Latest Updates:
Poll
Poll Question: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame



« Created by: snakebite on: 03/11/11 at 10:17:38 »
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame (Read 35223 times)
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1425
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #13 - 03/14/11 at 22:44:41
Post Tools
OK, so i'll reveal mine ideas. Not something deep, but a start:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Bf1 Nxe5 8. Rxe5 O-O 9. d4

(9. Nc3 Ne8 10. Nd5 Bd6 11. Re1 c6 12. Ne3 Bc7 13. Nf5 d5 14.Ne7+ Kh8 15. Nxc8 Rxc8
White has the Bishop pair but this was never considered as a notable advantage in this position
16. d3
(16. d4 f5N is fine for Black as there is no Knight to land on e5!)
16... f5N and Black's pawn-structure limits White's light-squared Bishop while he has a space advantage)

9... b6!? with the idea Bb7+f5 and Ne4 with g5 or Bg5 etc

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1299
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #12 - 03/14/11 at 17:34:44
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 03/14/11 at 08:41:57:
Of course i meant 9...Ke8 and not 9...Kh8 Sad (what was i thinking? Strange patterns work inside the mind. The move ...Kh8 is much more common than ...Ke8!)

Yes, i also disagree about with Mark here, even though making general remarks is always dangerous. There are sub-variations of the Berlin endgame (even lines that are considered main lines today, for example Kramnik's ...h5 variation) than kill the winning chances of both sides, so if Mark had those in mind when he said what he said he is right. But, in my opinion, there are lines (like the one i talked about) that give Black hopes for the win. There is also a ...Bf5 variation which is complex and unclear.

Let me present you a fraction of a recent game of mine featuring a strong novelty from my side. After 9.Nc3 i played 9...Be6 (another good continuation) and my well-prepared opponent played 10.Ng5 Ke7 11.f4! which is considered critical in Cox's Berlin book. I played with confidence 11...h5! which is (as i understand it!) best and my opponent played 12.Rd1 which was given in Cox's book as uncomfortable for Black based on a Carlsen's game from 2005 if i recall correctly. Now i played again what i think is logical and strong: 12...f6! which is (probably!) a novelty (that came to my mind after watching plenty of those recent Ke8+h5 games, where by the way Black is not equal according to what i have found) and after 13.exf6 gxf6 14.Nxe6 Kxe6 i won easily by playing Bd6-Kf7 and after White played g2-g3 i played in auto-pilot the position after Rag8+h4 with massive attack while the Rd1 looked really stupid!

A game proves nothing of course! But i use it as an example from my experience.

@trw: Is there a chance to reveal some ways you have found to make the position after 5.Re1 a bit more complicated?



I can reveal them but as I said they aren't very good.

actually I can't find the game now... I'll look again deeper later to find the physical copy. But the idea basically involved a well timed g5. You can see the risk with that shattering your own kingside but it led to a complicated game. To be honest, it wasn't an idea I would repeat unless I felt I had to win at all cost.
« Last Edit: 03/14/11 at 21:33:23 by trw »  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1425
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #11 - 03/14/11 at 08:41:57
Post Tools
Of course i meant 9...Ke8 and not 9...Kh8 Sad (what was i thinking? Strange patterns work inside the mind. The move ...Kh8 is much more common than ...Ke8!)

Yes, i also disagree about with Mark here, even though making general remarks is always dangerous. There are sub-variations of the Berlin endgame (even lines that are considered main lines today, for example Kramnik's ...h5 variation) than kill the winning chances of both sides, so if Mark had those in mind when he said what he said he is right. But, in my opinion, there are lines (like the one i talked about) that give Black hopes for the win. There is also a ...Bf5 variation which is complex and unclear.

Let me present you a fraction of a recent game of mine featuring a strong novelty from my side. After 9.Nc3 i played 9...Be6 (another good continuation) and my well-prepared opponent played 10.Ng5 Ke7 11.f4! which is considered critical in Cox's Berlin book. I played with confidence 11...h5! which is (as i understand it!) best and my opponent played 12.Rd1 which was given in Cox's book as uncomfortable for Black based on a Carlsen's game from 2005 if i recall correctly. Now i played again what i think is logical and strong: 12...f6! which is (probably!) a novelty (that came to my mind after watching plenty of those recent Ke8+h5 games, where by the way Black is not equal according to what i have found) and after 13.exf6 gxf6 14.Nxe6 Kxe6 i won easily by playing Bd6-Kf7 and after White played g2-g3 i played in auto-pilot the position after Rag8+h4 with massive attack while the Rd1 looked really stupid!

A game proves nothing of course! But i use it as an example from my experience.

@trw: Is there a chance to reveal some ways you have found to make the position after 5.Re1 a bit more complicated?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1299
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #10 - 03/14/11 at 08:07:13
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 03/14/11 at 07:54:53:
9.Nc3 Kh8! 10.h3 Be6! seems to be a good way for Black to play for the win. I see many GMs playing the move 10.Ne2 these days. Probably they try to avoid 10...Be6 (because of 11.Nf4) or at least make this move less strong now. 10...Be6 11.Nf4 Bd5 is given as equal by GM Kritz anyway.

The Berlin endgame in general is very complex and offers hopes for both sides to outplay their opponent. I believfe that in sub-2000 level a player with good feeling and some preparation (and experience) on this endgame would score point after point.

I will repeat myself and say once again that the big problem with the Berlin(in you want to play for the win) is the 7.Re1! variation (with the Bf1 retriet of course!). I would appreciate some ideas here for someone that has any because i have investigated it a lot and i found nothing! Dead dead equality (or even a slight +/=). The endgame is much more easily winable!



I'm confused how black plays Kh8 after 9 Nc3... King is on d8...

as to the sub 2000 yes its surprisingly good here even the sub 2200 level I have to say experience holds up well though not so much prep. Anand himself said there is no danger of preparation in the Berlin. Another reason I suppose that so many GMs these days have taken it up.

Kritz is still one of the leading theorists in the opening.

I agree 7. Re1 provides annoying equality but I've found ways to make it at least complicated - sometimes this route backfires though so its best just to stay with the =.

I meant no disrespect Markovich. I was just trying to say that alot of people do play it to win. I do. I went to a lecture yesterday by Women's World Champion Finalist Ruan Lufei. She showed her Berlin win game against former Women's World Champion Kosteniuk. Her comment on move 4 was that her best opening choice to have winning chances against Kosteniuk was the Berlin.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1425
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #9 - 03/14/11 at 07:54:53
Post Tools
9.Nc3 Kh8! 10.h3 Be6! seems to be a good way for Black to play for the win. I see many GMs playing the move 10.Ne2 these days. Probably they try to avoid 10...Be6 (because of 11.Nf4) or at least make this move less strong now. 10...Be6 11.Nf4 Bd5 is given as equal by GM Kritz anyway.

The Berlin endgame in general is very complex and offers hopes for both sides to outplay their opponent. I believfe that in sub-2000 level a player with good feeling and some preparation (and experience) on this endgame would score point after point.

I will repeat myself and say once again that the big problem with the Berlin(in you want to play for the win) is the 7.Re1! variation (with the Bf1 retriet of course!). I would appreciate some ideas here for someone that has any because i have investigated it a lot and i found nothing! Dead dead equality (or even a slight +/=). The endgame is much more easily winable!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
snakebite
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 81
Joined: 01/25/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #8 - 03/14/11 at 07:43:18
Post Tools
9 Nc3
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Net Warrior
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


1.e4 best by test...Bobby
Fischer

Posts: 45
Location: Long Island, NY
Joined: 08/15/09
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #7 - 03/14/11 at 02:44:07
Post Tools
I agree that we need white's 9th before the vote.  I've been toying with the idea of 9.b3 and IMHO there are other playable white 9ths that don't transpose into the "standard" white setup.
  

I play therefore I am (USCF "A")
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #6 - 03/13/11 at 22:07:41
Post Tools
trw wrote on 03/13/11 at 09:01:44:
Markovich wrote on 03/11/11 at 15:52:03:
The short answer is that if you need the full point and 3.Bb5 appears on the board, don't play the Berlin.

Aronian would respectfully disagree with you. He plays the Berlin to win and the Marshall to draw.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the question was, how should Aronian play for a win?

But in fairness my post was offtopic, so I'll shut up now.
« Last Edit: 03/14/11 at 01:27:16 by Markovich »  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1299
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #5 - 03/13/11 at 09:01:44
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 03/11/11 at 15:52:03:
The short answer is that if you need the full point and 3.Bb5 appears on the board, don't play the Berlin.

Aronian would respectfully disagree with you. He plays the Berlin to win and the Marshall to draw.

As to the poll... what is white's 9th move after 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8.... would help to know that before voting...

I find 9... Ne7 ugly as heck no matter what white does.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1425
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #4 - 03/12/11 at 21:46:50
Post Tools
The BIG problem with the Berlin if you want to play for the win is the Re1 variation. In the endgame i think that Ke8 and after h3 Be6! is excellent for Black who keeps flexibility with the Nf5. In my opinion the Ke8+h5 variation is in White's favour.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1968
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #3 - 03/12/11 at 19:48:17
Post Tools
Well virtually anything is a better choice for win vs a heavily booked, unambitious white than the Marshall Smiley

But the Berlin ending is ambitious so presumably not such an awful choice. Not sure how black generates any play vs the odd thing like Re1 and Bf1 though.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
snakebite
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 81
Joined: 01/25/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #2 - 03/12/11 at 14:37:59
Post Tools
Interesting to see Carslen using it earlier this year when he needed to won with black, plus Aronian used it in preference to the Marshall to beat Kamsky a few years ago....saying something along the lines of it being better suited to the task of winning than the Marshall.
Versus attacking players I feel it is a resonable choice for the patient, bishop loving player.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #1 - 03/11/11 at 15:52:03
Post Tools
The short answer is that if you need the full point and 3.Bb5 appears on the board, don't play the Berlin.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
snakebite
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 81
Joined: 01/25/06
Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
03/11/11 at 10:17:38
Post Tools
Carlsen recently stated that 9...Bd7 gave black winning chances in the Berlin whilst the Kramnik method (9...Ke8 followed by...h5) was drawish.  Yet Topalov has generally played ...Ne7 instead (somebody known for fighting chess).
So which line do people think gives black he best chances of playing for a win?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo