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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Soller Gambit offers good chances ?? (Read 42702 times)
Gambit
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #23 - 04/04/11 at 17:01:00
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Actually that is a typo. The moves are 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 b3 Ng6 5 Bb2 Bb4+ 6 Nbd2 Qe7, etc.

In the Soller, the move order is 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 fxe4 5 Bc4 d6 6 Ng5 Nh6 7 00 Na5 looks okay  for Black.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #22 - 04/04/11 at 12:14:38
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Gambit wrote on 04/02/11 at 18:29:59:
I would like to respond to a few points here concerning the Soller and related gambits.

First, after 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 fxe5  5 Bc4 [...] 5...d6 6 Ng5 00 7 00 g6 8 f4 ef4 9 Rxf4 Ne5 10 Ne6 Bxe6 11 Bxe6 Qe7 = ; 

So what am I missing here?


This must also be a strong contender for novelty of the year.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #21 - 04/04/11 at 10:23:46
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Gambit wrote on 04/03/11 at 14:13:55:
1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 b3 Bb4+ 5 Nbd2 Qe7 6 a3 Bxd2 7 Qxd2 00 with upcoming Re8- Nxe5-f6-N5f7.

Must be the novelty of the year, Lev. Though Black's 5th is no slouch either.
  

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Hadron
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #20 - 04/04/11 at 07:08:04
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Gambit wrote on 04/04/11 at 03:39:19:
William Williams, the inventor of the Williams Gambit, 1 f4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Qe2 ? I have his book on the Williams Gambit in English.

He sent me a signed copy. He also sent quite a bit of supplimentary analysis as well

Gambit wrote on 04/04/11 at 03:39:19:
You can ask me to share my games with the 4 b3 line.

As I said I used to play the 3...Nge7 quite a bit but not as much now.

Gambit wrote on 04/04/11 at 03:39:19:
Yes, I know New Zealand is quite small. Heard that for some reason, their relations with Australia are not very good. Any idea why?

It is like asking why americans and canadians get on so well? God knows
Hadron.
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #19 - 04/04/11 at 03:39:19
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William Williams, the inventor of the Williams Gambit, 1 f4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Qe2 ? I have his book on the Williams Gambit in English.

You can ask me to share my games with the 4 b3 line.
Yes, I know New Zealand is quite small. Heard that for some reason, their relations with Australia are not very good. Any idea why?
  
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Hadron
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #18 - 04/04/11 at 01:39:16
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Gambit wrote on 04/03/11 at 14:13:55:
Nice... Care to share the game score with us, Hadron?
Actually, 4 b3 was one of the two lines I analyzed originally in March 1993, at the gambit's inception.
This is the so-called Larsen Variation, named thus because of its similarity to 1 b3, the Larsen Opening.
You want to know how to play against it?

1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 b3 Bb4+ 5 Nbd2 Qe7 6 a3 Bxd2 7 Qxd2 00 with upcoming Re8- Nxe5-f6-N5f7.


I will dig out, it is not of the best quality in the world. You have to remember New Zealand is only a smallish country and to get in books and specialist magazines is not cheap and what you can get off the internet only goes so far.  I think all I have on 3...Nge7 is an old photocopy in german given to me by William Williams of the US
Cheers
Hadron  Shocked
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #17 - 04/03/11 at 14:13:55
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Nice... Care to share the game score with us, Hadron?
Actually, 4 b3 was one of the two lines I analyzed originally in March 1993, at the gambit's inception.
This is the so-called Larsen Variation, named thus because of its similarity to 1 b3, the Larsen Opening.
You want to know how to play against it?

1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 b3 Bb4+ 5 Nbd2 Qe7 6 a3 Bxd2 7 Qxd2 00 with upcoming Re8- Nxe5-f6-N5f7.

  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #16 - 04/03/11 at 10:33:52
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I have that article, I think it was in CHESS in August 2000.  He mentions 8.Nd5 Ba5 9.Rb5 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 Kd8 11.Qg5+ (which leads only to an unclear position) and 11.e4 h6 "unclear" (the analysis stemmed originally from Grob, who gave the inaccurate continuation 12.h4 b6 13.Bc4 Qf8- White is actually clearly better here after 12.Bc4!, but Black can improve with 11...a6).  That article inspired me to take up the 3...Qe7 line of the Englund Gambit, as it actually looked quite viable theoreticallly before the real strength of 8.Nd5! became known.  Interestingly none of my games in the line got any further than 6...Bb4, when one opponent tried 7.Nd5?!- right idea at wrong time- as after 7...Bxd2+ White has a choice between 8.Nxd2 Nb4 and 8.Kxd2 Kd8, both pretty unclear/equal.

Stefan Bucker's latest article is here:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss48.pdf

I don't find Avrukh's 8.Nd5 Ba5 9.Rb5 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 Kd8 11.Ng5 Nh6 12.f4!? idea (mentioned in Wikipedia) too convincing, and it leads to similar play to the 11.e4 a6 covered in the article.  Instead I favour 9.e4 for White and think that 9...Nge7 10.Rb5 is even more convincing that 10.Bc4 (after 10.Rb5 Black's best is probably the pawn sac 10...Bxd2+ 11.Qxd2 0-0 12.Nxc7 Rb8, when Black will probably regain a pawn on a2 or e5, but White is still substantially better).

3...Nge7 4.b3!? seems quite a common response but objectively I don't think it challenges the viability of the system for Black.  Stefan Bucker mentions it in Kaissiber 5, recommending 4...Ng6 5.Bb2 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.a3 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 Ngxe5.
  
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Hadron
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #15 - 04/03/11 at 02:57:15
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SWJediknight wrote on 04/02/11 at 14:58:33:
I think 3...Nge7 is indeed looking Black's best bet at the moment. 

You are quite right, Stadelman's line is best. Althought, I played it against a former female New Zealand Olympiad rep once where she whipped out 4.b3!? which I had not seen before. I managed to win the game but it required an ounce of luck.
SWJediknight wrote on 04/02/11 at 14:58:33:
As Stefan Bucker noted in his online articles, 3...Qe7 is playable as long as your opponent doesn't know about the line 4.Bf4 Qb4+ 5.Bd2 Qxb2 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Rb1 Qa3 8.Nd5!, but if White finds that line then Black is in for some turbulence (where if 8...Ba5, then 9.e4 is probably even stronger than the immediate 9.Rb5, and gives White a clear advantage, while 8...Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 Qxa2 10.Rd1 Kd8 11.Ng5! is even]worse for Black in my opinion). 

Now, I did not know that. I have an old article by Andrew Martin who only mentions 11.Qg5+ and 11.e4 so where did you say you got your info from again?
Hadron
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I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #14 - 04/02/11 at 18:29:59
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I would like to respond to a few points here concerning the Soller and related gambits.

First, after 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 fxe5  5 Bc4 is horrible for Black. I just checked the chesslive.de database for this line, and White wins the vast absolute majority of the games in this line! However, it must be mentioned that none of the Black players were rated 2000 or higher.  Computer analysis might improve the position for Black. To throw out a few lines:

5...d6 6 Ng5 Nh6 7 Nxh7 Bg4! = ; 5...d6 6 Ng5 00 7 00 g6 8 f4 ef4 9 Rxf4 Ne5 10 Ne6 Bxe6 11 Bxe6 Qe7 = ; 

So what am I missing here?

Second, the Englund Gambit, 3...Qe7. I agree with the evaluation posted here.

Third, the Zilbermints Gambit, 3...Nge7. I don't know why HTH keeps calling it the Stadelman even though current evidence shows no known games of Stadelman's with 3...Nge7. Even though Samuel Leigh Stadelman analysed some lines in Philadelphia Inquirer back in the 1920s or the 1930s (not sure which!) , I have no games of his with 3...Nge7. All known  Stadelman's games started out with 1 e4, not 1 d4.
I am trying to locate more data about Samuel Leigh Stadelman right now. So far, I know more than when Stefan Buecker informed me about him in 1996.

Samuel Leigh Stadelman was born 19 November 1881. Apparently a life-long native of Pennsylvania.
First known chess tournament, 1891. Played in Anglo-American cable matches for the American team, early 1900s. Won the chess championship of Franklin Chess Club in 1907 and 1908. Served in World War I, 1917-1918. Might have served in the reserves in World War II, possibly posted to Canada, circa 1942.
During WW2, many  men aged 18-65 were called into active or reserve army service. Died fl. 1942. Buried in Ardmore, Pennsylvania.

I should point out that in all the time I have been researching Stadelman's life, I never came across any of his games with 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7.
The most that could be said is that he analysed some lines. However, there is a big difference between analysing some lines and practical play!

Finally, the Zilbermints Gambit is Black's best line in the 1 d4 e5 complex.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #13 - 04/02/11 at 14:58:33
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I think 3...Nge7 is indeed looking Black's best bet at the moment.  I think White can still get an advantage between += and +/- against 4.Nc3 h6 (a better practical try than 4...Ng6 5.Bg5!), but it's not trivial for White to prove this OTB.  I have a suspicion that White might be able to get a similar advantage with 4.Bf4 with very accurate play, but Black's practical chances are excellent in Zilbermints's pet line 4...Ng6 5.Bg3 (5.e3 d6 gives enough compensation for +=) 5...Qe7 6.Nc3 Qb4.

As Stefan Bucker noted in his online articles, 3...Qe7 is playable as long as your opponent doesn't know about the line 4.Bf4 Qb4+ 5.Bd2 Qxb2 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Rb1 Qa3 8.Nd5!, but if White finds that line then Black is in for some turbulence (where if 8...Ba5, then 9.e4 is probably even stronger than the immediate 9.Rb5, and gives White a clear advantage, while 8...Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 Qxa2 10.Rd1 Kd8 11.Ng5! is even worse for Black in my opinion).  Perhaps Black's best practical chance is the escape-hatch 5...Qe7 intending 6.Bc3 f6, but it isn't altogether convincing.  Other slightly-advantageous tries for White (8.Rb3, 4.Nc3, 4.Qd5) are not enough to seriously test the viabililty of 3...Qe7 in OTB play.  As not many players know about the strength of the Nd5 line, the 3...Qe7 line will probably still score well OTB, but it all depends on whether you're happy to take that risk.

I wouldn't want to take Black in the line 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4, even though Black can just about hold with best play.  For the same reason, after 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 f6, Craig Evans's suggestion 3.e4 Nc6 4.Nf3 (rather than 4.Bc4, 4.exf6 or 3.exf6), transposing to the same position, is probably best in a practical sense.

I still take a strong interest in the Englund, but I've largely shifted to using the Albin (1...d5 intending to meet c2-c4 with ...e7-e5) as my main anti-1.d4 weapon these days.
  
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Hadron
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #12 - 04/02/11 at 11:14:05
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CraigEvans wrote on 04/02/11 at 09:09:58:
Black would be best advised to stay away from the Soller, and investigate 3...Nge7 or otherwise something other than 1...e5 completely.

I agree with Craig, the Soller is not the best. I think the Stadelman gambit is about the only thing that makes 1.d4 e5 any where near playable. I used to play it quite a lot over the board until I took the Polish up.
HTH
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #11 - 04/02/11 at 09:09:58
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Why is 4.Bc4 stronger than 4.Nf3?

The line 4.Nf3 fxe5 5.Bc4 looks pretty awful to my eyes - and I used to play it as black so I should know! I seem to remember the line 5...d6 6.Ng5 Nh6 7.Nc3 being problematic - white argues that his position is just superior and develops normally - he controls d5, has a lead in development, the Bc4 strongly rakes down the a2-g8 diagonal. I'm guessing that someone playing the Soller is looking for an active game with attacking chances. What he has on his hands here is a grovel, pure and simple. With absolute best play he might only be +=, but it looks a lot closer to +/- to me. Black would be best advised to stay away from the Soller, and investigate 3...Nge7 or otherwise something other than 1...e5 completely.
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #10 - 03/29/11 at 05:48:40
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I played a number of Soller Gambits in OTB tournaments. Will post them here later.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #9 - 03/28/11 at 22:46:33
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Actually you're right (I have the book in front of me confirming what you say), I vaguely remember reading about that line (given as recommended by Soller himself) and it must have slipped my mind.  There are various alternatives for both sides but overall "+=" seems fair.

Thus maybe White doesn't have anything better than to transpose back to the Soller Gambit proper with 4.Nf3 or 4.exf6 Nxf6 5.Nf3.
  
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