Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Soller Gambit offers good chances ?? (Read 42704 times)
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 904
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #38 - 04/07/11 at 09:41:55
Post Tools
7.Nc3 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.0-0 (or 7.0-0 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3) 9...Na5 and now:

A) 10.Be6 Be7 (10...c6 11.Bxd7+ Qxd7 12.c4 +/-) 11.f4 Bxg5 12.Qh5+ g6 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.Qxg5 with some attacking chances for White, though Black can probably hold.

B) 10.Ne6 (probably best) 10...Qc8 11.Nxf8 Rxf8 (11...Nxc4 12.Nxd7 Qxd7 13.Qd5 +/-) 12.Be2 b6 13.Bxh6 gxh6 14.f4 with a considerable advantage for White.

Or 9...Be7 10.f4 exf4 (10...Bg4 11.Qd5 +/-) 11.Bxf4 Bxg5 12.Qh5+ g6 13.Qxg5 Ng4 (exchanging queens allows White a powerful, probably decisive, attack) 14.Qd5 Nge5 15.Be2 and Black again faces a tough defence.

These lines put me in mind of an Italian Game with Black having a weakened kingside (consistent with the transposition from a poor line of the Rousseau Gambit mentioned earlier).  If White was forced to take on f6 then I might consider the Soller Gambit attractive enough for a try in casual games but I wouldn't want to defend these 4.e4 positions as black.

4...d6 (instead of 4...fxe5) might be Black's best practical try, leaving White with nothing better than 5.exf6 Nxf6, but Black might prefer to have the pawn on d5 and restrict White's e-pawn to e3 (as often happens after the immediate 4.exf6)- Black will struggle for compensation in this more restrained version.  I looked at 4...fxe5 5.Bc4 Bc5, when Black gets a half-decent game after 6.Ng5 Qf6 7.0-0 Nge7, but then 6.Bxg8! (intending 6...Rxg8 7.Qd5) gives White a decisive advantage.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #37 - 04/06/11 at 20:45:54
Post Tools
As a summary, we currently have the two variations:

i) 7.Nc3 Nd4 and now:
   a) 8.O-O c6 9.Ne2! Nxe2+ 10.Qxe2 +-
   b) 8.Be3?! Be7? 9.Qh5+ Kf8 10.O-O Bf6 11.f4! +-

ii) 7.O-O Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3 Nd4? 10.f4 +-

Any lines henceforth should either improve or deviate somewhere within these - no more weak moves like 8.f4 please! (Even if this does still give white an edge, it doesn't refute the gambit completely - I reckon the other lines do).
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #36 - 04/06/11 at 20:42:05
Post Tools
I'd also like to know why Lev so rudely ignored my line after 8.Be3 entirely - since that was the main line we were discussing for white, why have we suddenly changed to two other lines?

f4 is just premature, either on move 8 or move 9, without provocation. So 8.f4? is just wrong (though still better for white) and 8.O-O c6 should simply be met by 9.Ne2 - a positional solution to prove black's positional shambles - where 9...Nxe2+ 10.Qe2 leaves black struggling for a good move! 10...Be7? 11.Qh5+ wins, 10...Qf6 11.f4! is very strong, and 10...Bg4 11.f3 Be7!? 12.h4! Bd7 13.a4! is also positionally dominating for white - black can neither play the freeing ...b5, nor comfortably contemplate castling long when white's attack will be so quick.

When I defended weak gambits in the past, I usually had the guts or decency to accept when I'd be busted. I hope that eventually Lev and Motorhead will be able to do the same - this opening is not playable against a prepared opponent. Black is getting smashed positionally, he has no attack and no play, and no real prospects other than a long, grim battle to cling on.

7...Nd4 looks like a good move to you, Lev, because you always ignore any analysis or moves which might be favourable for your opponent. 7...Nd4 looks like a losing move to me.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 645
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #35 - 04/06/11 at 18:19:04
Post Tools
I assume you adress 7.Nc3 Nd4? here.

Both your lines can be improved for White but I would like to know how you intend to meet 7.0-0 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3 since 9... Nd4? 10.f4 is surely +- already.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1392
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #34 - 04/06/11 at 16:52:35
Post Tools
Really? Let me see about that! After 7...Nd4 we have the following lines:

I) 8 f4 Bg4! 9 Qd3 c6 10 h3 Bh5 11 g4 Bg6 12 f5 Bf7 13 Nxf7 Qh4+ 14 Kd1 Nxf7 and Black hangs on.

II) 8 00 c6 9 f4 Qb6 10 Na4 Qb4 11 b3 Bg4! 12 Nf3 Nxf3 13 gxf3 Bh3! Black is okay here also.

So, 7...Nd4 looks like a good move to me!

  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 645
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #33 - 04/06/11 at 16:18:08
Post Tools
I have nothing to add to Craig´s convincing analysis and can only repeat that if you think Black can afford the time to play ... Nd4 than it's clear that my understanding of this position is very different from yours.  Wink

About 8.Qd5 Nd4? White can capture on b7 with a clear advantage since after 9.Qxb7 Nxc2? 10.Bb5+ Bd7 (or 10... Ke7 11.Nc3) 11.Ne6 is +-.

And after 8.Qd3 (intending Qg3 or sometimes Qb3) your "simple" 8... Na5? still fails to develop and puts the Knight on a bad square. White is clearly better with 9.Bd5 c6 10.Be6 threatening to trap the poor piece on a5 and underlining Blacks weaknesses on the white squares.

So there are several refutations of this.  Tongue
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #32 - 04/06/11 at 15:33:36
Post Tools
For starters, Motorhead, in your line to Fllg, 9...Nd4? is met incredibly strongly by 10.f4 and white is winning. White is ahead in development, he is the aggressor - a move like 9...Nd4 fails to develop a piece when black is already critically behind in development, it sets up no real threats other than cheap traps. In essence, it smells wrong. 10.f4! is a simple move to find, but an impossible one to meet satisfactorially.

7.Nc3 Nd4 also smells wrong for the same reason. Black has no reason to be setting up play of his own - dogmatic but true.

However, I'd like some of what the author of that Kaissiber article was obviously sniffing when he decided that 8.Be3? (I think this move is poor and either 8.Ne2 or 8.O-O are far more pointed) Be7? (8...c6 is much stronger surely?) 9.Qh5+ Kf8 10.O-O Bf6?? was okay for black.

7.Nc3 Nd4 8.Be3? Be7? 9.Qh5+ Kf8 10.O-O Bf6?? 11.f4! totally wins for white, pretty much outright, doesn't it?? White has threats just about everywhere with moves like Nd5, fxe5, Rxf6+ and Bxh6 (after preparation) in the air. It's not even worth looking deeper - this is 1-0. Take 5 minutes to look at the shambles of black's position after any move - a sensible sample line is 11...Qe8 12.Qh4 Nxc2?? 13.fxe5! Qxe5 (13...Nxe3?? 14.Rxf6+! wins) 14.Rxf6+!! Qxf6 15.Nd5! and 1-0

I agree this line is interesting, but only as a player who would be a 2800 if his opponents all played it as black. It might interest you, and I really do applaud the efforts to find a dangerous sideline against 1.d4 (an opening which I struggle against), but this is utter, utter tripe. Of the refuted kind. I'd suggest you look at 8.Be3 c6 as an improvement but note that white is still comfortably better there - and then grimace when you see that 8.O-O (offering a transposition to the first line), or 8.Ne2 (exchanging off a black piece that has moved twice whilst developing the queen), are even stronger for white.

This line is refuted I'm afraid.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
IP Logged
 
motörhead
Full Member
***
Offline


Here comes the bass, thunder
in the guts...

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/09/08
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #31 - 04/06/11 at 10:34:51
Post Tools
CraigEvans wrote on 04/05/11 at 16:13:27:
Sometimes it makes me wonder why I bother...

I suggested 7.Nc3 was more accurate than 7.O-O on the last page - this renders 7...Na5 as impossible due to 8.Ne6! with a huge advantage (8...Qe7 loses to 9.Nd5!, whilst in the analagous line with 7.O-O Na5 8.Ne6?! Qe7 may hold)

7.Nc3 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.a4 (Or 9.O-O transposing back) is just very good for white - 9...Be7 is met by 10.h4 and white is just +/-. Black has a cramped position, a misplaced knight, no prospects of castling soon, absolutely no play. Anyone who wishes to defend black's position is insane. He has a long, hard grovel to a draw which might not even be attainable. White has better development, better space, better prospects. What exactly are we debating here?  Grin


(1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 d6! 6.Ng5 Nh6)

On 7.Nc3
Black's best option is

7...Nd4!
according to Kaissiber 5/1998 and I agree with that. After Nb1-c3 a Black Knight can't be chased away with c2-c3.
The moves Bc8-g4 and Sc6-d4 and Bf8-e7 play a major role in Black's concept. If White is able to castle queenside Black should play the manoeuvre Bg4/f3/Bd7 only after the move Nc6-d4, which after all is important, because it covers e6 (I gave that in the post before, as I gave there the problem-Knight g5 too).

8.Be3 Be7
Interesting is 8...Bg4 9.f3 Be7! 10.Qd2 Bd7. Now White is somehow linked to his Ng5 and on the other side there is b7-b5 to come, challenging White's domination on the white squares...

9.Qh5+ Kf8 10.0-0 Bf6!
turns out to be only +/=
according to Kaissiber.

Quite an interesting variation. That's what we are debating here... Wink
  

A walk trough the ocean of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
motörhead
Full Member
***
Offline


Here comes the bass, thunder
in the guts...

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/09/08
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #30 - 04/06/11 at 10:09:47
Post Tools
Fllg wrote on 04/05/11 at 15:33:22:
I´m afraid I can´t agree with that either. After 7... Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3 the Knight on g5 isn´t in any danger since there is the nice square e6. Also after 9... Be7 10.f4 Black is in serious trouble since his King finds no shelter.
...
This line can also come up via 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 d6 6.Ng5 Nh6 etc. In my view this is just unplayable for Black.



Wellcome to the days of disagreement Grin

I can't agree with you too. You found the soft spot in Black's position: The vulnerable white squares e6, f7, g8 disabling him to castle safely (if at all).

But your conclusion comes a bit to short. In fact the Ng5 is a bit on quicksand. Yes, he has as a ressort e6.

The direct and easiest way would therefore be the straight
(1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 d6! 6.Ng5 Nh6)

7.Ne6
Snatching the pair of Bishops right away

7...Bxe6 8.Bxe6
now after

8...Qf6
Black has surely a way to go to equalize. But I wouldn't dare to play that. After all the centre is quite stable and offers some possibilities for the Knights...


Especially that last point too is what you missed in your judgement after
(1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 d6! 6.Ng5 Nh6)

7.0-0 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3
as you said, the white squares (esp. e6) in Black's camp are weak. I meant White's Ng5 to be vulnerable to an attack with Bf8-e7. So let's mix the statements: Black first has to cover e6 and only then attack the Ng5.
So to me

9...Nd4!
meets the point. That by no means is dangerous to White. He only has to look for his pieces and so his initiative vanishes. Ng5 is a bit unsave. Due to f2-f3 White can't play the annoying  Qh5+. On the other side Black threatens b7-b5 driving back the Bc4 which itself is a cornerstone in the reign over e6 and f7...

10.Be3
seems natural.

10...Be7
too. And now?

11.h4
(11.Qd2? Nxc2+ another idea of Nc6-d4; 11.Nh3 Bxh3 12.gxh3 b5)

11...b5
and I am inclined to call the position interesting and lively.

Fllg wrote on 04/05/11 at 15:33:22:
After 7... Bg4
[...]
In addition both 8.Qd5 or Qd3 leave White clearly for choice because of the weakened white squares.


I think you'r a bit superficial with that.
8.Qd5 "?" in my eyes due to 8...Nd4! (again this useful move). Now White in fact is clearly for coice: Where is his Queen going to? She's threatened by 8...c6.

8.Qd3. Yes, playable. But what are you heading for with that? What about the simple 8...Na5 ?

Beware: All that is done on a wooden board with human brain only Shocked
  

A walk trough the ocean of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1392
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #29 - 04/06/11 at 01:06:59
Post Tools
I sometimes play the following alternative:

1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 Qe7!?
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #28 - 04/05/11 at 16:13:27
Post Tools
Sometimes it makes me wonder why I bother...

I suggested 7.Nc3 was more accurate than 7.O-O on the last page - this renders 7...Na5 as impossible due to 8.Ne6! with a huge advantage (8...Qe7 loses to 9.Nd5!, whilst in the analagous line with 7.O-O Na5 8.Ne6?! Qe7 may hold)

7.Nc3 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.a4 (Or 9.O-O transposing back) is just very good for white - 9...Be7 is met by 10.h4 and white is just +/-. Black has a cramped position, a misplaced knight, no prospects of castling soon, absolutely no play. Anyone who wishes to defend black's position is insane. He has a long, hard grovel to a draw which might not even be attainable. White has better development, better space, better prospects. What exactly are we debating here?  Grin
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 645
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #27 - 04/05/11 at 15:33:22
Post Tools
I´m afraid I can´t agree with that either. After 7... Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3 the Knight on g5 isn´t in any danger since there is the nice square e6. Also after 9... Be7 10.f4 Black is in serious trouble since his King finds no shelter.

In addition both 8.Qd5 or Qd3 leave White clearly for choice because of the weakened white squares.

This line can also come up via 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 d6 6.Ng5 Nh6 etc. In my view this is just unplayable for Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1392
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #26 - 04/05/11 at 06:01:33
Post Tools
Motorhead is correct. That is indeed better.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
motörhead
Full Member
***
Offline


Here comes the bass, thunder
in the guts...

Posts: 226
Joined: 10/09/08
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #25 - 04/04/11 at 19:15:05
Post Tools
Gambit wrote on 04/04/11 at 17:01:00:
In the Soller, the move order is 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 fxe4 5 Bc4 d6 6 Ng5 Nh6 7 00 Na5 looks okay  for Black. 


Why riding both horses to the rims?

I would play the zwischenzug 7...Bg4 which after 8.f3 Bd7 blocks the diagonal d1-h5 and so puts the Ng5 in problems after Bf8-e7.
  

A walk trough the ocean of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 645
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #24 - 04/04/11 at 18:38:00
Post Tools
If you really think Black is okay here than it's clear that my understanding of this position is very different from yours.  Wink

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

With both Knights offside and a weakened King I would be very surprised if White doesn´t emerge with a clear advantage. Even after something simple like 8.Be2 Be7 9.Bb5+!? c6 10.Qh5+.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo