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Question: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame

9...Bd7

9...Ke8

9...Be7

9...Ne7

9...h6

« Created by: snakebite on: 03/11/11 at 10:17:38 »

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Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame (Read 55537 times)

Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #43 - 12/02/11 at 01:33:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	F22 wrote on 09/18/11 at 10:41:04: snakebite wrote on 03/11/11 at 10:17:38: Carlsen recently stated that 9...Bd7 gave black winning chances in the Berlin whilst the Kramnik method (9...Ke8 followed by...h5) was drawish. Where did Carlsen say that? Also I think Berlin could give you great winning chances based on your opponent. Several of my friends really hated to face Berlin and it had perceptible effect on the quality of their game. It merely means that if you fear this, you should play 1.d4. Nobody said chess would be easy.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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PANFR Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 256 Location: Greece Joined: 10/31/11 Gender:	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #42 - 12/01/11 at 13:17:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	SteelyDanIII wrote on 11/30/11 at 17:13:28: The maneuver Ng8-f6-e4-d6-f5-e7-d5-b4-d5-e7-d5-e7-f5-e7-g6 to win the e5 pawn will come in handy Indeed. The question is: any ways to counter than plan? No? oh well...


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SteelyDanIII Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 86 Joined: 05/14/10	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #41 - 11/30/11 at 17:13:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	The maneuver Ng8-f6-e4-d6-f5-e7-d5-b4-d5-e7-d5-e7-f5-e7-g6 to win the e5 pawn will come in handy


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PANFR Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 256 Location: Greece Joined: 10/31/11 Gender:	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #40 - 11/30/11 at 10:52:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Chucky went down to Aronian in the Berlin endgame after 9...Ke8. Levon displayed stunning skill, his way of exploiting white's overextended position is absolutely flawless. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1647779


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bragesjo God Member Offline CCE at ICCF 2021 and CCM at ICCF 2023 Posts: 1839 Location: Eskilstuna Joined: 06/30/06 Gender:	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #39 - 09/29/11 at 11:49:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	While the Berlin endgame is objective speaking whites strongest line against Berlin variation (where I rather play white but thats only me) white has other options as well. These options leeds to equal play but it is still middelgame play and not an endgame so black can techically only force an endgame if white plays the mainline.


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Larsen_fan Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 111 Location: at the board Joined: 02/23/11 Gender:	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #38 - 09/28/11 at 05:01:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	snakebite wrote on 03/11/11 at 10:17:38: Carlsen recently stated that 9...Bd7 gave black winning chances in the Berlin whilst the Kramnik method (9...Ke8 followed by...h5) was drawish. Yet Topalov has generally played ...Ne7 instead (somebody known for fighting chess). So which line do people think gives black he best chances of playing for a win? Carlsen may think that 9...Bd7 gives winning chances but apparently he was satisfied with a draw against Anand yesterday because he chose 9....h6 http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1639879


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Gilchrist is a legend God Member Offline Posts: 1039 Location: Manchester, UK Joined: 03/02/10	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #37 - 09/18/11 at 19:10:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	The only forced endgames I can think of in the Ruy Lopez are the Exchange and the Berlin. 1. e4 players can avoid the Exchange but not the Berlin, so the Berlin is the only method of Black forcing an endgame (or middlegame-endgame). So I am thinking that playing the Berlin against aggressive 1. e4 players, especially if they lack endgame proficiency, would yield good winning chances, even playing against someone of the same rating or higher.

	Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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F22 Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 306 Joined: 07/16/09 Gender:	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #36 - 09/18/11 at 10:41:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	snakebite wrote on 03/11/11 at 10:17:38: Carlsen recently stated that 9...Bd7 gave black winning chances in the Berlin whilst the Kramnik method (9...Ke8 followed by...h5) was drawish. Where did Carlsen say that? Also I think Berlin could give you great winning chances based on your opponent. Several of my friends really hated to face Berlin and it had perceptible effect on the quality of their game.


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JonathanB Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 449 Location: London Joined: 11/17/07 Gender:	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #35 - 09/16/11 at 11:00:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	ghenghisclown wrote on 09/16/11 at 10:21:59: There's an installation video there beneath the sample video I linked to...otherwise just download Chessbase Light for free and use that. Cheers. I watched that video and it mentioned CB11, but I have CB8 and it wasn't clear if it would still work. The DVDs come with CBLight installed I think. Still, it seems like I'll be good to go.

	www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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ghenghisclown God Member Offline Pedicare Vestri Latin Posts: 1022 Location: HollyWeird Joined: 07/19/06 Gender:	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #34 - 09/16/11 at 10:21:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	There's an installation video there beneath the sample video I linked to...otherwise just download Chessbase Light for free and use that.

	"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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JonathanB Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 449 Location: London Joined: 11/17/07 Gender:	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #33 - 09/15/11 at 20:40:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	ghenghisclown wrote on 09/15/11 at 09:30:23: Apparently Kritz still loves Ke8: http://www.chessbase-shop.com/en/products/6047 Help a simpleton out. Can I assume that if I can run a Chessbase DVD (I have Kasparov's on the Queen's Gambit and Kramnik's best games) I can watch this download if I buy it?

	www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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ghenghisclown God Member Offline Pedicare Vestri Latin Posts: 1022 Location: HollyWeird Joined: 07/19/06 Gender:	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #32 - 09/15/11 at 09:30:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Apparently Kritz still loves Ke8: http://www.chessbase-shop.com/en/products/6047

	"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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Gilchrist is a legend God Member Offline Posts: 1039 Location: Manchester, UK Joined: 03/02/10	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #31 - 09/11/11 at 00:37:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ponomariov playing the Berlin and winning in a crucial (semifinal?) game in the World Cup: http://chess.ugrasport.com/?page_id=1007&gameid=1000520004

	Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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Gilchrist is a legend God Member Offline Posts: 1039 Location: Manchester, UK Joined: 03/02/10	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #30 - 09/06/11 at 18:58:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ivanchuk played the Prins Variation against the Sicilian and lost to Sutowsky, his opening preparation did not succeed this time. If Black can get a calm position in the Berlin then attacking 1. e4 players might unknowingly weaken their pawn structure by being overambitious.

	Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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OrangeCounty Full Member Offline You played that like it was a good move! Posts: 171 Joined: 05/26/10	Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame Reply #29 - 09/06/11 at 16:01:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Oblonskij wrote on 09/06/11 at 11:06:53: Quote: I doubt it. The main choice of 2700+ players playing for a win is still the Najdorf. sry for offtopic, according to the current world cup the usual choice for must-win games seems to be the Pirc/Modern. It usually backfires though unless you happen to be Ivanchuk. Not the only thing that usually backfires unless you are Ivanchuk. Back on topic: After any move but 9 Nc3, I would think Black can relax and play useful moves, e.g. ...h6, ...Be7, ...Bd7, maybe ...Kc8, and wait for White to do something with the knight. If it goes anywhere but c3, then c6-c5 should be good, followed by putting the bishop on c6. Not that that is necessarily anything, but it should dissuade White from any attempt to prove an advantage, since Black is just getting a good version of 9...Bd7.


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