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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Soller Gambit offers good chances ?? (Read 39360 times)
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #53 - 04/12/11 at 22:29:28
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CraigEvans wrote on 04/12/11 at 10:42:22:
Fear not, Motorhead. I am here, and I will indeed proceed to show that, in black's rotten position, the rotten-looking 5...Qe7 isn't a paradoxical saving grace.
So, after 1.d4 e5 2.de Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4! fe (I wonder if black might be better served leaving the pawn on e5 and developing around it... ) 5.Bc4 Qe7?!, 6.Nc3 looks the logical move, threatening 6.Nd5 and therefore preventing the 6...Nd8 manoeuvre, so let's look at this first.

First: I don’t think there is a way leaving the pawn on e5 and developing around because that would leave a pawn on f6 too - hindering developing around.
Second: why is 5...Qe7 "?!" ? When punctuating like this, there should be a better move available, or? But the major attempts (5...Nf6, 5...d6) are refuted. So here (or earlier)  is the point to look for alternatives.
I don't think it is paradoxial but the last resort as f7 is too weak and you have to cover it perhaps with Nc6-d8. So to me it is "!?" - just in comparison with the other “?!”- to “?”-moves.
Third: aggreed, 6.Nc3 is logical.

CraigEvans wrote on 04/12/11 at 10:42:22:
6.Nc3 Nf6 7.O-O does look strongest (the black queen obviously intends to move from e7, so why pin a knight to a moving target?), and we'll eliminate black's moves in order:
i) 7...Qc5? [...]
ii) 7...Qb4? [...]
iii) 7...Na5 [...]

What about
iv) 7...Nd8

CraigEvans wrote on 04/12/11 at 10:42:22:
So let us look at some alternatives. After 6.Ng5 you suggest 6...Qb4+ 7.Nd2 Nd8, but the problem here is that maybe 8.Nxh7 comes a move too early for black. 8...Rxh7 9.Bxg8 Rh8 10.Bb3 Qb6 11.Nc4 looks like a logical series of moves [...]

Well, I agree, I had a typo in it. 7...Nh6 is the way and NOT 7...Nd8. That's why I have the impossible 9...Nhf7 in my (faulty, I'm deeply sorry) line. I don't know why I went wrong with that  (that's what happens when the engine is human). The idea of Ng5xh7 is obvious, I gave it myself erlier. So f7 has to be protected and h7 too - as 7...Nh6 does. Only later there may come Nc6-d8.

CraigEvans wrote on 04/12/11 at 10:42:22:
So if 6...Qb4+ doesn't work, 6...Qe7 becomes less of a pointed move. Maybe 6...Nd8 is a refinement.

No, that is the exact point where I gave 7.Nxh7.

CraigEvans wrote on 04/12/11 at 10:42:22:
I'm afraid it looks like, paradoxically, declining the Soller is a total refutation of it. The irony is that I think black's compensation in the Soller accepted is totally insufficient also, but the fact that white can keep a clear advantage if not win outright whilst denying black all his fun and traps... that doesn't speak well for it.

I think we are close to the refutation, but it’s not done yet.
The "totally insufficient compensation in the Soller accepted" is on another board. Im not sure about it yet...
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #52 - 04/12/11 at 10:42:22
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Fear not, Motorhead. I am here, and I will indeed proceed to show that, in black's rotten position, the rotten-looking 5...Qe7 isn't a paradoxical saving grace.

So, after 1.d4 e5 2.de Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4! fe (I wonder if black might be better served leaving the pawn on e5 and developing around it... ) 5.Bc4 Qe7?!, 6.Nc3 looks the logical move, threatening 6.Nd5 and therefore preventing the 6...Nd8 manoeuvre, so let's look at this first.

6.Nc3 Nf6 7.O-O does look strongest (the black queen obviously intends to move from e7, so why pin a knight to a moving target?), and we'll eliminate black's moves in order:

i) 7...Qc5? 8.Qe2! and black already has no satisfactory moves to meet the threats of Bd4 and Nb5 - e.g. 8...Be7 removes the best escape square from the queen, and after 9.Be3 black is forced to jettison a pawn with 9...Nd4 (Try 9...Qa5 10.a3 for yourself if you don't believe me!). 10.Bxd4 exd4 11.Nb5 and with ideas of b4 in the air, white will capture on d4 when he is a pawn up with better development, better attacking chances and generally just a huge advantage. +-

ii) 7...Qb4? is even worse, as white will gain tempi with a3 whilst playing similar lines to above - he is already castled to there is no point to the move.

iii) 7...Na5 is a tougher nut to crack, and indeed probably doesn't lose outright. But white just plays simply and proves how bad black's position fundamentally is, I think: 8.Bd3 c6 9.Qe2!? b5?! (Trying for activity and space - maybe 9...b6 is more circumspect but I don't believe black is holding there long-term) 10.Rd1! Nb7 11.Be3 Nc5 (Black's point, but it meets with a sticky end) 12.Bxb5!! cxb5 13.Nxb5 and black's position seems to be collapsing, with threats of Nd6+, Nxe5 (in some lines) and Nc7+ (maybe after Qc4 first).

So maybe black instead goes with the safer 9...b6. Now he faces the same positional problems after 10.Rd1 Nb7 11.a4! - it is not clear where any of black's pieces are going to go, white's bishop will get back to c4 with interest, and black is positionally bankrupt.

Maybe instead black leaves the knight on a5 to prevent such problems, so then we have 9...b6 10.Rd1 g6!? (The best of a bad bunch) 11.a3!? Bg7 12.b4 Nb7 13.Bc4. This is not so easy to assess - black can make a game of it. However, I would opine that after 13...b5 14.Bb3 a5 15.Bb2 d6 16.Qe3!? Bg4 17.h3 Bxf3 18.Qxf3 that white has the more harmonious position, and black's king will not feel safe whichever direction it goes in. Nonetheless, this is not the utter refutation I was hoping for - maybe someone else can improve? I am away from my home at the moment so this is sadly without any help from my beloved Rybka - maybe that will be able to put some final nails in the Soller's coffin.

So let us look at some alternatives. After 6.Ng5 you suggest 6...Qb4+ 7.Nd2 Nd8, but the problem here is that maybe 8.Nxh7 comes a move too early for black. 8...Rxh7 9.Bxg8 Rh8 10.Bb3 Qb6 11.Nc4 looks like a logical series of moves, where I see nothing better for black than to go in for 11...Qg6 12.Nxe5! Qxe4+ 13.Qe2 Qxg2 14.Nf3+! Ne6 15.Rg1 Qh3 16.Be3. Can black survive? Who knows... but I'd rather not need to try. No development to speak of, rook already on a strong open file, with the other coming straight to the d-file. How does black untangle? I am still not sure he can.

So if 6...Qb4+ doesn't work, 6...Qe7 becomes less of a pointed move. Maybe 6...Nd8 is a refinement. But then doesn't 7.Nxh7 immediately do a job? 7...Rxh7 8.Bxg8 Rh8 9.Bb3 and again white is a pawn up, but black has few of the advantages he seeks in the Soller accepted - he instead has a misplaced queen, a defecit in development, and no chance of castling kingside to get the rook onto the f-file. He instead has an open h-file, but white isn't that silly, he won't go that way. Black needs to complete his development, which includes moving the Nd8 for the third time while he lost a pawn. Black's pawn on e5 actually hampers his play in the centre, too. I would say that white is close to winning. Black will at best have a few shots which shouldn't work. In reality he will be trying to grovel a pawn-down endgame. This can't be worth doing.

I'm afraid it looks like, paradoxically, declining the Soller is a total refutation of it. The irony is that I think black's compensation in the Soller accepted is totally insufficient also, but the fact that white can keep a clear advantage if not win outright whilst denying black all his fun and traps... that doesn't speak well for it.

  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #51 - 04/11/11 at 19:33:10
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Jupp53 wrote on 04/10/11 at 21:42:12:
Simply 6.0-0 and if Nf6 7.Nc3 gives white aggreable play with better development imo. Why should black play something difficult like this? Huh


I think you just miss the point. The question of the thread deals with the playability of the Soller - don't take playabilitiy for correctness. The premisis is that we give the Soller a try. Even if it is a bit unsound but with some possibilities too (e.g. in many variations of the Soller accepted).

But the variation in discussion is a Soller declined:
1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4! and now
on 4... fxe5 5.Bc4!
All major Black attemps to play against this setup have been refuted.
If 5...Qe7 fails too then the whole Soller is crossing jordan. That's why we deal here with "something difficult like this". 
Your 6.0-0 Nf6 7.Nc3 are three half moves and the remark "gives white aggreable play with better development" which is correct, but not really an analysis but only a statement.

What about 6...Nd8, not developing, in contrary moving backwards, but too preparing c7-c6 to get some control in the centre? You may call this rubbish. Okay. But how do you proceed to convert your better development in something concrete? Right now, at work, I don't have a board at hand. So the following is blindfold - beware of flaws: 7.Bxg8 Rxg8 8.Qd5 Nf7 9.Ng5(9.Bg5 Qd6) 9...c6 10.Qb3 h6 11.Nxf7 Qxf7 12.Qxf7+ Kxf7 13.f4 Bc5+ 14.Kh1 exf4 15.Rxf4+ Kg6

Even if it is difficult: I'm interested if 5...Qe7 works as a resort or if it too can be refuted - which would all the same be the refutation of the Soller...
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #50 - 04/10/11 at 21:42:12
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motörhead wrote on 04/10/11 at 21:16:08:
The most annoying variation seems to be:
1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4!and now
on 4... fxe5 5.Bc4! hitting the weak King's side

I suggested
"5...Qe7!?
or
5...Qf6
all other moves fail, as we saw... "

After a closer look 5...Qf6 too droped of the list.

So to me
5...Qe7!?is the only possibility to stay on the road. And may be it holds. Cause now Black has the important additional defence Nc6-d8 at hand.

After 6.Ng5 Black has 6...Qb4+! disturbing White's development even on the costs of the own development (Not 6...Nd8? 7.Nxh7; 6...Nh6 7.Nc3 with Nd5 in mind) . White is forced to play 7.Nd2 and there the Knight isn't well placed in view to square d5. After 7...Nd8 8.a3 (8.0-0 Qe7; 8.c3 Qe7) 8...Qe7 9.Ndf3 Nhf7 the run-around-Queen has done a useful job. Black may be able to untangle... I know, that isn't the comfort-zone yet. But compared with the ugly alternatives...

I admit, I havn't had a deeper look at
6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Bg5
(7.Ng5 Nd8)
but there ar 7...Qb4 and 7...Qc5 and 7...Na5 to be looked at.

What do you think? Were btw. are Craig Evans and Fllg? Will they destroy 5...Qe7!? too?


Simply 6.0-0 and if Nf6 7.Nc3 gives white aggreable play with better development imo. Why should black play something difficult like this? Huh
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #49 - 04/10/11 at 21:16:08
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Gambit wrote on 04/10/11 at 02:55:37:
All of which demonstrates your lack of knowledge about the Kopiecki Attack! It took me 3 months of non-stop analyses, back in 1994, to memorize all the variations.
Your idea of 'catching is King in the center with Nd5' was what I originally thought, back in 1994. Deeper analyses indicated this not to be the case!

1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 Bf4 Ng6 5 Bg3 Qe7
6 Nc3 Qb4! 7 Qd2 Qxb2 8 Rb1 Qa3 9 Nd5 Qxa3!

just for starters...



Sorry Lev and SWJediknight and kylemeister,
I think we should stay tuned to the topic of this thread which is the Soller and not the Zilbermints.
All the more as there seems to be an own thread on the Zilbermints yet.
So I please you to return to the Soller.

The most annoying variation seems to be:
1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4!and now
on 4... fxe5 5.Bc4! hitting the weak King's side

I suggested
"5...Qe7!?
or
5...Qf6
all other moves fail, as we saw... "

After a closer look 5...Qf6 too droped of the list.

So to me
5...Qe7!?is the only possibility to stay on the road. And may be it holds. Cause now Black has the important additional defence Nc6-d8 at hand.

After 6.Ng5 Black has 6...Qb4+! disturbing White's development even on the costs of the own development (Not 6...Nd8? 7.Nxh7; 6...Nh6 7.Nc3 with Nd5 in mind) . White is forced to play 7.Nd2 and there the Knight isn't well placed in view to square d5. After 7...Nd8 8.a3 (8.0-0 Qe7; 8.c3 Qe7) 8...Qe7 9.Ndf3 Nhf7 the run-around-Queen has done a useful job. Black may be able to untangle... I know, that isn't the comfort-zone yet. But compared with the ugly alternatives...

I admit, I havn't had a deeper look at
6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Bg5
(7.Ng5 Nd8)
but there ar 7...Qb4 and 7...Qc5 and 7...Na5 to be looked at.

What do you think? Were btw. are Craig Evans and Fllg? Will they destroy 5...Qe7!? too?

  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #48 - 04/10/11 at 02:55:37
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All of which demonstrates your lack of knowledge about the Kopiecki Attack! It took me 3 months of non-stop analyses, back in 1994, to memorize all the variations.
Your idea of 'catching is King in the center with Nd5' was what I originally thought, back in 1994. Deeper analyses indicated this not to be the case!

1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 Bf4 Ng6 5 Bg3 Qe7
6 Nc3 Qb4! 7 Qd2 Qxb2 8 Rb1 Qa3 9 Nd5 Qxa3!

just for starters...
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #47 - 04/09/11 at 20:49:54
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I'd be surprised if White is only slightly better there.  Holding back with e4 also looks like a strong possibility; Black's position is both tactically and positionally shaky ...

(The outlines of the position with e4 reminded me somewhat of a favorable-for-White line in the Torre/Trompovsky -- 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 e6 3. e4 h6 4. Bxf6 Qxf6 5. Nf3 d6 6. Nc3 Nd7 7. Qd2 c6 8. O-O-O e5 9. dxe5 Nxe5; incidentally I notice that Bibs has been White there.)
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #46 - 04/09/11 at 19:13:44
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I don't see how Black fights for an advantage either (and I think 7.Qd2 also gives White some advantage with best play, as White can simply catch the king in the centre with Nd5 and develop normally, although 7.Rb1 does not).  However, against 7.Qc1, the latest word in the most recent "other" thread on 3...Nge7 was 7...Qc5 (Zilbermints) 8.e4 Ngxe5 9.Nxe5 Nxe5 10.Qd2 (so far analysis by TN, who claimed a clear advantage for White) 10...c6! (my suggestion, stopping Nd5 and envisaging ...b5-b4), +=.  For example, 11.Be2 b5 12.a3 a5.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #45 - 04/08/11 at 19:34:04
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Gambit wrote on 04/08/11 at 18:56:27:
II) The Klein Defence, 4 Bf4, has been very heavily analyzed. There are two ways to fight for Black advantage:

A. 4...Ng6 5 Bg3 Qe7 6 Nc3 Qb4! the Kopiecki Attack. Now if 7 Qd2, then 7...Qxb2! 8 Rb1 Qa3
gives Black the better game, since the Bg3 is out of the game. On 7 Rb1 Qa5 8 a3 there is 8...Bxa3! 9 Ra1 Bxb2+! 10 Rxa5 Bc3+ 11 Nd2 Nxa5 -+


I wonder how Black "fights for the advantage" after 7. Qc1 (7...Qa5 8. a3), which it seems you don't like to mention. 
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #44 - 04/08/11 at 18:56:27
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Your analysis is faulty, motorhead. Here is why.

I) 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 Nc3 h6! was analyzed by me back in 1994. Stops all the Bg5 crapola that is possible after 4...Ng6 5 Bg5 etc.

II) The Klein Defence, 4 Bf4, has been very heavily analyzed. There are two ways to fight for Black advantage:

A. 4...Ng6 5 Bg3 Qe7 6 Nc3 Qb4! the Kopiecki Attack. Now if 7 Qd2, then 7...Qxb2! 8 Rb1 Qa3
gives Black the better game, since the Bg3 is out of the game. On 7 Rb1 Qa5 8 a3 there is 8...Bxa3! 9 Ra1 Bxb2+! 10 Rxa5 Bc3+ 11 Nd2 Nxa5 -+

B. 4...Bc5, the Brea Attack. I'm not sure how good it is, but from what its inventor showed me, there are some nice tactical points here. Of course, the immediate 5 Qd5 b6! sets up pressure along the a8/h1 diagonal. Black then angles for Qe7 - 000 with pressure on e5. Playable.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #43 - 04/08/11 at 18:55:37
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Yeesh, that particular Sägestellung looks utterly horrific for Black.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #42 - 04/08/11 at 18:14:20
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Gambit wrote on 04/06/11 at 01:06:59:
I sometimes play the following alternative:

1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 Qe7!?


That is one of the very fiew ways to blow some low live in the Soller with 4.e4.

5.Nc3 Nxe5 6. Nd5 is annoying. But Black has 6...Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qd8 8.Bf4 d6.
Now you cant't even say that Black is down in development, as there is no Black development at all. But at least Black is stable and he has, what Nimzowich once called "Sägestellung" (= d6 / f6 vs. e4).  I feel that Black should refrain from c7-c6 for the time being as this weakens d6.

9.Bc4 Ne7 10.0-0-0 Ng6 is a normal continuation. Black bolsters controll over e5.

Black isn't in good shape right now. But play is slow. Yes, he can't even castle, but the King is able to leave the danger zone in the centre on his own feet. Direction Queen's Side.

I also looked at 5...fxe5 6.Nd5 Qd8 7.Bg5 and found it annoying. 7...Be7 (7...Nge7 8.Nh4) 8.Nxe7 Ngxe7 9.Nh4. Don't know...


The only alternatives I found are

1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 and now
5...Qe7!?
or
5...Qf6

all other moves fail, as we saw...
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #41 - 04/08/11 at 17:46:23
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Gambit wrote on 04/07/11 at 19:36:52:
Last I looked, the Felbecker Gambit went 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Bc5. I think it is worth a try. Also, I should mention the Zilbermints Gambit, 3...Nge7.


No, Lev, I can't warm my heart for the Zilbermints gambit.
As far as I remember, there were quite a few interesting ideas against it in Kaissiber 6/1998
E.g. the very simple 4.Nc3 Ng6 5.Bg5 Be7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 (I know you gave 6...Ngxe7 but that results in a 4:3-pawnroller on the King's side cause you have to return to g6 with your Knight again to get that pawn back: 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 Re8 9.e4 Ng6 10.Ne1!? Ngxe5 11.f4 Ng6 12.Nf3. I clearly would bet for White) 7.Nd5 Qd8 8.Qd2 and White is ahead in development a that with a pawn up (8...Ngxe5 9.Nxe5 Nxe5 10.Qc3). Don't like it.
And 4.Bf4 is strong too.
I think 3...Nge7 is to slow. I makes no sense to me to sac a pawn and then creep to get it back.
That is the reason I'm looking for the Soller where, if White takes Black gets a fluent development and two half-open files in return. Strictly taken not enough but with some play.
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #40 - 04/07/11 at 19:36:52
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Last I looked, the Felbecker Gambit went 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Bc5. I think it is worth a try. Also, I should mention the Zilbermints Gambit, 3...Nge7.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #39 - 04/07/11 at 11:35:10
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CraigEvans wrote on 04/06/11 at 20:45:54:
As a summary, we currently have the two variations:

i) 7.Nc3 Nd4 and now:
   a) 8.O-O c6 9.Ne2! Nxe2+ 10.Qxe2 +-
   b) 8.Be3?! Be7? 9.Qh5+ Kf8 10.O-O Bf6 11.f4! +-

ii) 7.O-O Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3 Nd4? 10.f4 +-

Any lines henceforth should either improve or deviate somewhere within these - no more weak moves like 8.f4 please! (Even if this does still give white an edge, it doesn't refute the gambit completely - I reckon the other lines do).


I have to admit that I'm shocked about my superficial attempts in analysis.
                Undecided
It's no excuse, that I did it with brain on a wooden board only (or was it with a wooden brain on a board...) since my PC (with all my files  Cry) passed away some days ago...

Your analysis and the points Fllg gave touch the weakness of Black's position directly. The chronical vulnerability of the squares e6-f7-g8 is a hugh burden, Black obviously can't get rid of.
I hoped that the manouevres Nd4/Bg4/Be7 may tame White's play. Especially this Nc6-d4 was a cornerstone to my intentions, not in an agressive way but in a defensive as it covers e6 and may cooperate with a Bc8-g4. But in fact Black lacks the time for it.  I simply overlooked the power of f2-f4 with a rook behind it.
I would really like to see this variation work to some point (that it may come close to some sort of equality at least in terms of complex play). In the Soller-Gambit accepted one may find this complex play resembling the BDG. But in those rude variations with early e2-e4 and non-acceptance it is difficult to achieve. That Gambit-pawn on f6 badly disturbs normal development.

Okay some new ideas (with wooden brain Grin)

To variation ii (1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 d6 6.Ng5 Nh6 7.0-0 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3):

What about 9...Na5 now as the diagonal d1-h5 is blocked and on the other hand the diagonal b6-g1 is opened?
10.Be2 c6 11.f4 Be7
but , oah
10.Be6 Be7 11.Nd5 c6 12.Nxe7 Qxe7 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14. f4
looks good
so does
10.Ne6
sigh!

To variation i (1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 d6 6.Ng5 Nh6 7.Nc3 Nd4)

8.Be3
your analysis to 8...Be7 convincing. But you havn't looked at
8...Bg4 9.f3 Be7 10.Qd2 Bd7 yet.

8.0-0
what about
8...Bg4
with the idea
9.f3 Be7
yes, I know, shaky...

7...Nd4 here seems to be to optimistic too.
Better may be
7...Bg4 8.f3
and now
8...Be7 9.h4 bd7

or directly
8...Bd7
8...Bh5? 9.Ne6 Qd7 10.Bxh6 gxh6 11.Nd5
9.Be3 Nd4
Ha, there is my idea again...
Another attempt is 9...a6.
I even  came across the weired idea 9...Qb8!? with Nc6-d8 or Nc6-a5 and b7-b5 in mind. But that is, well, artifical, there is 10.a4...
be it as it may, there is simply
9.0-0
moveordering to the previous variation where 9...Na5 failed.

All in all: Red allert for the Soller...
Black has to find an earlier deviation... if there is one.
Dire straits...

I even touched 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 Bb4+!?/?!/? 5.c3 Bc5 to disturb White's normal development a bit. Without Nb1-c3 Black later can play Qd8-e7.
6.b4 Bb6 7.a4
chasing the Bishop looks normal. Then
7...a6 8.Nbd2 Qe7 9.Nc4 Ba7
or else. Convincing? Har... at least not as crushed as the above.
Grin

Is the Felbecker (1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Bc5postponing f7-f6 to a more aproriate time) the last resort?
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #38 - 04/07/11 at 09:41:55
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7.Nc3 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.0-0 (or 7.0-0 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3) 9...Na5 and now:

A) 10.Be6 Be7 (10...c6 11.Bxd7+ Qxd7 12.c4 +/-) 11.f4 Bxg5 12.Qh5+ g6 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.Qxg5 with some attacking chances for White, though Black can probably hold.

B) 10.Ne6 (probably best) 10...Qc8 11.Nxf8 Rxf8 (11...Nxc4 12.Nxd7 Qxd7 13.Qd5 +/-) 12.Be2 b6 13.Bxh6 gxh6 14.f4 with a considerable advantage for White.

Or 9...Be7 10.f4 exf4 (10...Bg4 11.Qd5 +/-) 11.Bxf4 Bxg5 12.Qh5+ g6 13.Qxg5 Ng4 (exchanging queens allows White a powerful, probably decisive, attack) 14.Qd5 Nge5 15.Be2 and Black again faces a tough defence.

These lines put me in mind of an Italian Game with Black having a weakened kingside (consistent with the transposition from a poor line of the Rousseau Gambit mentioned earlier).  If White was forced to take on f6 then I might consider the Soller Gambit attractive enough for a try in casual games but I wouldn't want to defend these 4.e4 positions as black.

4...d6 (instead of 4...fxe5) might be Black's best practical try, leaving White with nothing better than 5.exf6 Nxf6, but Black might prefer to have the pawn on d5 and restrict White's e-pawn to e3 (as often happens after the immediate 4.exf6)- Black will struggle for compensation in this more restrained version.  I looked at 4...fxe5 5.Bc4 Bc5, when Black gets a half-decent game after 6.Ng5 Qf6 7.0-0 Nge7, but then 6.Bxg8! (intending 6...Rxg8 7.Qd5) gives White a decisive advantage.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #37 - 04/06/11 at 20:45:54
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As a summary, we currently have the two variations:

i) 7.Nc3 Nd4 and now:
   a) 8.O-O c6 9.Ne2! Nxe2+ 10.Qxe2 +-
   b) 8.Be3?! Be7? 9.Qh5+ Kf8 10.O-O Bf6 11.f4! +-

ii) 7.O-O Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3 Nd4? 10.f4 +-

Any lines henceforth should either improve or deviate somewhere within these - no more weak moves like 8.f4 please! (Even if this does still give white an edge, it doesn't refute the gambit completely - I reckon the other lines do).
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #36 - 04/06/11 at 20:42:05
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I'd also like to know why Lev so rudely ignored my line after 8.Be3 entirely - since that was the main line we were discussing for white, why have we suddenly changed to two other lines?

f4 is just premature, either on move 8 or move 9, without provocation. So 8.f4? is just wrong (though still better for white) and 8.O-O c6 should simply be met by 9.Ne2 - a positional solution to prove black's positional shambles - where 9...Nxe2+ 10.Qe2 leaves black struggling for a good move! 10...Be7? 11.Qh5+ wins, 10...Qf6 11.f4! is very strong, and 10...Bg4 11.f3 Be7!? 12.h4! Bd7 13.a4! is also positionally dominating for white - black can neither play the freeing ...b5, nor comfortably contemplate castling long when white's attack will be so quick.

When I defended weak gambits in the past, I usually had the guts or decency to accept when I'd be busted. I hope that eventually Lev and Motorhead will be able to do the same - this opening is not playable against a prepared opponent. Black is getting smashed positionally, he has no attack and no play, and no real prospects other than a long, grim battle to cling on.

7...Nd4 looks like a good move to you, Lev, because you always ignore any analysis or moves which might be favourable for your opponent. 7...Nd4 looks like a losing move to me.
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #35 - 04/06/11 at 18:19:04
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I assume you adress 7.Nc3 Nd4? here.

Both your lines can be improved for White but I would like to know how you intend to meet 7.0-0 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3 since 9... Nd4? 10.f4 is surely +- already.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #34 - 04/06/11 at 16:52:35
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Really? Let me see about that! After 7...Nd4 we have the following lines:

I) 8 f4 Bg4! 9 Qd3 c6 10 h3 Bh5 11 g4 Bg6 12 f5 Bf7 13 Nxf7 Qh4+ 14 Kd1 Nxf7 and Black hangs on.

II) 8 00 c6 9 f4 Qb6 10 Na4 Qb4 11 b3 Bg4! 12 Nf3 Nxf3 13 gxf3 Bh3! Black is okay here also.

So, 7...Nd4 looks like a good move to me!

  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #33 - 04/06/11 at 16:18:08
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I have nothing to add to Craig´s convincing analysis and can only repeat that if you think Black can afford the time to play ... Nd4 than it's clear that my understanding of this position is very different from yours.  Wink

About 8.Qd5 Nd4? White can capture on b7 with a clear advantage since after 9.Qxb7 Nxc2? 10.Bb5+ Bd7 (or 10... Ke7 11.Nc3) 11.Ne6 is +-.

And after 8.Qd3 (intending Qg3 or sometimes Qb3) your "simple" 8... Na5? still fails to develop and puts the Knight on a bad square. White is clearly better with 9.Bd5 c6 10.Be6 threatening to trap the poor piece on a5 and underlining Blacks weaknesses on the white squares.

So there are several refutations of this.  Tongue
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #32 - 04/06/11 at 15:33:36
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For starters, Motorhead, in your line to Fllg, 9...Nd4? is met incredibly strongly by 10.f4 and white is winning. White is ahead in development, he is the aggressor - a move like 9...Nd4 fails to develop a piece when black is already critically behind in development, it sets up no real threats other than cheap traps. In essence, it smells wrong. 10.f4! is a simple move to find, but an impossible one to meet satisfactorially.

7.Nc3 Nd4 also smells wrong for the same reason. Black has no reason to be setting up play of his own - dogmatic but true.

However, I'd like some of what the author of that Kaissiber article was obviously sniffing when he decided that 8.Be3? (I think this move is poor and either 8.Ne2 or 8.O-O are far more pointed) Be7? (8...c6 is much stronger surely?) 9.Qh5+ Kf8 10.O-O Bf6?? was okay for black.

7.Nc3 Nd4 8.Be3? Be7? 9.Qh5+ Kf8 10.O-O Bf6?? 11.f4! totally wins for white, pretty much outright, doesn't it?? White has threats just about everywhere with moves like Nd5, fxe5, Rxf6+ and Bxh6 (after preparation) in the air. It's not even worth looking deeper - this is 1-0. Take 5 minutes to look at the shambles of black's position after any move - a sensible sample line is 11...Qe8 12.Qh4 Nxc2?? 13.fxe5! Qxe5 (13...Nxe3?? 14.Rxf6+! wins) 14.Rxf6+!! Qxf6 15.Nd5! and 1-0

I agree this line is interesting, but only as a player who would be a 2800 if his opponents all played it as black. It might interest you, and I really do applaud the efforts to find a dangerous sideline against 1.d4 (an opening which I struggle against), but this is utter, utter tripe. Of the refuted kind. I'd suggest you look at 8.Be3 c6 as an improvement but note that white is still comfortably better there - and then grimace when you see that 8.O-O (offering a transposition to the first line), or 8.Ne2 (exchanging off a black piece that has moved twice whilst developing the queen), are even stronger for white.

This line is refuted I'm afraid.
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #31 - 04/06/11 at 10:34:51
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CraigEvans wrote on 04/05/11 at 16:13:27:
Sometimes it makes me wonder why I bother...

I suggested 7.Nc3 was more accurate than 7.O-O on the last page - this renders 7...Na5 as impossible due to 8.Ne6! with a huge advantage (8...Qe7 loses to 9.Nd5!, whilst in the analagous line with 7.O-O Na5 8.Ne6?! Qe7 may hold)

7.Nc3 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.a4 (Or 9.O-O transposing back) is just very good for white - 9...Be7 is met by 10.h4 and white is just +/-. Black has a cramped position, a misplaced knight, no prospects of castling soon, absolutely no play. Anyone who wishes to defend black's position is insane. He has a long, hard grovel to a draw which might not even be attainable. White has better development, better space, better prospects. What exactly are we debating here?  Grin


(1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 d6! 6.Ng5 Nh6)

On 7.Nc3
Black's best option is

7...Nd4!
according to Kaissiber 5/1998 and I agree with that. After Nb1-c3 a Black Knight can't be chased away with c2-c3.
The moves Bc8-g4 and Sc6-d4 and Bf8-e7 play a major role in Black's concept. If White is able to castle queenside Black should play the manoeuvre Bg4/f3/Bd7 only after the move Nc6-d4, which after all is important, because it covers e6 (I gave that in the post before, as I gave there the problem-Knight g5 too).

8.Be3 Be7
Interesting is 8...Bg4 9.f3 Be7! 10.Qd2 Bd7. Now White is somehow linked to his Ng5 and on the other side there is b7-b5 to come, challenging White's domination on the white squares...

9.Qh5+ Kf8 10.0-0 Bf6!
turns out to be only +/=
according to Kaissiber.

Quite an interesting variation. That's what we are debating here... Wink
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #30 - 04/06/11 at 10:09:47
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Fllg wrote on 04/05/11 at 15:33:22:
I´m afraid I can´t agree with that either. After 7... Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3 the Knight on g5 isn´t in any danger since there is the nice square e6. Also after 9... Be7 10.f4 Black is in serious trouble since his King finds no shelter.
...
This line can also come up via 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 d6 6.Ng5 Nh6 etc. In my view this is just unplayable for Black.



Wellcome to the days of disagreement Grin

I can't agree with you too. You found the soft spot in Black's position: The vulnerable white squares e6, f7, g8 disabling him to castle safely (if at all).

But your conclusion comes a bit to short. In fact the Ng5 is a bit on quicksand. Yes, he has as a ressort e6.

The direct and easiest way would therefore be the straight
(1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 d6! 6.Ng5 Nh6)

7.Ne6
Snatching the pair of Bishops right away

7...Bxe6 8.Bxe6
now after

8...Qf6
Black has surely a way to go to equalize. But I wouldn't dare to play that. After all the centre is quite stable and offers some possibilities for the Knights...


Especially that last point too is what you missed in your judgement after
(1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 d6! 6.Ng5 Nh6)

7.0-0 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3
as you said, the white squares (esp. e6) in Black's camp are weak. I meant White's Ng5 to be vulnerable to an attack with Bf8-e7. So let's mix the statements: Black first has to cover e6 and only then attack the Ng5.
So to me

9...Nd4!
meets the point. That by no means is dangerous to White. He only has to look for his pieces and so his initiative vanishes. Ng5 is a bit unsave. Due to f2-f3 White can't play the annoying  Qh5+. On the other side Black threatens b7-b5 driving back the Bc4 which itself is a cornerstone in the reign over e6 and f7...

10.Be3
seems natural.

10...Be7
too. And now?

11.h4
(11.Qd2? Nxc2+ another idea of Nc6-d4; 11.Nh3 Bxh3 12.gxh3 b5)

11...b5
and I am inclined to call the position interesting and lively.

Fllg wrote on 04/05/11 at 15:33:22:
After 7... Bg4
[...]
In addition both 8.Qd5 or Qd3 leave White clearly for choice because of the weakened white squares.


I think you'r a bit superficial with that.
8.Qd5 "?" in my eyes due to 8...Nd4! (again this useful move). Now White in fact is clearly for coice: Where is his Queen going to? She's threatened by 8...c6.

8.Qd3. Yes, playable. But what are you heading for with that? What about the simple 8...Na5 ?

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #29 - 04/06/11 at 01:06:59
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I sometimes play the following alternative:

1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 Qe7!?
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #28 - 04/05/11 at 16:13:27
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Sometimes it makes me wonder why I bother...

I suggested 7.Nc3 was more accurate than 7.O-O on the last page - this renders 7...Na5 as impossible due to 8.Ne6! with a huge advantage (8...Qe7 loses to 9.Nd5!, whilst in the analagous line with 7.O-O Na5 8.Ne6?! Qe7 may hold)

7.Nc3 Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.a4 (Or 9.O-O transposing back) is just very good for white - 9...Be7 is met by 10.h4 and white is just +/-. Black has a cramped position, a misplaced knight, no prospects of castling soon, absolutely no play. Anyone who wishes to defend black's position is insane. He has a long, hard grovel to a draw which might not even be attainable. White has better development, better space, better prospects. What exactly are we debating here?  Grin
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #27 - 04/05/11 at 15:33:22
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I´m afraid I can´t agree with that either. After 7... Bg4 8.f3 Bd7 9.Nc3 the Knight on g5 isn´t in any danger since there is the nice square e6. Also after 9... Be7 10.f4 Black is in serious trouble since his King finds no shelter.

In addition both 8.Qd5 or Qd3 leave White clearly for choice because of the weakened white squares.

This line can also come up via 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 d6 6.Ng5 Nh6 etc. In my view this is just unplayable for Black.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #26 - 04/05/11 at 06:01:33
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Motorhead is correct. That is indeed better.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #25 - 04/04/11 at 19:15:05
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Gambit wrote on 04/04/11 at 17:01:00:
In the Soller, the move order is 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 fxe4 5 Bc4 d6 6 Ng5 Nh6 7 00 Na5 looks okay  for Black. 


Why riding both horses to the rims?

I would play the zwischenzug 7...Bg4 which after 8.f3 Bd7 blocks the diagonal d1-h5 and so puts the Ng5 in problems after Bf8-e7.
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #24 - 04/04/11 at 18:38:00
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If you really think Black is okay here than it's clear that my understanding of this position is very different from yours.  Wink

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
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*

With both Knights offside and a weakened King I would be very surprised if White doesn´t emerge with a clear advantage. Even after something simple like 8.Be2 Be7 9.Bb5+!? c6 10.Qh5+.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #23 - 04/04/11 at 17:01:00
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Actually that is a typo. The moves are 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 b3 Ng6 5 Bb2 Bb4+ 6 Nbd2 Qe7, etc.

In the Soller, the move order is 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 fxe4 5 Bc4 d6 6 Ng5 Nh6 7 00 Na5 looks okay  for Black.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #22 - 04/04/11 at 12:14:38
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Gambit wrote on 04/02/11 at 18:29:59:
I would like to respond to a few points here concerning the Soller and related gambits.

First, after 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 fxe5  5 Bc4 [...] 5...d6 6 Ng5 00 7 00 g6 8 f4 ef4 9 Rxf4 Ne5 10 Ne6 Bxe6 11 Bxe6 Qe7 = ; 

So what am I missing here?


This must also be a strong contender for novelty of the year.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #21 - 04/04/11 at 10:23:46
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Gambit wrote on 04/03/11 at 14:13:55:
1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 b3 Bb4+ 5 Nbd2 Qe7 6 a3 Bxd2 7 Qxd2 00 with upcoming Re8- Nxe5-f6-N5f7.

Must be the novelty of the year, Lev. Though Black's 5th is no slouch either.
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #20 - 04/04/11 at 07:08:04
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Gambit wrote on 04/04/11 at 03:39:19:
William Williams, the inventor of the Williams Gambit, 1 f4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Qe2 ? I have his book on the Williams Gambit in English.

He sent me a signed copy. He also sent quite a bit of supplimentary analysis as well

Gambit wrote on 04/04/11 at 03:39:19:
You can ask me to share my games with the 4 b3 line.

As I said I used to play the 3...Nge7 quite a bit but not as much now.

Gambit wrote on 04/04/11 at 03:39:19:
Yes, I know New Zealand is quite small. Heard that for some reason, their relations with Australia are not very good. Any idea why?

It is like asking why americans and canadians get on so well? God knows
Hadron.
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #19 - 04/04/11 at 03:39:19
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William Williams, the inventor of the Williams Gambit, 1 f4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Qe2 ? I have his book on the Williams Gambit in English.

You can ask me to share my games with the 4 b3 line.
Yes, I know New Zealand is quite small. Heard that for some reason, their relations with Australia are not very good. Any idea why?
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #18 - 04/04/11 at 01:39:16
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Gambit wrote on 04/03/11 at 14:13:55:
Nice... Care to share the game score with us, Hadron?
Actually, 4 b3 was one of the two lines I analyzed originally in March 1993, at the gambit's inception.
This is the so-called Larsen Variation, named thus because of its similarity to 1 b3, the Larsen Opening.
You want to know how to play against it?

1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 b3 Bb4+ 5 Nbd2 Qe7 6 a3 Bxd2 7 Qxd2 00 with upcoming Re8- Nxe5-f6-N5f7.


I will dig out, it is not of the best quality in the world. You have to remember New Zealand is only a smallish country and to get in books and specialist magazines is not cheap and what you can get off the internet only goes so far.  I think all I have on 3...Nge7 is an old photocopy in german given to me by William Williams of the US
Cheers
Hadron  Shocked
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #17 - 04/03/11 at 14:13:55
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Nice... Care to share the game score with us, Hadron?
Actually, 4 b3 was one of the two lines I analyzed originally in March 1993, at the gambit's inception.
This is the so-called Larsen Variation, named thus because of its similarity to 1 b3, the Larsen Opening.
You want to know how to play against it?

1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7 4 b3 Bb4+ 5 Nbd2 Qe7 6 a3 Bxd2 7 Qxd2 00 with upcoming Re8- Nxe5-f6-N5f7.

  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #16 - 04/03/11 at 10:33:52
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I have that article, I think it was in CHESS in August 2000.  He mentions 8.Nd5 Ba5 9.Rb5 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 Kd8 11.Qg5+ (which leads only to an unclear position) and 11.e4 h6 "unclear" (the analysis stemmed originally from Grob, who gave the inaccurate continuation 12.h4 b6 13.Bc4 Qf8- White is actually clearly better here after 12.Bc4!, but Black can improve with 11...a6).  That article inspired me to take up the 3...Qe7 line of the Englund Gambit, as it actually looked quite viable theoreticallly before the real strength of 8.Nd5! became known.  Interestingly none of my games in the line got any further than 6...Bb4, when one opponent tried 7.Nd5?!- right idea at wrong time- as after 7...Bxd2+ White has a choice between 8.Nxd2 Nb4 and 8.Kxd2 Kd8, both pretty unclear/equal.

Stefan Bucker's latest article is here:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss48.pdf

I don't find Avrukh's 8.Nd5 Ba5 9.Rb5 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 Kd8 11.Ng5 Nh6 12.f4!? idea (mentioned in Wikipedia) too convincing, and it leads to similar play to the 11.e4 a6 covered in the article.  Instead I favour 9.e4 for White and think that 9...Nge7 10.Rb5 is even more convincing that 10.Bc4 (after 10.Rb5 Black's best is probably the pawn sac 10...Bxd2+ 11.Qxd2 0-0 12.Nxc7 Rb8, when Black will probably regain a pawn on a2 or e5, but White is still substantially better).

3...Nge7 4.b3!? seems quite a common response but objectively I don't think it challenges the viability of the system for Black.  Stefan Bucker mentions it in Kaissiber 5, recommending 4...Ng6 5.Bb2 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.a3 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 Ngxe5.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #15 - 04/03/11 at 02:57:15
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SWJediknight wrote on 04/02/11 at 14:58:33:
I think 3...Nge7 is indeed looking Black's best bet at the moment. 

You are quite right, Stadelman's line is best. Althought, I played it against a former female New Zealand Olympiad rep once where she whipped out 4.b3!? which I had not seen before. I managed to win the game but it required an ounce of luck.
SWJediknight wrote on 04/02/11 at 14:58:33:
As Stefan Bucker noted in his online articles, 3...Qe7 is playable as long as your opponent doesn't know about the line 4.Bf4 Qb4+ 5.Bd2 Qxb2 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Rb1 Qa3 8.Nd5!, but if White finds that line then Black is in for some turbulence (where if 8...Ba5, then 9.e4 is probably even stronger than the immediate 9.Rb5, and gives White a clear advantage, while 8...Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 Qxa2 10.Rd1 Kd8 11.Ng5! is even]worse for Black in my opinion). 

Now, I did not know that. I have an old article by Andrew Martin who only mentions 11.Qg5+ and 11.e4 so where did you say you got your info from again?
Hadron
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I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #14 - 04/02/11 at 18:29:59
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I would like to respond to a few points here concerning the Soller and related gambits.

First, after 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 fxe5  5 Bc4 is horrible for Black. I just checked the chesslive.de database for this line, and White wins the vast absolute majority of the games in this line! However, it must be mentioned that none of the Black players were rated 2000 or higher.  Computer analysis might improve the position for Black. To throw out a few lines:

5...d6 6 Ng5 Nh6 7 Nxh7 Bg4! = ; 5...d6 6 Ng5 00 7 00 g6 8 f4 ef4 9 Rxf4 Ne5 10 Ne6 Bxe6 11 Bxe6 Qe7 = ; 

So what am I missing here?

Second, the Englund Gambit, 3...Qe7. I agree with the evaluation posted here.

Third, the Zilbermints Gambit, 3...Nge7. I don't know why HTH keeps calling it the Stadelman even though current evidence shows no known games of Stadelman's with 3...Nge7. Even though Samuel Leigh Stadelman analysed some lines in Philadelphia Inquirer back in the 1920s or the 1930s (not sure which!) , I have no games of his with 3...Nge7. All known  Stadelman's games started out with 1 e4, not 1 d4.
I am trying to locate more data about Samuel Leigh Stadelman right now. So far, I know more than when Stefan Buecker informed me about him in 1996.

Samuel Leigh Stadelman was born 19 November 1881. Apparently a life-long native of Pennsylvania.
First known chess tournament, 1891. Played in Anglo-American cable matches for the American team, early 1900s. Won the chess championship of Franklin Chess Club in 1907 and 1908. Served in World War I, 1917-1918. Might have served in the reserves in World War II, possibly posted to Canada, circa 1942.
During WW2, many  men aged 18-65 were called into active or reserve army service. Died fl. 1942. Buried in Ardmore, Pennsylvania.

I should point out that in all the time I have been researching Stadelman's life, I never came across any of his games with 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Nge7.
The most that could be said is that he analysed some lines. However, there is a big difference between analysing some lines and practical play!

Finally, the Zilbermints Gambit is Black's best line in the 1 d4 e5 complex.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #13 - 04/02/11 at 14:58:33
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I think 3...Nge7 is indeed looking Black's best bet at the moment.  I think White can still get an advantage between += and +/- against 4.Nc3 h6 (a better practical try than 4...Ng6 5.Bg5!), but it's not trivial for White to prove this OTB.  I have a suspicion that White might be able to get a similar advantage with 4.Bf4 with very accurate play, but Black's practical chances are excellent in Zilbermints's pet line 4...Ng6 5.Bg3 (5.e3 d6 gives enough compensation for +=) 5...Qe7 6.Nc3 Qb4.

As Stefan Bucker noted in his online articles, 3...Qe7 is playable as long as your opponent doesn't know about the line 4.Bf4 Qb4+ 5.Bd2 Qxb2 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Rb1 Qa3 8.Nd5!, but if White finds that line then Black is in for some turbulence (where if 8...Ba5, then 9.e4 is probably even stronger than the immediate 9.Rb5, and gives White a clear advantage, while 8...Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 Qxa2 10.Rd1 Kd8 11.Ng5! is even worse for Black in my opinion).  Perhaps Black's best practical chance is the escape-hatch 5...Qe7 intending 6.Bc3 f6, but it isn't altogether convincing.  Other slightly-advantageous tries for White (8.Rb3, 4.Nc3, 4.Qd5) are not enough to seriously test the viabililty of 3...Qe7 in OTB play.  As not many players know about the strength of the Nd5 line, the 3...Qe7 line will probably still score well OTB, but it all depends on whether you're happy to take that risk.

I wouldn't want to take Black in the line 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4, even though Black can just about hold with best play.  For the same reason, after 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 f6, Craig Evans's suggestion 3.e4 Nc6 4.Nf3 (rather than 4.Bc4, 4.exf6 or 3.exf6), transposing to the same position, is probably best in a practical sense.

I still take a strong interest in the Englund, but I've largely shifted to using the Albin (1...d5 intending to meet c2-c4 with ...e7-e5) as my main anti-1.d4 weapon these days.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #12 - 04/02/11 at 11:14:05
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CraigEvans wrote on 04/02/11 at 09:09:58:
Black would be best advised to stay away from the Soller, and investigate 3...Nge7 or otherwise something other than 1...e5 completely.

I agree with Craig, the Soller is not the best. I think the Stadelman gambit is about the only thing that makes 1.d4 e5 any where near playable. I used to play it quite a lot over the board until I took the Polish up.
HTH
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #11 - 04/02/11 at 09:09:58
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Why is 4.Bc4 stronger than 4.Nf3?

The line 4.Nf3 fxe5 5.Bc4 looks pretty awful to my eyes - and I used to play it as black so I should know! I seem to remember the line 5...d6 6.Ng5 Nh6 7.Nc3 being problematic - white argues that his position is just superior and develops normally - he controls d5, has a lead in development, the Bc4 strongly rakes down the a2-g8 diagonal. I'm guessing that someone playing the Soller is looking for an active game with attacking chances. What he has on his hands here is a grovel, pure and simple. With absolute best play he might only be +=, but it looks a lot closer to +/- to me. Black would be best advised to stay away from the Soller, and investigate 3...Nge7 or otherwise something other than 1...e5 completely.
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #10 - 03/29/11 at 05:48:40
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I played a number of Soller Gambits in OTB tournaments. Will post them here later.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #9 - 03/28/11 at 22:46:33
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Actually you're right (I have the book in front of me confirming what you say), I vaguely remember reading about that line (given as recommended by Soller himself) and it must have slipped my mind.  There are various alternatives for both sides but overall "+=" seems fair.

Thus maybe White doesn't have anything better than to transpose back to the Soller Gambit proper with 4.Nf3 or 4.exf6 Nxf6 5.Nf3.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #8 - 03/28/11 at 21:31:30
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/28/11 at 08:58:37:
After the immediate 2...f6 3.e4! is a lot stronger (reaching a position that can also arise via 1.e4 e5 2.d4 f6 3.dxe5).  If 3...Nc6 (3...fxe5 4.Qh5+) then 4.Bc4 is superior to 4.Nf3 and leads to +/- according to Bucker's 1988 book Englund Gambit, and when I checked the line with computer assistance a couple of years ago it looked pretty convincing for White.


Is Black that bad after 4.Bc4 Nxe5 ?
Bücker has this line only with +/= in his book.
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #7 - 03/28/11 at 21:18:27
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Nelson wrote on 03/27/11 at 20:34:50:
Thanks Motorhead.

I'm glad I've decided to update some of the unusual defenses to 1 d4 as it seems I might be a bit out of date.

How old is Kassiber 5 as I've never seen this before.

Anyhow d6 looks like desperation to me adn I can't see where "close to equalising" comes from.

Even if white plays a typical Guioco line the loss of the d4 pawn break is less of a hindrance than the fact that Black has difficilty castling kingside and cannot play Be6 to challenge the bishop.

Perhaps the simple h3 and a4 are white best next 2 moves to indicate an obvious advantage.

Anyway I will look at it further.

Kind Regards,

Nelson  Smiley



Ha, well, I wouldn't call 5...d6 desperation. Stefan Bücker is more rationale and calls it "seemingly the only hope for the second player who wants to use the Soller with the move order 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 f6". It simply tends to hold much better than any other attempt. Okay, in his book Englund Gambit from 1988, which has 33 pages on the Soller he had given 5...d6 a "?" on basis of a bad played game. But he later changed his mind.

After all 5...Nf6 is much more desperation. Driven by the despair to win every single game even with Black at all costs, Black decides to pay with a theoretically clear loss
Grin
May work against those who fear the dark. But it's simply  not more than a trapp. And what a silly one it is. White only needs to be gready enough to collect clear advantage: 6.Ng5 Bc5 7.Nf7 Bxf2+ 8.Kxf2 Nxe4 9.Kg1. Not too dificult to find it otb.

On 5...d6 your 6.h3 stops Bc8-g4 but gives just enough time for Black to build up for defence.
Stefan Bücker in Kaissiber 5/1998 gave 6...Nf6 7.Ng5 Qe7 and stops. Black has avoided a fork on f7. Yes, there is 8.Bf7+ but Black isn't blown away with it. He can play 8...Kd8 (and even the ugly 8...Kd7). The Bishop f7 has to leave again (h7-h6 is in the air). 9.Bb3 Ke8 with h7-h6 to follow.

I looked at 6...Qe7 with Nc6-d8 to follow if a defence is needed against White's ambitions on f7. I too glanced at 6...h6, a bit shaky...

Wow, pounding attacking moves, that. Qd8-e7 or h7-h6...

But things aren't that easy for White. And the reason is that he exchanged his d-pawn for Black's f-pawn, giving Black a quite solid  2:1 pawn-centre. It is not easy for White to open the centre. The only lever is f2-f4 or he has to sacrifice. I don't see this working right now. So Black has enough time to defend and he is not in a hurry with castling. He can prepare castling queen's side (if he is able to keep the right to do so - see Bücker's short line above but even then he will be able to untangle his pieces).
And later there may crop up some possibilties with a minority attack on the king's side. So there is some live in it. Black is okay...

The only test is 6.Ng5 at once but Black is in shape (I wouldn't call it an especially good one) after 6...Nh6. White's best choice in my eyes is the simple 7.Ne6 taking the pair of Bishops with a slight plus for White. But Black can well fight on.
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #6 - 03/28/11 at 11:21:15
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That is the reason why I play 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 before playing 3...f6!
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #5 - 03/28/11 at 08:58:37
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Black gets partial compensation for the pawn after 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 f6 4.exf6 Nxf6 but is a tempo down on the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit (which might give White sufficient compensation, but no more) so it shouldn't come close to being sufficient.  I think it could work at blitz, or as a surprise weapon at the sub 2100 level, but I'd prefer 3...Nge7 over 3...f6.

After 4.e4 fxe5 5.Bc4 d6 6.Ng5 Nh6 Black can indeed hold but has to play accurately to do so, while White has a pretty strong +=.

After the immediate 2...f6 3.e4! is a lot stronger (reaching a position that can also arise via 1.e4 e5 2.d4 f6 3.dxe5).  If 3...Nc6 (3...fxe5 4.Qh5+) then 4.Bc4 is superior to 4.Nf3 and leads to +/- according to Bucker's 1988 book Englund Gambit, and when I checked the line with computer assistance a couple of years ago it looked pretty convincing for White.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #4 - 03/28/11 at 01:40:03
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Soller Gambit is 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6

Now after 4 exf6 Nxf6 5 Bg5 h6 6 Bh4 g5 7 Bg3 Bc5
Black has compensation according to Buecker. If 5 e3 d5 6 Be2 Bd6 you have the Euwe Defense to the BDG  with colors reversed and White up a tempo.

After 1 d4 e5 2 dxe5 Nc6 3 Nf3 f6 4 e4 fxe4 5 Bc4 Black should be able to hold on with correct play. See chesslive.de database for games. As was noted here, 4 e4 is not the acid test of the Soller Gambit. Accepting the gambit with 4 exf6 (or 3 ef6) is the critical test.
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #3 - 03/27/11 at 20:34:50
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Thanks Motorhead.

I'm glad I've decided to update some of the unusual defenses to 1 d4 as it seems I might be a bit out of date.

How old is Kassiber 5 as I've never seen this before.

Anyhow d6 looks like desperation to me adn I can't see where "close to equalising" comes from.

Even if white plays a typical Guioco line the loss of the d4 pawn break is less of a hindrance than the fact that Black has difficilty castling kingside and cannot play Be6 to challenge the bishop.

Perhaps the simple h3 and a4 are white best next 2 moves to indicate an obvious advantage.

Anyway I will look at it further.

Kind Regards,

Nelson  Smiley
  
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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #2 - 03/27/11 at 20:24:22
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Quote:
Gambit recently stated that the Soller Gambit "offers good chances" in


For Gambit that means "good practical chances in an online blitz game against an unprepared opponent"
  

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Re: Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
Reply #1 - 03/27/11 at 19:46:26
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Nelson wrote on 03/27/11 at 19:23:31:
Dear All,

Gambit recently stated that the Soller Gambit "offers good chances" in a recent post on the Zilbermints Gambit in Euwe defence (post 155)

Does anyone know which line these good chances are in??

According to my notes the main line runs:-

1 d4 e5,2 de f6 3 e4 Nc6 4 Nf3 fe 5 Bc4 Nf6 6 Ng5 Bc5 7 Nf7 Bf2 (Qe7 8 Nh8 d5 9 Bd5 Bg4 10 f3 Bh5 11 Bg5 o-o-o 12 c3 h6 13 Bf6 Qf6 14 b4 ) 8 Kf2 Ne4+ 9 Kg1 (Ke3) Qh4 10 g3 Ng3 11 Nh8 Nh1 12 Qd5 seems much better for white to me.

Regards,

Nelson  Cool


5...Nf6 is not a main line, but only a clear a mistake. Better is the seemingly passive 5...d6, which allows Black to come close to equality. See Kaissiber 5. If you want to call this "good chances" is your choice.

In my eyes 3.e4 is not the acid test to the Soller. I think snatching the pawn 3.exf6 or 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.exf6. Then Black only has the slightest form of a lead in development and the half open f-file. This is the real test.
  

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Soller Gambit offers good chances ??
03/27/11 at 19:23:31
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Dear All,

Gambit recently stated that the Soller Gambit "offers good chances" in a recent post on the Zilbermints Gambit in Euwe defence (post 155)

Does anyone know which line these good chances are in??

According to my notes the main line runs:-

1 d4 e5,2 de f6 3 e4 Nc6 4 Nf3 fe 5 Bc4 Nf6 6 Ng5 Bc5 7 Nf7 Bf2 (Qe7 8 Nh8 d5 9 Bd5 Bg4 10 f3 Bh5 11 Bg5 o-o-o 12 c3 h6 13 Bf6 Qf6 14 b4 ) 8 Kf2 Ne4+ 9 Kg1 (Ke3) Qh4 10 g3 Ng3 11 Nh8 Nh1 12 Qd5 seems much better for white to me.

Regards,

Nelson  Cool
  
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