 Kf6 32. Ra5 Kg5 33. Rxa6 and I went on to win.

Black could have put up a better fight, and I don't think my idea was really good for an objective advantage.  But I'm happy because I really think I'm becoming a more dynamic player.
« Last Edit: 03/11/11 at 03:28:35 by ErictheRed »  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #9 - 03/10/11 at 03:43:54
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/09/11 at 15:52:28:
I personally think some of the opposite side castling positions that result after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 e5 7.d5 Nh5 8.Qd2

What about 7.Nge2 then? And similar, what about 6.Be3 c5 7.Nge2 ?

ErictheRed wrote on 03/09/11 at 15:52:28:
I want to add that there are basically two ways of playing the Saemisch: one very aggressive where you try to launch a Yugoslav-style attack against the Black King, and one where you basically use the overprotected e4 pawn to stifle Black's typical King's Indian counterplay in the center.

It won't be a surprise that the first way of playing attracts me most.
  

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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #8 - 03/09/11 at 17:37:22
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Matemax wrote on 03/09/11 at 16:02:38:
ErictheRed wrote on 03/09/11 at 15:52:28:
After 6.Be3, I really think that ...c5! is an extremely good gambit in practice; sometimes people come up with a new idea for White or post some lines that should lead to an advantage (ala Matemax),

Smiley I was on the BLACK side of this game and had no fun - I stopped playing 6...c5 after this one, because it's not so complicated for White to play like in the game and even someone rated way below me could give me serious problems...


Well it's good to hear that Black has to suffer in this line sometimes!  I've always had the opposite experience.  Anyway in your particular move order, I would think that 11...Bxh3 is a serious option.  After 13.Nf4!? I would recommend looking at Pentzien - Piersig, 2007, and Szczepanski - Gavrilakis, 2009, for ways that Black can possibly have more fun.  Both games are on chesslive.de.

As White trying to fight against Black's activity, I always had the feeling that I was trying to plug a dam with my fingers.  I stuck a finger in a hole on every move until I ran out of fingers, then Black's pieces would come rushing in...
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #7 - 03/09/11 at 16:02:38
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/09/11 at 15:52:28:
After 6.Be3, I really think that ...c5! is an extremely good gambit in practice; sometimes people come up with a new idea for White or post some lines that should lead to an advantage (ala Matemax),

Smiley I was on the BLACK side of this game and had no fun - I stopped playing 6...c5 after this one, because it's not so complicated for White to play like in the game and even someone rated way below me could give me serious problems...
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #6 - 03/09/11 at 15:52:28
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Great post, TN.

I consider myself somewhat of a Saemisch expert, since it's the only line I've played against the KID forever (I'm probably switching lines, though).  I want to add that there are basically two ways of playing the Saemisch: one very aggressive where you try to launch a Yugoslav-style attack against the Black King, and one where you basically use the overprotected e4 pawn to stifle Black's typical King's Indian counterplay in the center.  Both approaches are valid and have attracted people with different styles over the years.

Each 6th move has its drawback.  After 6.Be3, I really think that ...c5! is an extremely good gambit in practice; sometimes people come up with a new idea for White or post some lines that should lead to an advantage (ala Matemax), but try playing it over the board and I think you'll find Black has all the fun.  Also, the Bishop isn't best placed on e3 after a later ...e5, and I personally think some of the opposite side castling positions that result after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 e5 7.d5 Nh5 8.Qd2, for instance, are actually better for Black than has been thought in the past.  Chris Ward seems to allude as much in his book.

In the 6.Nge2 c5 7.d5 line, I've actually felt uncomfortable with commiting my Knight to g3 so early; it's a target for ...h7-h5-h4, for instance, and it isn't at all clear to me that g3 is its best square.  Sometimes you can put it on c1 or f4, however; all in all, I haven't fared well with 6.Nge2 c5 in practice.

My pet line is 6.Bg5, which I've had excellent results with after 6...c5 7.d5.  Objectively, White's advantage is slight, but it's the kind of position you can specialize in and do very well with--there are lots of subtle nuances that you can use in your favor compared to 6.Be3.  The drawback of 6.Bg5 is that it's usually not covered very well in books and you have to figure a lot of things out for yourself (maybe that's an advantage)?  Personally, I think Black's best move is 6...Nc6!, when the Bishop on g5 is missed by the d4 square.  The subtle differences between this position and 6.Be3 Nc6 are not really covered in the materials I have on the Saemisch (I haven't seen Fluffy's new book, though).  I've often wondered whether Black could even simply play 6.Bg5 Nc6 7.Nge2 e5 8.d5 Nd4 9.Nxd4 ed 10.Qxd4 h6, which seems to force 11.Bxf6 when Black has a ton of dark squared control in return for his center pawn.  Black can try to improve this line of play with a move like 7...Re8, when 8.Qd2 e5 9.d5 gives Black an extra tempo.

Even if those lines turn out to be better for White (which they probably are), in general I think the Bishop is a bit misplaced on g5 after 6...Nc6!, whether you castle Queenside and play for mate or try 7.Nge2 a6 8.Qd2 Rb8 9.Rc1 (my usual line).  Even if Dreev makes this look like an automatic win for White, Black always gets a lot of play if he knows what he's doing and again, I think the Bishop would rather be on e3 in these types of positions.

Anyway that's just my 2 cents; good luck investigating the Saemisch.
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & move order
Reply #5 - 03/09/11 at 15:11:31
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MNb wrote on 03/09/11 at 14:56:35:
My thanks as well, as I haven't found a way to combat the KID that suits me either.

The same for me. Then what do you think of 6.Be3 c5 7.Nge2 ?



or 6.Nge2 c5 7.Be3
I'm thinking of using this move order and only pushing d5 if ..Nc6 is played to avoid the pure benoni positions.
I quite like the look of these lines, (though computer evaluations are a bit off).

PS: I hadn't considered the Maroczy transpo. Looking at the accel dragon lines, an early f3 seems a little less mainstream though I spotted a Kasparov 2001 game - so maybe not so bad?! (Maybe transposes to a more standard line with later f3). I'm thinking delay Qd2 and play Be2/0-0 first.
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
Reply #4 - 03/09/11 at 15:09:43
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I think that the pawn sacrifice variation is not that easy for Black. Following is a game I played "turn base" online on chess.com - I felt like going down without a fight (probably playing badly, cause I often only play "out of my gut" online).

I was following Bologans KI-book, but as you see after 10.Be3 (highlighted) b6 my opponent got an advantage by playing 13.Nf4 when I "had to play" the ugly 13...e6 (cause of 14.Nd5 and 13...Be6 runs into 14.Ne6) - Bologan gives: 10.Be3 b6 11.Rc1 Nd7 12.Nh3 Nc5 13. Nf2 Be6 Levitt-Fedorowicz, New York 1994

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 O-O 6.Be3 c5 7.dxc5 dxc5
8.Qxd8 Rxd8 9.Bxc5 Nc6 10.Be3 b6 11.Nh3 Nd7 12.Rc1 Nc5 13.Nf4
e6 14.Be2 Ba6 15.Kf2 Ne5 16.b4 Ncd3+ 17.Nxd3 Nxd3+ 18.Bxd3 Rxd3
19.Ne2 Rad8 20.b5 Bb7 21.c5 bxc5 22.Rxc5 R8d7 23.Rhc1 f5 24.exf5
exf5 25.Rc7 Be5 26.Rxd7 Rxd7 27.Bxa7 Bxf3 28.gxf3 Rxa7 29.f4
Bd6 30.Rc6 Ba3 31.Rc8+ 1-0
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & move order
Reply #3 - 03/09/11 at 14:56:35
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My thanks as well, as I haven't found a way to combat the KID that suits me either.

TN wrote on 03/09/11 at 12:14:22:
Now we arrive at 6.Be3, the most popular move. The main advantage of this setup is that after 6...c5, you can play 7.Nge2, maintaining the central tension........
Eventually the Benoni positions put me off.

The same for me. Then what do you think of 6.Be3 c5 7.Nge2, especially in relation to the Accelerated Dragon?

  

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Re: The Saemisch: in general & move order
Reply #2 - 03/09/11 at 13:39:44
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TN wrote on 03/09/11 at 12:14:22:
The reason the Samisch isn't played as much as the Classical at the top is because practice has shown that Black can draw in the pawn sacrifice line with a bit of precision. Wang Yue tried this out a few times with White, but his game against Radjabov put him off the line, even though he won the game.

Each move order has its advantages and drawbacks. 6.Nge2 is the best option against <2000 players, as most will nonchalantly fall into 6...e5?! 7.Bg5!. The only drawback is that against ...Nbd7 setups you can't play Nh3, as you mentioned, and after 6...c5 7.d5 e6 8.Ng3 ed5 9.cd5 you have committed your knight to the g3-square (which isn't a bad thing, of course).

6.Bg5 renders 6...e5 unplayable, and lets White meet 6...Nbd7 with 7.Nh3. Against 6...Nc6, an interesting try is 7.Nge2 a6 8.Qd2 Rb8 9.d5, which appears more effective with the bishop on g5 as opposed to e3. After 6...c5 7.d5 e6 8.Qd2 ed5 9.cd5, you have the option of playing for Bd3/Nge2 setups, although this isn't the world's greatest Benoni for White.

Now we arrive at 6.Be3, the most popular move. The main advantage of this setup is that after 6...c5, you can play 7.Nge2, maintaining the central tension, 7.dc5, which is objectively equal, but only White can play for a win (read: great below 2500 level, at least), or even 7.d5, with similar positions to 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5. Indeed, play can transpose if Black plays ...h5 (instead of ...h6 Be3 and later Qd2 h5). Against 6...Nc6 you have a few good options, including the 9.Nc1/Ng3 lines and the prophylactic 9.Rc1. A possible argument against 6.Be3 is that 6...e5 is now stronger than against 6.Bg5/6.Nge2, but even so 7.d5 c6 8.Qd2 or 8.Bd3 is preferable for White.

Finally, you can play 5.Nge2 as an Anti-Gallagher move order. In 'Play the King's Indian', Gallagher recommends 5...c6 to avoid the kingside attacks that can occur after say 5...0-0 6.Ng3 e5 7.d5 followed by Be2, h4-h5, Bg5 and Qd2 in some order. Against 5...c6, you can play 6.f3, which is likely to force Black out of his theoretical knowledge. There's nothing wrong with the Byrne system, of course, but White should keep a small edge.

I used to play the Samisch a lot myself, so I have plenty of experience in weighing up these move order issues. Eventually the Benoni positions put me off.


Thanks for all that!
I'm constantly struggling to settle on what to play vs the KID. I used to play the Saemisch in my youth. Looking at it afresh, I'm not so keen on the outright Benoni type positions, but maybe at my level I can go grab the gambit pawn.
Think I'm closer to deciding now!
  
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Re: The Saemisch: in general & move order
Reply #1 - 03/09/11 at 12:14:22
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The reason the Samisch isn't played as much as the Classical at the top is because practice has shown that Black can draw in the pawn sacrifice line with a bit of precision. Wang Yue tried this out a few times with White, but his game against Radjabov put him off the line, even though he won the game.

Each move order has its advantages and drawbacks. 6.Nge2 is the best option against <2000 players, as most will nonchalantly fall into 6...e5?! 7.Bg5!. The only drawback is that against ...Nbd7 setups you can't play Nh3, as you mentioned, and after 6...c5 7.d5 e6 8.Ng3 ed5 9.cd5 you have committed your knight to the g3-square (which isn't a bad thing, of course).

6.Bg5 renders 6...e5 unplayable, and lets White meet 6...Nbd7 with 7.Nh3. Against 6...Nc6, an interesting try is 7.Nge2 a6 8.Qd2 Rb8 9.d5, which appears more effective with the bishop on g5 as opposed to e3. After 6...c5 7.d5 e6 8.Qd2 ed5 9.cd5, you have the option of playing for Bd3/Nge2 setups, although this isn't the world's greatest Benoni for White.

Now we arrive at 6.Be3, the most popular move. The main advantage of this setup is that after 6...c5, you can play 7.Nge2, maintaining the central tension, 7.dc5, which is objectively equal, but only White can play for a win (read: great below 2500 level, at least), or even 7.d5, with similar positions to 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5. Indeed, play can transpose if Black plays ...h5 (instead of ...h6 Be3 and later Qd2 h5). Against 6...Nc6 you have a few good options, including the 9.Nc1/Ng3 lines and the prophylactic 9.Rc1. A possible argument against 6.Be3 is that 6...e5 is now stronger than against 6.Bg5/6.Nge2, but even so 7.d5 c6 8.Qd2 or 8.Bd3 is preferable for White.

Finally, you can play 5.Nge2 as an Anti-Gallagher move order. In 'Play the King's Indian', Gallagher recommends 5...c6 to avoid the kingside attacks that can occur after say 5...0-0 6.Ng3 e5 7.d5 followed by Be2, h4-h5, Bg5 and Qd2 in some order. Against 5...c6, you can play 6.f3, which is likely to force Black out of his theoretical knowledge. There's nothing wrong with the Byrne system, of course, but White should keep a small edge.

I used to play the Samisch a lot myself, so I have plenty of experience in weighing up these move order issues. Eventually the Benoni positions put me off.
  

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The Saemisch: in general & Nge2 move order
03/09/11 at 11:52:19
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Hi,

I notice that the Saemisch isn't played anywhere near as frequently as classical lines and note too that computer evaluations in Saemisch lines often favour black!
How would you characterize the Saemisch? What sort of white player can it suit?

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0
If White was intending to decline the gambit line is 6.Nge2 an ok move order. It seems to improve whites position vs 6..e5 due to 7.Bg5 - but I always liked to react to ..Nbd7 with Nh3 - so is this the biggest downside of 6.Nge2?

One further question. Is it ok to decline the gambit line or should white really be playing it?

Thanks,
Tickly.
  
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