Gambit wrote on 03/25/11 at 16:43:02:


Pawn on h3, pawn on h2 is by no means a small distinction, that is my point.  On h2 it may require a tempo to defend in many lines.  Normally Black exchanges on g6 with his N, so a r on h8 and a b on d6 combine to attack this pawn.

Scheerer recommends (5...Bf5 6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6) 8.Bg2 c6 9.h4 which is a direct transposition to 5...Bg4 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 e6 9.Bg2 c6 10.h4, e.g. 10...Bb4 11.0-0 Nbd7 12.Nxg6 hxg6 13.g5 Nd5 14.Ne4 when White has a space advantage and long-term pressure down the f-file in return for the pawn (Scheerer gives some more sample lines from here).

However Diebert's preference 8.g5!? is certainly interesting and isn't mentioned by Scheerer.  8...Nd5 is probably best (8...Ne4 9.Bg2 is indeed quite strong) when play might continue 9.Bg2 (the immediate 9.Nxg6 hxg6 10.Bg2 c6 11.Ne4 also comes into consideration) 9...c6 10.0-0 Bd6 (Fritz 10's preference is 10...Ne7 intending ...Nf5, e.g. 11.Nxg6 hxg6 12.Ne4 Nf5 13.c3 or 11.Bf4 Nd7 12.Nxg6 hxg6 13.Ne4 Nf5 14.c3, when Fritz prefers Black, but I'm not so sure- White retains extra space and the f-file and can advance on the Q-side if Black castles there) 11.Ne4.  All of this is certainly worth investigating, but White always has 8.Bg2 if it doesn't work out.

As an aside, in the line 5...Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6, I used to prefer the classical 8.Be3, but Scheerer's analysis suggests that while 8.Be3 isn't bad, 8.g4 leads to more attractive positions for White, as the attacking ideas are more intuitive.

My point was that 8.g5!? is worth looking at for White.  Diebert thinks it is, and he is a formidable BDG expert.  I hope we can save time by not splitting terminological hairs.  The important thing is to agree which position is on the board at any given point in the discussion.

But isn't the Teichmann with 5...Bg4?  If so the alleged transpo is not a transpo, because White's pawn isn't on h3, an important detail in some variations.

Several inaccuracies here. I shall address them in order.

First, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 is not the BDG any more than 1 e4 e5 is the King's Gambit. Rather, the BDG arises after 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3. The original Blackmar Gambit arises 2...dxe4 3 f3?!

Second, I do not believe the Bogoljubow Defense is critical. The Studier Attack, 8 Qe1, looks interesting, but has been too over-analyzed in my opinion. I have had success with the Studier-Zilbermints (aka Delayed Studier, Orlov's Line) Attack, 8 h3, and only then 9 Qe1, etc. While 8...Nc6 is the critical move, most players treat 8 h3 as another pawn move. Say what you will, in my experience I have seen more people play 8...Nbd7 than 8...Nc6. So this line does have practical chances.  As for 6 Bf4, that is good alternative to the Studier Attack.

Third, in the Gunderam Defense, 5 Ne5 e6 6 g4 Bg6
7 g5 Nd5 8 Qf3 transposes to the Teichmann Defense. Hardly unknown territory for a veteran BDG'er. Moreover, what is wrong with 7 Qf3 ? That move has been played for decades! It is the classical continuation. For instance, after 5 Ne5 e6 6 g4 Bg6 7 Qf3 c6 8 g5 Nd5 8 Bd3 Nd7 9 00 Qe7 10 Nxd5 cxd5
White has the better position. He needs to play Bd2-Rf2-Raf1, unleashing a crushing attack on the Black kingside. I actually had this in a game back in 1996, but unfortunately lost the scorebook.

Fourth, the Ryder Gambit. I would be less concerned about the  6...Qh4 7 g3 Qb4 than with the traditional remedy. After all, the Qb4 is still a target. What about 8 Bd2 ? Now if 8...Qxb2 9 Rb1 Qa3 10 Rb3 with play similar to the Englund Gambit. Does White have compensation? Yes. He is threatening to win a Rook by Nd5/Nb5. Black is underdeveloped. Now, if Black does not take on b2, White can play 000, at which point his lead in development looks dangerous.

I think if Black wants to get winning chances, one has to start by accepting the gambit (if 2...dxe4 3.Nc3 e5, then White has the option of the very drawish 4.dxe5, and 3...Nf6 4.f3 e3 probably leaves White a bit better, and Scheerer's analysis suggests that 4...Bf5 isn't a good winning try after 5.fxe4, in addition to giving White the chance to play for more with 5.g4).   

I don't know of any ways for Black to get a theoretical advantage, but maybe 2...dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 might be Black's best winning try at present.  Most opponents will play the Studier Attack (6.Bc4 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Qe1) when Black is probably significantly better after 8...Nc6 9.Qh4 Bg4!.  The rarer 6.Bf4 probably leads to roughly equal play, where Black can choose between 6...Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 with an attacking race, or 6...c6 with the intention of keeping the king on e8 for a while- the latter is largely unexplored and may catch out BDG players using Scheerer's book, as he only considers Black's automatic ...Bg7 and ...0-0.

The most theoretically critical line remains 4/5...c6 but I'm not sure about Black's winning chances in Lev Gutman's suggestion with 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bg5 e6 8.Nh4.  The Gunderam Defence (5...Bf5) is also critical, when Scheerer's book suggests that 6.Ne5 c6 is the most accurate continuation (6...e6 7.g4! Bg6 8.Bg2! transposes to the Teichmann Defence, which isn't looking very critical these days), but probably not enough for a theoretical edge.  There is also the Euwe Defence (5...e6) but 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Qd2 continues to look dynamically equal while Scheerer also makes a fair case for 7.Bd3 c5 8.0-0 and 7...Nc6 8.a3.

5.Qxf3 isn't a problem- instead of the traditional remedy 5...Qxd4 6.Be3 Qg4 7.Qf2 e5, MNb's suggestion 6...Qh4+ 7.g3 Qb4 is probably even stronger (the pawn on g3 prevents White from playing Qg3 which is the way to get sufficient compensation against the inaccurate 6...Qb4?!, and Black ends up with a two-pawn advantage for one pawn's worth of compensation).

I am happy for him (and this is completely serious; I dislike bans).

MNb wrote on 03/21/11 at 23:20:44:

I gave "5.fxe4 Qh4+ 6.Ke2 Bxc3 7.bxc3 Nf6 8.Nf3 (not 8.e5 Ne4 9.Qe1 Qxe1+ 10.Kxe1 Nxc3) 8...Qg4 9.h3 Qg6 =+" in the other thread, but I agree, nonetheless, that it's a better bet for White than 5.a3 (I maintain that in the WRG, 6...c5 =+ at least).

I'm not as concerned about 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.f3 Bb4 (which I could easily get as White, as I employ 4.Bg5 and would be tempted to meet 4...dxe4 with 5.f3 envisaging direct transposition to the Euwe Defence) as 6.fxe4 doesn't allow ...Qh4+ with the knight on f6.

Hadron wrote on 03/22/11 at 00:37:19:

True, and i'm sure in otb play its quite fine. But the question was whether it would be viable with a longer time control ala corr and the answer is a resounding no.