F22 wrote on 09/18/11 at 10:41:04:

It merely means that if you fear this, you should play 1.d4. Nobody said chess would be easy.

The maneuver Ng8-f6-e4-d6-f5-e7-d5-b4-d5-e7-d5-e7-f5-e7-g6 to win the e5 pawn will come in handy

While the Berlin endgame is objective speaking whites strongest line against Berlin variation (where I rather play white but thats only me) white has other options as well. These options leeds to equal play but it is still middelgame play and not an endgame so black can techically only force an endgame if white plays the mainline.

The only forced endgames I can think of in the Ruy Lopez are the Exchange and the Berlin. 1. e4 players can avoid the Exchange but not the Berlin, so the Berlin is the only method of Black forcing an endgame (or middlegame-endgame). So I am thinking that playing the Berlin against aggressive 1. e4 players, especially if they lack endgame proficiency, would yield good winning chances, even playing against someone of the same rating or higher.

ghenghisclown wrote on 09/16/11 at 10:21:59:


Cheers.  I watched that video and it mentioned CB11, but I have CB8 and it wasn't clear if it would still work.  The DVDs come with CBLight installed I think.  Still, it seems like I'll be good to go.

ghenghisclown wrote on 09/15/11 at 09:30:23:



Help a simpleton out.  Can I assume that if I can run a Chessbase DVD (I have Kasparov's on the Queen's Gambit and Kramnik's best games) I can watch this download if I buy it?

Ponomariov playing the Berlin and winning in a crucial (semifinal?) game in the World Cup:

http://chess.ugrasport.com/?page_id=1007&gameid=1000520004

Oblonskij wrote on 09/06/11 at 11:06:53:


Not the only thing that usually backfires unless you are Ivanchuk.

Back on topic:

After any move but 9 Nc3, I would think Black can relax and play useful moves, e.g. ...h6, ...Be7, ...Bd7, maybe ...Kc8, and wait for White to do something with the knight.  If it goes anywhere but c3, then c6-c5 should be good, followed by putting the bishop on c6.  Not that that is necessarily anything, but it should dissuade White from any attempt to prove an advantage, since Black is just getting a good version of 9...Bd7.

Maybe I am unusual, but I find that some Berlin positions are fun to play for Black, perhaps especially effective against aggressive players who play 1. e4 to attack. I cannot recall another Ruy Lopez system whose main line transpires into an endgame so quickly.

Decisions of2700s are irrelevant to 2200s. 
Aronian, Carlsen have better technique than those 500 points below. Obviously.

Well, I think the point is that the Marshall is so heavily analysed, has multiple forced draws in it, and black is often going into a pawn down ending where the bishop pair provide enough compensation to draw.  It is very hard to win with at a high level where people know their stuff.

The Berlin has much less forcing lines and requires both sides to actually play rather than trotting out theory.  The caveat is that, as I said, white can bail out but there are few openings where that is not possible and most 2600+ players are reluctant to give up a white for nothing.

Carlsen has also been using the Berlin to win, and the Breyer as his more heavily analysed "solid" choice.

Currently I think the Berlin is almost the main choice of the 2700+ when wanting to win as black vs 1 e4...in the endgame the positions just aren't as sterile as the Petroff.

Well, Aronian for one has said he plays the Berlin when he wants to win, and the Marshall when he is satisfied with a draw.

One big problem with the Berlin is that white has a couple of deviations that end up in a fairly sterile position especially 5 Re1.  So if white isn't up for a real game e.g. Smeets-Kramnik and Nakamura-Kramnik, both at Wijk aan Zee 2011, he has some fairly well known ways to do this.

Tend to agree with TN. 
I have heard tell of folk who like to be walked on by women in high heels, or who stay at home to flay themselves with lengths of knotted rope.
But I can't see such becoming too popular.
Best avoid.

I am around 2250 FIDE, but I have seen players around this level play the Berlin Wall and win (partly why I find the Berlin interesting and intrigued about how often people play it to win).

I am interested in learning the Berlin, but how realistic are the winning chances for Black? Would it be advised to play it to positionally outplay a player who prefers sharp positions, and would it be advised to play it in a last round match of an open tournament where a win is absolutely necessary?

OK, so i'll reveal mine ideas. Not something deep, but a start:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Re1 Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Bf1 Nxe5 8. Rxe5 O-O 9. d4 

(9. Nc3 Ne8 10. Nd5 Bd6 11. Re1 c6 12. Ne3 Bc7 13. Nf5 d5 14.Ne7+ Kh8 15. Nxc8 Rxc8
White has the Bishop pair but this was never considered as a notable advantage in this position 
16. d3
(16. d4 f5N is fine for Black as there is no Knight to land on e5!) 
16... f5N and Black's pawn-structure limits White's light-squared Bishop while he has a space advantage)

9... b6!? with the idea Bb7+f5 and Ne4 with g5 or Bg5 etc

Of course i meant 9...Ke8 and not 9...Kh8 (what was i thinking? Strange patterns work inside the mind. The move ...Kh8 is much more common than ...Ke8!)

Yes, i also disagree about with Mark here, even though making general remarks is always dangerous. There are sub-variations of the Berlin endgame (even lines that are considered main lines today, for example Kramnik's ...h5 variation) than kill the winning chances of both sides, so if Mark had those in mind when he said what he said he is right. But, in my opinion, there are lines (like the one i talked about) that give Black hopes for the win. There is also a ...Bf5 variation which is complex and unclear.

Let me present you a fraction of a recent game of mine featuring a strong novelty from my side. After 9.Nc3 i played 9...Be6 (another good continuation) and my well-prepared opponent played 10.Ng5 Ke7 11.f4! which is considered critical in Cox's Berlin book. I played with confidence 11...h5! which is (as i understand it!) best and my opponent played 12.Rd1 which was given in Cox's book as uncomfortable for Black based on a Carlsen's game from 2005 if i recall correctly. Now i played again what i think is logical and strong: 12...f6! which is (probably!) a novelty (that came to my mind after watching plenty of those recent Ke8+h5 games, where by the way Black is not equal according to what i have found) and after 13.exf6 gxf6 14.Nxe6 Kxe6 i won easily by playing Bd6-Kf7 and after White played g2-g3 i played in auto-pilot the position after Rag8+h4 with massive attack while the Rd1 looked really stupid!

A game proves nothing of course! But i use it as an example from my experience.

@trw: Is there a chance to reveal some ways you have found to make the position after 5.Re1 a bit more complicated?

9.Nc3 Kh8! 10.h3 Be6! seems to be a good way for Black to play for the win. I see many GMs playing the move 10.Ne2 these days. Probably they try to avoid 10...Be6 (because of 11.Nf4) or at least make this move less strong now. 10...Be6 11.Nf4 Bd5 is given as equal by GM Kritz anyway.

The Berlin endgame in general is very complex and offers hopes for both sides to outplay their opponent. I believfe that in sub-2000 level a player with good feeling and some preparation (and experience) on this endgame would score point after point.

I will repeat myself and say once again that the big problem with the Berlin(in you want to play for the win) is the 7.Re1! variation (with the Bf1 retriet of course!). I would appreciate some ideas here for someone that has any because i have investigated it a lot and i found nothing! Dead dead equality (or even a slight +/=). The endgame is much more easily winable!

I agree that we need white's 9th before the vote.  I've been toying with the idea of 9.b3 and IMHO there are other playable white 9ths that don't transpose into the "standard" white setup.

Markovich wrote on 03/11/11 at 15:52:03:

Aronian would respectfully disagree with you. He plays the Berlin to win and the Marshall to draw.

As to the poll... what is white's 9th move after 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8.... would help to know that before voting...

I find 9... Ne7 ugly as heck no matter what white does.

Well virtually anything is a better choice for win vs a heavily booked, unambitious white than the Marshall

But the Berlin ending is ambitious so presumably not such an awful choice. Not sure how black generates any play vs the odd thing like Re1 and Bf1 though.

The short answer is that if you need the full point and 3.Bb5 appears on the board, don't play the Berlin.