Latest Updates:
Poll
Poll Question: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame



« Created by: snakebite on: 03/11/11 at 10:17:38 »
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame (Read 36998 times)
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #43 - 12/02/11 at 01:33:17
Post Tools
F22 wrote on 09/18/11 at 10:41:04:
snakebite wrote on 03/11/11 at 10:17:38:
Carlsen recently stated that 9...Bd7 gave black winning chances in the Berlin whilst the Kramnik method (9...Ke8 followed by...h5) was drawish.


Where did Carlsen say that?

Also I think Berlin could give you great winning chances based on  your opponent. Several of my friends really hated to face Berlin and it had perceptible effect on the quality of their game.

It merely means that if you fear this, you should play 1.d4. Nobody said chess would be easy.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 251
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #42 - 12/01/11 at 13:17:33
Post Tools
SteelyDanIII wrote on 11/30/11 at 17:13:28:
The maneuver Ng8-f6-e4-d6-f5-e7-d5-b4-d5-e7-d5-e7-f5-e7-g6 to win the e5 pawn will come in handy Smiley

Indeed. The question is: any ways to counter than plan? No? oh well...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SteelyDanIII
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 86
Joined: 05/14/10
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #41 - 11/30/11 at 17:13:28
Post Tools
The maneuver Ng8-f6-e4-d6-f5-e7-d5-b4-d5-e7-d5-e7-f5-e7-g6 to win the e5 pawn will come in handy Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 251
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #40 - 11/30/11 at 10:52:46
Post Tools
Chucky went down to Aronian in the Berlin endgame after 9...Ke8. Levon displayed stunning skill, his way of exploiting white's overextended position is absolutely flawless.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1647779
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Online


Long live the Nimzo Indian

Posts: 1620
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #39 - 09/29/11 at 11:49:34
Post Tools
While the Berlin endgame is objective speaking whites strongest line against Berlin variation (where I rather play white but thats only me) white has other options as well. These options leeds to equal play but it is still middelgame play and not an endgame so black can techically only force an endgame if white plays the mainline.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Larsen_fan
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 111
Location: at the board
Joined: 02/23/11
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #38 - 09/28/11 at 05:01:51
Post Tools
snakebite wrote on 03/11/11 at 10:17:38:
Carlsen recently stated that 9...Bd7 gave black winning chances in the Berlin whilst the Kramnik method (9...Ke8 followed by...h5) was drawish.  Yet Topalov has generally played ...Ne7 instead (somebody known for fighting chess).
So which line do people think gives black he best chances of playing for a win?


Carlsen may think that 9...Bd7 gives winning chances but apparently he was satisfied with a draw against Anand yesterday because he chose 9....h6

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1639879
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #37 - 09/18/11 at 19:10:28
Post Tools
The only forced endgames I can think of in the Ruy Lopez are the Exchange and the Berlin. 1. e4 players can avoid the Exchange but not the Berlin, so the Berlin is the only method of Black forcing an endgame (or middlegame-endgame). So I am thinking that playing the Berlin against aggressive 1. e4 players, especially if they lack endgame proficiency, would yield good winning chances, even playing against someone of the same rating or higher.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
F22
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 306
Joined: 07/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #36 - 09/18/11 at 10:41:04
Post Tools
snakebite wrote on 03/11/11 at 10:17:38:
Carlsen recently stated that 9...Bd7 gave black winning chances in the Berlin whilst the Kramnik method (9...Ke8 followed by...h5) was drawish.


Where did Carlsen say that?

Also I think Berlin could give you great winning chances based on  your opponent. Several of my friends really hated to face Berlin and it had perceptible effect on the quality of their game.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JonathanB
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 443
Location: London
Joined: 11/17/07
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #35 - 09/16/11 at 11:00:44
Post Tools
ghenghisclown wrote on 09/16/11 at 10:21:59:
There's an installation video there beneath the sample video I linked to...otherwise just download Chessbase Light for free and use that.


Cheers.  I watched that video and it mentioned CB11, but I have CB8 and it wasn't clear if it would still work.  The DVDs come with CBLight installed I think.  Still, it seems like I'll be good to go.
  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #34 - 09/16/11 at 10:21:59
Post Tools
There's an installation video there beneath the sample video I linked to...otherwise just download Chessbase Light for free and use that.
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JonathanB
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 443
Location: London
Joined: 11/17/07
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #33 - 09/15/11 at 20:40:42
Post Tools
ghenghisclown wrote on 09/15/11 at 09:30:23:
Apparently Kritz still loves Ke8:

http://www.chessbase-shop.com/en/products/6047



Help a simpleton out.  Can I assume that if I can run a Chessbase DVD (I have Kasparov's on the Queen's Gambit and Kramnik's best games) I can watch this download if I buy it?

  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #32 - 09/15/11 at 09:30:23
Post Tools
Apparently Kritz still loves Ke8:

http://www.chessbase-shop.com/en/products/6047
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #31 - 09/11/11 at 00:37:13
Post Tools
Ponomariov playing the Berlin and winning in a crucial (semifinal?) game in the World Cup:

http://chess.ugrasport.com/?page_id=1007&gameid=1000520004
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #30 - 09/06/11 at 18:58:16
Post Tools
Ivanchuk played the Prins Variation against the Sicilian and lost to Sutowsky, his opening preparation did not succeed this time.

If Black can get a calm position in the Berlin then attacking 1. e4 players might unknowingly weaken their pawn structure by being overambitious.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OrangeCounty
Full Member
***
Offline


You played that like it
was a good move!

Posts: 171
Joined: 05/26/10
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #29 - 09/06/11 at 16:01:46
Post Tools
Oblonskij wrote on 09/06/11 at 11:06:53:
Quote:
I doubt it. The main choice of 2700+ players playing for a win is still the Najdorf.

sry for offtopic, according to the current world cup the usual choice for must-win games seems to be the Pirc/Modern. It usually backfires though unless you happen to be Ivanchuk.


Not the only thing that usually backfires unless you are Ivanchuk.

Back on topic:

After any move but 9 Nc3, I would think Black can relax and play useful moves, e.g. ...h6, ...Be7, ...Bd7, maybe ...Kc8, and wait for White to do something with the knight.  If it goes anywhere but c3, then c6-c5 should be good, followed by putting the bishop on c6.  Not that that is necessarily anything, but it should dissuade White from any attempt to prove an advantage, since Black is just getting a good version of 9...Bd7.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Oblonskij
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 10/27/10
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #28 - 09/06/11 at 11:06:53
Post Tools
Quote:
I doubt it. The main choice of 2700+ players playing for a win is still the Najdorf.

sry for offtopic, according to the current world cup the usual choice for must-win games seems to be the Pirc/Modern. It usually backfires though unless you happen to be Ivanchuk.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #27 - 09/06/11 at 02:27:15
Post Tools
Maybe I am unusual, but I find that some Berlin positions are fun to play for Black, perhaps especially effective against aggressive players who play 1. e4 to attack. I cannot recall another Ruy Lopez system whose main line transpires into an endgame so quickly.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #26 - 09/06/11 at 01:54:04
Post Tools
Off topic, I think the Zaitsev is Black's best winning try against the Spanish, once you get past the possible repetition. Watson substantiates that in one of his "Mastering" volumes.

Sorry not to address the Berlin.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2148
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #25 - 09/06/11 at 00:01:02
Post Tools
Decisions of2700s are irrelevant to 2200s.
Aronian, Carlsen have better technique than those 500 points below. Obviously.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #24 - 09/05/11 at 21:58:59
Post Tools
Pantu wrote on 09/05/11 at 20:55:20:
Well, I think the point is that the Marshall is so heavily analysed, has multiple forced draws in it, and black is often going into a pawn down ending where the bishop pair provide enough compensation to draw. 


I disagree with you on this point. There are a number of forced draws, but Gustafsson's DVD and games like Ivanchuk-Leko show that Black can play for a win against almost any variation if he is well prepared. There is still a lot of scope for further investigations because unlike most gambits, Black's compensation is quite long-term in nature but still offers good short-term compensation in the opening unlike, for instance, the Benko Gambit.

Quote:
It is very hard to win with at a high level where people know their stuff.


This is the case with any Black opening. If someone proved that an opening that gave excellent chances to win at 2700+ level, everyone would be playing it, or everyone would be not allowing it.

Quote:
The Berlin has much less forcing lines and requires both sides to actually play rather than trotting out theory.  The caveat is that, as I said, white can bail out but there are few openings where that is not possible and most 2600+ players are reluctant to give up a white for nothing.


I think the real caveat is that objectively White is slightly better and most of the top guys have appreciated the strength of the e6 sacrifice, as some recent games have shown.

Quote:
Carlsen has also been using the Berlin to win, and the Breyer as his more heavily analysed "solid" choice.


I think the Breyer is a better winning try than the Berlin or Petroff because it keeps more tension in the position. Mamedyarov's games are particularly instructive if you want to play for a win with the Breyer as Black. If White makes a slight error then often a timely ...d5 is already better for Black.

Quote:
Currently I think the Berlin is almost the main choice of the 2700+ when wanting to win as black vs 1 e4...in the endgame the positions just aren't as sterile as the Petroff.


I doubt it. The main choice of 2700+ players playing for a win is still the Najdorf.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pantu
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 307
Joined: 12/30/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #23 - 09/05/11 at 20:55:20
Post Tools
Well, I think the point is that the Marshall is so heavily analysed, has multiple forced draws in it, and black is often going into a pawn down ending where the bishop pair provide enough compensation to draw.  It is very hard to win with at a high level where people know their stuff.

The Berlin has much less forcing lines and requires both sides to actually play rather than trotting out theory.  The caveat is that, as I said, white can bail out but there are few openings where that is not possible and most 2600+ players are reluctant to give up a white for nothing.

Carlsen has also been using the Berlin to win, and the Breyer as his more heavily analysed "solid" choice.

Currently I think the Berlin is almost the main choice of the 2700+ when wanting to win as black vs 1 e4...in the endgame the positions just aren't as sterile as the Petroff.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #22 - 09/05/11 at 19:00:26
Post Tools
Pantu wrote on 09/05/11 at 15:49:05:
Well, Aronian for one has said he plays the Berlin when he wants to win, and the Marshall when he is satisfied with a draw.

One big problem with the Berlin is that white has a couple of deviations that end up in a fairly sterile position especially 5 Re1.  So if white isn't up for a real game e.g. Smeets-Kramnik and Nakamura-Kramnik, both at Wijk aan Zee 2011, he has some fairly well known ways to do this.


That is an interesting choice. That sounds like playing the Najdorf when trying to draw and the Petroff in a must-win situation Smiley, but I can see how some want to positionally outplay their opponents in the Berlin. I was not sure how many favour doing so though, especially around the 2200+ level.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pantu
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 307
Joined: 12/30/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #21 - 09/05/11 at 15:49:05
Post Tools
Well, Aronian for one has said he plays the Berlin when he wants to win, and the Marshall when he is satisfied with a draw.

One big problem with the Berlin is that white has a couple of deviations that end up in a fairly sterile position especially 5 Re1.  So if white isn't up for a real game e.g. Smeets-Kramnik and Nakamura-Kramnik, both at Wijk aan Zee 2011, he has some fairly well known ways to do this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1583
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #20 - 09/05/11 at 11:07:02
Post Tools
I have no idea about the alternative, but ...h4 (after b3) looks like more of a weakening than strength in this game.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2148
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #19 - 09/05/11 at 07:16:40
Post Tools
Tend to agree with TN.
I have heard tell of folk who like to be walked on by women in high heels, or who stay at home to flay themselves with lengths of knotted rope.
But I can't see such becoming too popular.
Best avoid.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #18 - 09/05/11 at 06:18:18
Post Tools
If you look at the recent World Cup games you'll see that Black has some losing chances in the Berlin. I could be wrong but I think the Berlin Wall is about to experience a massive drop in popularity.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #17 - 09/05/11 at 04:05:37
Post Tools
I am around 2250 FIDE, but I have seen players around this level play the Berlin Wall and win (partly why I find the Berlin interesting and intrigued about how often people play it to win).
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2148
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #16 - 09/05/11 at 03:59:58
Post Tools
Are you, say, over 2500 rating?

If not, I really struggle to see the attraction, beyond the Bandwagonesque (thanks Teenage Fanclub for that).

You will suffer a lot.

(and yes I have seen Cox's book).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #15 - 09/05/11 at 03:33:27
Post Tools
I am interested in learning the Berlin, but how realistic are the winning chances for Black? Would it be advised to play it to positionally outplay a player who prefers sharp positions, and would it be advised to play it in a last round match of an open tournament where a win is absolutely necessary?
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1345
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #14 - 03/16/11 at 20:03:15
Post Tools
I got in trouble in a game in correspondence that continued

5. Re1 Nd6 6. Bf1 Be7 7. (tranposing to your move order Nxe5 Nxe5 8. Rxe5 0-0 9. Nc3 Bf6 10. Re1 Nf5 11. Nd5 d6 12. Nxf6+ Qxf6 13. c3 c5 14. Qf3 where white has a little something for sure thanks to the bishop pair. Game is still going but I should hold a draw however this is not a way to play the opening I care to repeat. Maybe I will try your Ne8 next time (Though Cox's book also reocmmends this). Of course, Cox called this whole line harmless for black.
« Last Edit: 03/17/11 at 03:59:21 by trw »  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #13 - 03/14/11 at 22:44:41
Post Tools
OK, so i'll reveal mine ideas. Not something deep, but a start:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Bf1 Nxe5 8. Rxe5 O-O 9. d4

(9. Nc3 Ne8 10. Nd5 Bd6 11. Re1 c6 12. Ne3 Bc7 13. Nf5 d5 14.Ne7+ Kh8 15. Nxc8 Rxc8
White has the Bishop pair but this was never considered as a notable advantage in this position
16. d3
(16. d4 f5N is fine for Black as there is no Knight to land on e5!)
16... f5N and Black's pawn-structure limits White's light-squared Bishop while he has a space advantage)

9... b6!? with the idea Bb7+f5 and Ne4 with g5 or Bg5 etc

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1345
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #12 - 03/14/11 at 17:34:44
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 03/14/11 at 08:41:57:
Of course i meant 9...Ke8 and not 9...Kh8 Sad (what was i thinking? Strange patterns work inside the mind. The move ...Kh8 is much more common than ...Ke8!)

Yes, i also disagree about with Mark here, even though making general remarks is always dangerous. There are sub-variations of the Berlin endgame (even lines that are considered main lines today, for example Kramnik's ...h5 variation) than kill the winning chances of both sides, so if Mark had those in mind when he said what he said he is right. But, in my opinion, there are lines (like the one i talked about) that give Black hopes for the win. There is also a ...Bf5 variation which is complex and unclear.

Let me present you a fraction of a recent game of mine featuring a strong novelty from my side. After 9.Nc3 i played 9...Be6 (another good continuation) and my well-prepared opponent played 10.Ng5 Ke7 11.f4! which is considered critical in Cox's Berlin book. I played with confidence 11...h5! which is (as i understand it!) best and my opponent played 12.Rd1 which was given in Cox's book as uncomfortable for Black based on a Carlsen's game from 2005 if i recall correctly. Now i played again what i think is logical and strong: 12...f6! which is (probably!) a novelty (that came to my mind after watching plenty of those recent Ke8+h5 games, where by the way Black is not equal according to what i have found) and after 13.exf6 gxf6 14.Nxe6 Kxe6 i won easily by playing Bd6-Kf7 and after White played g2-g3 i played in auto-pilot the position after Rag8+h4 with massive attack while the Rd1 looked really stupid!

A game proves nothing of course! But i use it as an example from my experience.

@trw: Is there a chance to reveal some ways you have found to make the position after 5.Re1 a bit more complicated?



I can reveal them but as I said they aren't very good.

actually I can't find the game now... I'll look again deeper later to find the physical copy. But the idea basically involved a well timed g5. You can see the risk with that shattering your own kingside but it led to a complicated game. To be honest, it wasn't an idea I would repeat unless I felt I had to win at all cost.
« Last Edit: 03/14/11 at 21:33:23 by trw »  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #11 - 03/14/11 at 08:41:57
Post Tools
Of course i meant 9...Ke8 and not 9...Kh8 Sad (what was i thinking? Strange patterns work inside the mind. The move ...Kh8 is much more common than ...Ke8!)

Yes, i also disagree about with Mark here, even though making general remarks is always dangerous. There are sub-variations of the Berlin endgame (even lines that are considered main lines today, for example Kramnik's ...h5 variation) than kill the winning chances of both sides, so if Mark had those in mind when he said what he said he is right. But, in my opinion, there are lines (like the one i talked about) that give Black hopes for the win. There is also a ...Bf5 variation which is complex and unclear.

Let me present you a fraction of a recent game of mine featuring a strong novelty from my side. After 9.Nc3 i played 9...Be6 (another good continuation) and my well-prepared opponent played 10.Ng5 Ke7 11.f4! which is considered critical in Cox's Berlin book. I played with confidence 11...h5! which is (as i understand it!) best and my opponent played 12.Rd1 which was given in Cox's book as uncomfortable for Black based on a Carlsen's game from 2005 if i recall correctly. Now i played again what i think is logical and strong: 12...f6! which is (probably!) a novelty (that came to my mind after watching plenty of those recent Ke8+h5 games, where by the way Black is not equal according to what i have found) and after 13.exf6 gxf6 14.Nxe6 Kxe6 i won easily by playing Bd6-Kf7 and after White played g2-g3 i played in auto-pilot the position after Rag8+h4 with massive attack while the Rd1 looked really stupid!

A game proves nothing of course! But i use it as an example from my experience.

@trw: Is there a chance to reveal some ways you have found to make the position after 5.Re1 a bit more complicated?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1345
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #10 - 03/14/11 at 08:07:13
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 03/14/11 at 07:54:53:
9.Nc3 Kh8! 10.h3 Be6! seems to be a good way for Black to play for the win. I see many GMs playing the move 10.Ne2 these days. Probably they try to avoid 10...Be6 (because of 11.Nf4) or at least make this move less strong now. 10...Be6 11.Nf4 Bd5 is given as equal by GM Kritz anyway.

The Berlin endgame in general is very complex and offers hopes for both sides to outplay their opponent. I believfe that in sub-2000 level a player with good feeling and some preparation (and experience) on this endgame would score point after point.

I will repeat myself and say once again that the big problem with the Berlin(in you want to play for the win) is the 7.Re1! variation (with the Bf1 retriet of course!). I would appreciate some ideas here for someone that has any because i have investigated it a lot and i found nothing! Dead dead equality (or even a slight +/=). The endgame is much more easily winable!



I'm confused how black plays Kh8 after 9 Nc3... King is on d8...

as to the sub 2000 yes its surprisingly good here even the sub 2200 level I have to say experience holds up well though not so much prep. Anand himself said there is no danger of preparation in the Berlin. Another reason I suppose that so many GMs these days have taken it up.

Kritz is still one of the leading theorists in the opening.

I agree 7. Re1 provides annoying equality but I've found ways to make it at least complicated - sometimes this route backfires though so its best just to stay with the =.

I meant no disrespect Markovich. I was just trying to say that alot of people do play it to win. I do. I went to a lecture yesterday by Women's World Champion Finalist Ruan Lufei. She showed her Berlin win game against former Women's World Champion Kosteniuk. Her comment on move 4 was that her best opening choice to have winning chances against Kosteniuk was the Berlin.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #9 - 03/14/11 at 07:54:53
Post Tools
9.Nc3 Kh8! 10.h3 Be6! seems to be a good way for Black to play for the win. I see many GMs playing the move 10.Ne2 these days. Probably they try to avoid 10...Be6 (because of 11.Nf4) or at least make this move less strong now. 10...Be6 11.Nf4 Bd5 is given as equal by GM Kritz anyway.

The Berlin endgame in general is very complex and offers hopes for both sides to outplay their opponent. I believfe that in sub-2000 level a player with good feeling and some preparation (and experience) on this endgame would score point after point.

I will repeat myself and say once again that the big problem with the Berlin(in you want to play for the win) is the 7.Re1! variation (with the Bf1 retriet of course!). I would appreciate some ideas here for someone that has any because i have investigated it a lot and i found nothing! Dead dead equality (or even a slight +/=). The endgame is much more easily winable!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
snakebite
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 81
Joined: 01/25/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #8 - 03/14/11 at 07:43:18
Post Tools
9 Nc3
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Net Warrior
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


1.e4 best by test...Bobby
Fischer

Posts: 45
Location: Long Island, NY
Joined: 08/15/09
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #7 - 03/14/11 at 02:44:07
Post Tools
I agree that we need white's 9th before the vote.  I've been toying with the idea of 9.b3 and IMHO there are other playable white 9ths that don't transpose into the "standard" white setup.
  

I play therefore I am (USCF "A")
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #6 - 03/13/11 at 22:07:41
Post Tools
trw wrote on 03/13/11 at 09:01:44:
Markovich wrote on 03/11/11 at 15:52:03:
The short answer is that if you need the full point and 3.Bb5 appears on the board, don't play the Berlin.

Aronian would respectfully disagree with you. He plays the Berlin to win and the Marshall to draw.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the question was, how should Aronian play for a win?

But in fairness my post was offtopic, so I'll shut up now.
« Last Edit: 03/14/11 at 01:27:16 by Markovich »  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1345
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #5 - 03/13/11 at 09:01:44
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 03/11/11 at 15:52:03:
The short answer is that if you need the full point and 3.Bb5 appears on the board, don't play the Berlin.

Aronian would respectfully disagree with you. He plays the Berlin to win and the Marshall to draw.

As to the poll... what is white's 9th move after 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8.... would help to know that before voting...

I find 9... Ne7 ugly as heck no matter what white does.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #4 - 03/12/11 at 21:46:50
Post Tools
The BIG problem with the Berlin if you want to play for the win is the Re1 variation. In the endgame i think that Ke8 and after h3 Be6! is excellent for Black who keeps flexibility with the Nf5. In my opinion the Ke8+h5 variation is in White's favour.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1984
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #3 - 03/12/11 at 19:48:17
Post Tools
Well virtually anything is a better choice for win vs a heavily booked, unambitious white than the Marshall Smiley

But the Berlin ending is ambitious so presumably not such an awful choice. Not sure how black generates any play vs the odd thing like Re1 and Bf1 though.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
snakebite
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 81
Joined: 01/25/06
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #2 - 03/12/11 at 14:37:59
Post Tools
Interesting to see Carslen using it earlier this year when he needed to won with black, plus Aronian used it in preference to the Marshall to beat Kamsky a few years ago....saying something along the lines of it being better suited to the task of winning than the Marshall.
Versus attacking players I feel it is a resonable choice for the patient, bishop loving player.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
Reply #1 - 03/11/11 at 15:52:03
Post Tools
The short answer is that if you need the full point and 3.Bb5 appears on the board, don't play the Berlin.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
snakebite
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 81
Joined: 01/25/06
Black's best winning chances in the Berlin endgame
03/11/11 at 10:17:38
Post Tools
Carlsen recently stated that 9...Bd7 gave black winning chances in the Berlin whilst the Kramnik method (9...Ke8 followed by...h5) was drawish.  Yet Topalov has generally played ...Ne7 instead (somebody known for fighting chess).
So which line do people think gives black he best chances of playing for a win?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo