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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) benko is boring nowadays (Read 25932 times)
Semkov
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #24 - 05/19/11 at 18:39:53
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[quote 4.Nf3 g6 - given that White has a wide range of possibilities on move 5, I'm interested to know which line you think gives White an edge. 
[/quote]
5.cxb5 a6 6.b6 - see Squeezing the Gambits by K.Georgiev.
  
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MNb
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #23 - 05/19/11 at 16:47:36
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No, but I still feel to sick to analyse the game. After a few months I will.
Yeah, I had forgotten about the pgn function. Next time I will use it; it's so simple that even I understand it (I clicked on Quote at Klick's post).
  

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TalJechin
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #22 - 05/19/11 at 09:59:28
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MNb wrote on 05/09/11 at 02:17:57:
If chess is an addiction, then this game is a bad trip.

MNb - Sobry,S [A57]
em WS/H/267, 2011

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 b5 4.cxb5 a6 5.f3 e6 6.e4 exd5 7.e5 Qe7 8.Qe2 Ng8 9.Nc3 Bb7 10.Nh3 c4 11.Nf4 Qc5 12.Nfxd5 Bxd5 13.Be3 Qb4 14.a3 Qa5 15.Bd2 Be6 16.Nd5 Qd8 17.Qxc4 Ra7 18.Rc1 Bxd5 19.Qxd5 axb5 20.Bxb5 Ne7 21.Qe4 Qb6 22.a4 Qb7 23.Qc4 Nbc6 24.0-0 g6 25.Bg5 Qb6+ 26.Kh1 Bg7 27.Rfe1 Qd4 28.Qe2 Rc7 29.Red1 Qb6 30.Be3 Qb8 31.Bc5 0-0 32.Bd6 Nf5 33.Bxc7 Qxc7 34.f4 Qa7 35.Qe4 h5 36.b4 Ncd4 37.Bc4 d6 38.a5 Kh7 39.a6 Rb8 40.Qd5 Ne6 41.exd6 Ne3 42.Qd2 Nxd1 43.Rxd1 Nd4 44.Qa2 Rb6 45.d7 Rd6 46.Bxf7 Rxd7 47.Bg8+ Kh6 48.Bc4 Nf5 49.Rxd7 Qxd7 50.Qb1 Ne3 0-1


Any idea where you went wrong? It certainly looked very promising to the human eye. I haven't checked with the engines yet, but maybe 21.Qd4 instead of 21.Qe4 to keep Qd8 at home? Or did you have any improvements after 21...Qb6 ?


Btw, it's now easy to post the pgn as a board, just copy the game and click the PGN button and paste between the tags.
  
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Keano
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #21 - 05/18/11 at 09:58:53
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I gave it up also, but somehow end up playing it now and then for some strange reason, not been keeping up to date with the improvements, but its never likely to get blown away by anything.
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #20 - 05/18/11 at 08:06:29
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I played the Benko for 20 years but gave it up 10 years ago. It's main deficit as far as I'm concerned is not the Benko iteself! but all the numerous ways white can avoid it. Like 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3; 1.c4 / 1.Nf3 (you have to learn aother opening here). I was struggling against basically all of these.
10 years ago I changed to the Dutch Leningrad and that has worked wonderfully well for me, in particular since you can play it against 1.d4/c4/Nf3.
  
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MNb
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #19 - 05/09/11 at 21:49:46
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10 moves in 50 days.
Thanks for the pgn-feature.
  

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Klick
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #18 - 05/09/11 at 12:07:40
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The game using the new pgn-feature:



What time-control was this game?
  

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MNb
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #17 - 05/09/11 at 02:17:57
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If chess is an addiction, then this game is a bad trip.

MNb - Sobry,S [A57]
em WS/H/267, 2011

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 b5 4.cxb5 a6 5.f3 e6 6.e4 exd5 7.e5 Qe7 8.Qe2 Ng8 9.Nc3 Bb7 10.Nh3 c4 11.Nf4 Qc5 12.Nfxd5 Bxd5 13.Be3 Qb4 14.a3 Qa5 15.Bd2 Be6 16.Nd5 Qd8 17.Qxc4 Ra7 18.Rc1 Bxd5 19.Qxd5 axb5 20.Bxb5 Ne7 21.Qe4 Qb6 22.a4 Qb7 23.Qc4 Nbc6 24.0-0 g6 25.Bg5 Qb6+ 26.Kh1 Bg7 27.Rfe1 Qd4 28.Qe2 Rc7 29.Red1 Qb6 30.Be3 Qb8 31.Bc5 0-0 32.Bd6 Nf5 33.Bxc7 Qxc7 34.f4 Qa7 35.Qe4 h5 36.b4 Ncd4 37.Bc4 d6 38.a5 Kh7 39.a6 Rb8 40.Qd5 Ne6 41.exd6 Ne3 42.Qd2 Nxd1 43.Rxd1 Nd4 44.Qa2 Rb6 45.d7 Rd6 46.Bxf7 Rxd7 47.Bg8+ Kh6 48.Bc4 Nf5 49.Rxd7 Qxd7 50.Qb1 Ne3 0-1
  

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Lauri Torni
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #16 - 03/22/11 at 19:44:54
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Dink Heckler wrote on 03/22/11 at 14:49:49:
@OP, your disillusionment is in some regards understandable. In the last few decades (the period you have been playing the Benko), the opening has gone from a 'frontier' opening to a mainstream one. So the ideas are more widely understood, the lines are investigated in much, much more depth etc. So the days of catching White on the hop are by and large at an end, and now it's just another Black opening.

So if those are your feelings, by all means move on to another frontier...they are fewer and better mapped these days, but still, there must remain a few spots on the map which Google, Rybka et al haven't thoroughly mapped out  Smiley


Smiley Thanks for encouragement!
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Dink Heckler
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #15 - 03/22/11 at 14:49:49
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@OP, your disillusionment is in some regards understandable. In the last few decades (the period you have been playing the Benko), the opening has gone from a 'frontier' opening to a mainstream one. So the ideas are more widely understood, the lines are investigated in much, much more depth etc. So the days of catching White on the hop are by and large at an end, and now it's just another Black opening.

So if those are your feelings, by all means move on to another frontier...they are fewer and better mapped these days, but still, there must remain a few spots on the map which Google, Rybka et al haven't thoroughly mapped out  Smiley
  

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Lauri Torni
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #14 - 03/22/11 at 14:12:39
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My finnish selo is 2090, that is 2100-2200 Fide elo.

>I have played the Benko a fair bit, and only very recently dropped it from my Black repertoire.

Why did you stop playing it? I'm considering dropping too.

When commenting, I would like to emphasize, that in addition to theoretical advantage one must pay attention to psychological advantage (for whom to lines are easier/more fun to play). In many anti-benko lines black has to give up normal benko-positions to have some changes for equalizing. Overall I think white has several lines that give him a comfortable game.  Some lines also promise a theoretically better game.

>To get the discussion rolling, here are the games on which I base the above assessments:
>4.Qc2 - Ding-Nepomniachtchi, CHN-RUS Summit rapid 2009
 
4.Qc2 scores well. In my database (last 10 years, both players 2300+) 64%. This is easy solution to those who have no passion for studying much. 

>4.a4 - Ward-Kinsman, Wrexham 1998

after 4.a4 bc , f4-lines are dynamic and very unclear. White has in practise good attacking possibilities. Possible is also 4.-b4 , it is close to equal but rigid.

>4.Nf3 g6 - given that White has a wide range of possibilities on move 5, I'm interested to know which line you think gives White an edge.
 
4.Nf3 scores also well. In my database (last 10 years, both players 2300+) 62%. Here (after 4.-g6) 5.Qc2 (57%)  is one good solution, but 5.cb a6 6.b6 (6.Qc2!?, 68%, 6.e4!?) is at least comfortable for white. In my opining white has in these lines a small advantage. 4.Nf3 is good choice. I have played it too.

>5.b6 e6 - Gleizerov-Tregubov, Krasnoyarsk 2003

These are close to equal, but white has also here scored well (59%)

>5.f3 e6 - Paul Cumbers is right, Nakamura-Vachier Lagrave indicates that this is good for White. I find it difficult to offer better advice for Black though, since 5...g6 6.e4 Bg7 7.Na3 doesn't give Black full compensation and >5...ab5 6.e4 Qa5 7.Bd2 b4 8.Na3 also favours White. And the gambit 5...e6 6.e4 c4 doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

5.f3 is strong.  Ambitious white should take it. I play 5.-ab, but this is somewhat better for white.

>5.e3 - Ki. Georgiev-Rogers, Biel Interzonal 1993

5.e3 scores 61%
5.-ab is theoretically probably unclear, but I don't like these positions. I play 5.-g6 for practical reasons (+=). both have scored equally.


>10.Rb1 - J.Gustafsson-S.Kasparov, Deizisau 2002 

65% and surely +=, but there is some play at my level, so I'm not too afraid of these lines in practise

>12.Re1 - Again due to the wide range of options at Black's disposal, I'm curious to know where you think Black can equalise.>

61%, this is indeed +=, I have played 12.-Qb6

Above general opinions, we can also go to details.
« Last Edit: 03/22/11 at 21:14:26 by Lauri Torni »  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Lauri Torni
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #13 - 03/22/11 at 13:42:40
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TN wrote on 03/21/11 at 23:16:12:
Lauri Torni wrote on 03/21/11 at 14:44:50:
Markovich wrote on 03/21/11 at 12:39:01:
The OP didn't say he played just one defense to 1.d4.


Indeed. I play also NI, QI and KI. My main point was: how do other benko-players feel playing it nowadays? Benko is not "benko" anymore the way it used to be. It is  a normal opening, where black has to be prepared to play in many different ways. Do you think it really is better practical choice, than eg. KI or GI?

P.S. I know the theory quite well, and don't agree with many of these comments (do you play benko?):

4.Qc2 is dull but not challenging, 4.a4 is just bad if Black is well prepared, 4.Nf3 g6 is equal, 5.b6 even gives Black a choice between a slow-paced game with 5...Qb6 or a medium/fast-paced game with 5...e6, 5.f3 was relegated to the dustbin with 5...e6 a decade ago, 5.e3 is at least as dangerous for White as for Black, 10.Rb1 is not as deadly as once thought, and 12.Re1 is only marginally better for White.


Thanks for that clarification. Trust me, it's difficult to offer specific advice without knowing your playing strength and your general opening repertoire. 

I have played the Benko a fair bit, and only very recently dropped it from my Black repertoire. 

To get the discussion rolling, here are the games on which I base the above assessments:

4.Qc2 - Ding-Nepomniachtchi, CHN-RUS Summit rapid 2009

4.a4 - Ward-Kinsman, Wrexham 1998

4.Nf3 g6 - given that White has a wide range of possibilities on move 5, I'm interested to know which line you think gives White an edge. 

5.b6 e6 - Gleizerov-Tregubov, Krasnoyarsk 2003

5.f3 e6 - Paul Cumbers is right, Nakamura-Vachier Lagrave indicates that this is good for White. I find it difficult to offer better advice for Black though, since 5...g6 6.e4 Bg7 7.Na3 doesn't give Black full compensation and 5...ab5 6.e4 Qa5 7.Bd2 b4 8.Na3 also favours White. And the gambit 5...e6 6.e4 c4 doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

5.e3 - Ki. Georgiev-Rogers, Biel Interzonal 1993

10.Rb1 - J.Gustafsson-S.Kasparov, Deizisau 2002

12.Re1 - Again due to the wide range of options at Black's disposal, I'm curious to know where you think Black can equalise.


Could you add the key moves? I had problems finding many games mentioned above.
« Last Edit: 03/22/11 at 14:46:58 by Lauri Torni »  

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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #12 - 03/22/11 at 13:16:45
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MNb wrote on 03/21/11 at 23:32:12:
That reminds me that I promised you guys to keep informed about my ongoing game.

MNb - Sobry,S [A57]
em ICCF WS/H/267, 2011

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 b5 4.cxb5 a6 5.f3 e6 6.e4 exd5 7.e5 Qe7 8.Qe2 Ng8 9.Nc3 Bb7 10.Nh3 c4 11.Nf4 Qc5 12.Nfxd5 Bxd5 13.Be3 Qb4 14.a3 Qa5 15.Bd2 Be6 16.Nd5 Qd8 17.Qxc4 Ra7 18.Rc1 Bxd5 19.Qxd5 axb5 20.Bxb5 Ne7 21.Qe4 Qb6 22.a4 Qb7 23.Qc4 Nbc6 24.0-0 g6 25.Bg5

(we are at move 33)

This looks like having some theoretical relevance.

Thanks for this Smiley. Looking back at some analysis I did a year ago, I thought Black should sac back with 21...Nbc6 22.a4 Qb8 23.0-0 Rb7 24.Bc3 Rxb5 25.axb5 Qxb5 26.Rfd1 +=, but your opponent has tried a different approach. Will be interesting to see how it works out.
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #11 - 03/22/11 at 06:42:23
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gewgaw wrote on 03/21/11 at 18:24:39:
@ako
what´s your opinion about @TN´s lines? Can you give an somewhat deeper overview,please? I think about using benko as a weapon against weaker players.


I will drop something quite soon.
  

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MNb
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Re: benko is boring nowadays
Reply #10 - 03/21/11 at 23:32:12
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That reminds me that I promised you guys to keep informed about my ongoing game.

MNb - Sobry,S [A57]
em ICCF WS/H/267, 2011

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 b5 4.cxb5 a6 5.f3 e6 6.e4 exd5 7.e5 Qe7 8.Qe2 Ng8 9.Nc3 Bb7 10.Nh3 c4 11.Nf4 Qc5 12.Nfxd5 Bxd5 13.Be3 Qb4 14.a3 Qa5 15.Bd2 Be6 16.Nd5 Qd8 17.Qxc4 Ra7 18.Rc1 Bxd5 19.Qxd5 axb5 20.Bxb5 Ne7 21.Qe4 Qb6 22.a4 Qb7 23.Qc4 Nbc6 24.0-0 g6 25.Bg5

(we are at move 33)

This looks like having some theoretical relevance.
At the other hand I am not sure about White's chances after 5...axb5. I would have followed TN's line indeed, but things are a bit complicated.
All in all 4.cxb5 and 5.f3 looks perfect for aggressive natures like me.  Smiley
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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