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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00-C19: French Defence--State of Theory (Read 39374 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #40 - 04/17/11 at 13:37:35
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Stigma wrote on 04/16/11 at 14:18:17:
That's like hearing John Watson, "The Tarrasch is so inoffensive", "Black can play any move he likes, even ...a6 and ...h6" etc.

Sorry, I don't buy it. White is still White in the French Tarrasch, Black is the one trying to equalize. Thogh 3...c5 with ...Qxd5 looks like a very good candidate to achieve that equality nowadays.


This is what Gary Kasparov wrote of Karpov-Uhlman, 1973 after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.ed5 ed5:

By present-day standards, it is hard for White to play for a win in this variation. And even Karpov, for all his amazing skill in accumulating small pluses and transforming them into a more substantial advantage, would hardly have achieved such successes without the 'help' of his opponents. (My Great Predecessors vol. V pages 227-228)

4.ed5 is the most common moves among masters, but Kasparov preferred 4.Nf3.

Perhaps the entire Tarrasch isn't drawish, but the statistics rather suggest it is. Apparently, Black can play either 4.ed5 ed5 or 4.ed5 Qd5 and hope for equality out of the opening.

I never liked this option much as Black, and choose 3...Nf6 instead. I increase my losing chances dramatically, but I also improve my winning chances.
  
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MNb
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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #39 - 04/17/11 at 12:49:16
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Salto Mortale? Huh? I thought that was something for acrobats. Could you provide moves?

My ICCF-rating is about 2050 at the moment. I have no idea what the average rating of my opponents is, becaus I don't keep track of such things.
Two games:

Sjebenjuk,N - Nieuweboer,M [C05]
em J50/P052 ICCF, 2001

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ndf3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Qb6 9.Ne2 f6 10.a3 Be7 11.Nc3 fxe5 12.fxe5 0-0 13.Na4 Qc7 14.Bd3 Rxf3 15.gxf3 Nxd4 16.f4 Nxe5 17.fxe5 Qxe5+ 18.Kf1 Bd7 19.Kg2 Rf8 20.Nc3 Nf3 0-1

Grabowski,B - Nieuweboer,M [C06]
em WS/H/187 ICCF, 2009

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.0-0 Bd6 11.Nf3 0-0 12.Bf4 Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Ng4 14.Qd2 Qd6 15.g3 e5 16.dxe5 Qh6 17.h4 Ngxe5 18.Be2 Rd8 19.Rfd1 d4 20.Rac1 Qd6 21.Qc2 g6 22.h5 Bf5 23.Qb3+ Kh8 24.hxg6 hxg6 25.Kg2 Rd7 26.Ng5 Na5 27.Qb5 Nac6 28.Bc4 Nxc4 29.Qxc4 Kg7 30.Nge6+ Kf6 31.Nc5 Rh7 32.Rh1 Rxh1 33.Rxh1 Ne5 34.Qd5 Rd8 35.Ne4+ Bxe4+ 36.Qxe4 Qc6 37.Qxc6+ bxc6 38.Ne2 c5 39.b3 Kf5 40.Rd1 Ke4 41.Rh1 a5 42.Rh4+ Kd3 43.Nf4+ Kc2 44.Rh7 d3 45.Nxd3 Rxd3 46.Rc7 Rd5 47.f4 Rd2+ 48.Kh3 Nd3 49.Ra7 Kb1 50.Rxa5 Rxa2 51.Rb5 Kc2 52.Rb6 Ra3 53.Kh4 Rxb3 54.Rxg6 c4 55.f5 c3 56.f6 Ne5 57.Rg7 Kb1 0-1

  

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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #38 - 04/17/11 at 12:09:41
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Hi all, Hi MNb: a question: Do you think the variation Salto Mortale gives white at the very least a draw? Do you feel confortable trying to win against it? What is the average oposition against whom you have such a wonderful perfomance and what is your ELO. Mine is 1875 and I struggle against salto Mortale Embarrassed
  
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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #37 - 04/16/11 at 15:53:32
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Perhaps I'm partly influenced by Watson but I think he makes a pretty good case for 3..h6 in "Dangerous Weapons". 3. Nd2 is a bit uncoordinated and it is difficult to make use of the h6.

For example, normal moves: 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. e5 Nd7 6. Bd3 c5 7. c3 Nc6 8. 0-0 g5! 9. h3 h5  and black is probably already slightly better.

The moves that score best in my database are the "waiting moves" 3... Be7, 3... a6 and 3.. h6 which perhaps is no coincidence.
  
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MNb
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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #36 - 04/16/11 at 14:37:22
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Stigma wrote on 04/16/11 at 14:18:17:
As a French player myself 3.Nd2 is the move I least like to see played against me.

I'm not going to state that 3.Nd2 is easy to meet, but I have excellent results against it. I play 3...Nf6 exclusively because I love (half)open f-files.
  

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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #35 - 04/16/11 at 14:18:17
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That's like hearing John Watson, "The Tarrasch is so inoffensive", "Black can play any move he likes, even ...a6 and ...h6" etc.

Sorry, I don't buy it. White is still White in the French Tarrasch, Black is the one trying to equalize. Thogh 3...c5 with ...Qxd5 looks like a very good candidate to achieve that equality nowadays.

It's very dangerous to believe that Black can get away with anything, since on the one hand White can play very safely, on the other hand the positions can become very sharp suddenly. As a French player myself 3.Nd2 is the move I least like to see played against me.
  

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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #34 - 04/16/11 at 13:07:22
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Nobody seems to have mentioned the Guimard 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nc6 which I think is an excellent choice. Theoretically (and according to my analysis of the main lines) any white advantage (if it exists) is very small. You'll have to learn some theory due to the extremely sharp stuff but it is not that much and then you will have lots of chances to outplay your opponent.

And vs 3.Nd2 there is at least seven fully playable options:

3... Nf6
3... c5
3... Be7
3... Nc6
3... a6
3... h6
3... dxe4

The Advance also gives black many good systems to choose from, making
Nc3 with the Qg4 plans the only real theoretical challenge. But as mentioned above , the PP seems currently in good shape.

So for example a repertoire with Winawer PP, Guimard and early Nh6 versus the Advance (3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Nh6 followed up by f6) is both sharp and entertaining as well as theoretically sound.

Of course, if white throws an undefended pawn into the centre just like that in the first move, it must be punished! Smiley

e6, d5 attacks the pawn and if white tries to keep the centre with e5 black continues attacking with f6 and c5... The other ways to challenge e4 are worse, both 1.. d5 and 1.. Nf6 lose a tempo.
  
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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #33 - 03/21/11 at 18:19:48
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I've been out of town since starting this thread; thanks for all the replies, you've given me some food for thought.
  
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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #32 - 03/20/11 at 21:44:49
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/20/11 at 17:45:20:
In the Tarrasch line we discussed about i prefer 10...Be7 when 11.b3 (Tzermiadianos' main line) can be met by 11...O-O 12.Bb2 a6!? 13.Qf3 Qc7 14.Re1 Re8!? with the idea ...Bd7-Rad8 and finally ...e5+Bc5+Bd4. If White moves the knight from d4 then ...Bb5 is the move. I'd like to hear another solution for Black in the 10nth move though. Probably BPaulsen can help if he doesn't want to reveal any secret. At least he can tell us his 10nth move preference.


10...Bd7 has been my preference, with a lot of personal analysis there.

I don't think 10...Be7 has deserved the neglect it's gotten, either. Apparently neither did Moskalenko in his "The Flexible French" book.

The line you mention looks fine for black, may even give it a punt myself.
  

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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #31 - 03/20/11 at 20:10:31
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/20/11 at 18:26:06:
I know the Winawer is a good practical OTB challenge, but I never had much faith in that as a correspondence game either.

Actually I drew four games with Black after 3...Bb4. That's my biggest problem at the moment: I hardly ever win after 3.Nc3. My score against other setups is excellent though.

Anyhow, I played the Black Queen Blues a la Hook twice. I think 8...g6 rather ugly. Maybe I have to rethink this again, as the weaknesses evaporate if Black castles Queenside and advances the g- and h-pawn. In that case I'm not sure what the Queen is doing on a4 though.
In the other two games I played 7...Kf8 iso the more regular 7...0-0 (which I think way too risky) or 7...Qc7. I have had an unfortunate experience with the PP two years ago and did not did not want to risk it again in a team competition.
Though I am satisfied with not losing (the previous time I lost several games using the Open Ruy Lopez) I also felt I had almost zero winning chances.
So perhaps I have to go back to the PP after all, though that h-pawn quite worries me - more than the pawn deficit. Some middle ground would be nice. I have considered Botvinnik's ...Qc7 and ...f5, but again don't like the lines in which Black has to castle kingside.
Perhaps 4...Ne7 and 6...b6 is a solution, though I agree with Psachis that 7.Nh3 Ng6 8.a4 c5 9.a5 causes a few headaches.
I don't see myself walking in the footsteps of Petrosjan with 4...b6 and x...Bf8, no matter how amusing this stuff is.
  

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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #30 - 03/20/11 at 18:26:06
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I was glad to see MNb draw as Black with the French in a correspondence game. I've rather lost faith in it at the correspondence level.

I agree that the Steinitz is one of the toughest challenges to Black, but the Classical Alekhin-Chatard Attack and MacCutcheon aren't exactly safe draws either.

I know the Winawer is a good practical OTB challenge, but I never had much faith in that as a correspondence game either. Maybe one day I'll splurge on a Correspondence database and find some secret line in the French that gives Black hope.

Or maybe someone can give a few good examples of how to play against these lines that holds up under correspondence and +2650 scrutiny.
  
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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #29 - 03/20/11 at 17:45:20
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I don't know if Black is absolutely fine after 3.Nc3 according to today's theory and i'd be happy to hear BPaulsen's solution to this. I prefer the PP as is it imo the most promising line in both theory and OTB althought there are some ideas for White that seem pretty dangerous.

In the Tarrasch line we discussed about i prefer 10...Be7 when 11.b3 (Tzermiadianos' main line) can be met by 11...O-O 12.Bb2 a6!? 13.Qf3 Qc7 14.Re1 Re8!? with the idea ...Bd7-Rad8 and finally ...e5+Bc5+Bd4. If White moves the knight from d4 then ...Bb5 is the move. I'd like to hear another solution for Black in the 10nth move though. Probably BPaulsen can help if he doesn't want to reveal any secret. At least he can tell us his 10nth move preference.

In the exchange i like the ...Nc6 ideas but in the oppoiste castling variation if someone follows Watson's analysis he will be lost! White is faster there! But there is a nice idea that was played by Rubinstein 100 years ago (!) where Black plays a flexible ...f6 move waiting for the d2 knight to go to f1 before he plays O-O-O. Now the Knight cannot go to b3 to attack the King. If White plays something else like b4, then Black happily castles K-side when he can claim a slight weakening of White's position. I am not afraid of the Exchange as a drawing possibility.

In the Advance i play Euwe's line but i feel that i need to study something new there. Not because i dislike the positions, but because i play this line 15 years now! I want something new!
  
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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #28 - 03/20/11 at 08:08:49
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Markovich wrote on 03/20/11 at 02:38:13:
What, are you back with the French then, BPaulsen? That is news.


Things look rosy right now from a theoretical perspective, so yeah. The only problems I can see at the moment are purely practical...

Not that I've abandoned the C-K. It was nice to see the Motylev-Alsina Leal, Moscow 2011 game in the Advance there.

Basically they're 1A/1B in my eyes for now. I welcome any problem lines to be brought up, of course.
  

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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #27 - 03/20/11 at 08:05:36
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Gueler wrote on 03/20/11 at 03:14:14:
BPaulsen wrote on 03/19/11 at 01:15:04:
11...a6 isn't my preference, despite it being the formal "main line" by number of games played.


11. ... a6?

Aren't you referring to 10. ... a6 as in:  1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. ed5 Qd5 5. Ngf3 cd4 6. Bc4 Qd6 7. 0-0 Nf6 8. Nb3 Nc6 9. Nbd4 Nd4 10. Nd4 a6 ?


Typo, yes (that's the only time a6 is the main move, anyway).
  

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Re: French Defence--State of Theory
Reply #26 - 03/20/11 at 03:14:14
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BPaulsen wrote on 03/19/11 at 01:15:04:
11...a6 isn't my preference, despite it being the formal "main line" by number of games played.


11. ... a6?

Aren't you referring to 10. ... a6 as in:  1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. ed5 Qd5 5. Ngf3 cd4 6. Bc4 Qd6 7. 0-0 Nf6 8. Nb3 Nc6 9. Nbd4 Nd4 10. Nd4 a6 ?
  
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