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Semi-Semislav (Read 27034 times)

kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4960 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #29 - 05/05/11 at 18:47:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 05/04/11 at 23:17:42: The doubt is all on your side; there is none on mine. If you want to undertake the dreary game that Black gets with an early ...c6 in the Orthodox, be my guest. Honestly if that works, we should all be playing the Orthodox, and 1.d4, 2.c4 is no good. Somehow I doubt that. As a practical defense against a blood-and-guts attacker, I might play the Orthodox with the early ...c6. But probably not. If the early ...c6 "works" to the extent of being approximately on equal footing with the standard Orthodox (i.e. slightly better for White with best play), I hardly see how that would imply that we should all be playing the Orthodox or that 1. d4 and 2. c4 is no good. Incidentally I noticed that the Kaidanov-Bu game appeared in NIC magazine, issue 6 of 2002. I don’t think I have that; it might be interesting if someone could report on what the annotations had to say regarding the opening.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #28 - 05/04/11 at 23:17:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 05/03/11 at 17:52:23: I would think there is room for doubt about such a comparison. I take the traditional view (the one I originally learned) to be that after 7. Qc2 in the regular Orthodox, 7...c5 is clearly best and should equalize. But it's been my impression that for the last couple of decades or so, that is no longer held to be true. Sources like ECO, NCO and Pachman have thought that 7. Qc2 c5 and 7. Qc2 c6 should both lead to +/=. The willingness of some players like Bu, Kaidanov and Mikhail Gurevich to play the ...c6 version also seems in line with this. The doubt is all on your side; there is none on mine. If you want to undertake the dreary game that Black gets with an early ...c6 in the Orthodox, be my guest. Honestly if that works, we should all be playing the Orthodox, and 1.d4, 2.c4 is no good. Somehow I doubt that. As a practical defense against a blood-and-guts attacker, I might play the Orthodox with the early ...c6. But probably not.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4960 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #27 - 05/04/11 at 15:15:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	fling wrote on 05/04/11 at 05:24:56: I wouldn't call this Semi-slav either, but as I said, the continuation ...c6, ...b5 intending ...a6 and Bb7 seems like a semi-slav type of handling of the position (or QGA, or whatever). Schandorff actually has the position after Black's 6. ...c6 under Semi-slav in his book, but also calls it a QGD. No matter what we call it, the thing is to know how to handle the situation and this may require an understanding of both the QGD and Semi-slav to see why White is or isn't better, I think. After 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. 0-0, I found that Schandorff gives that it makes sense for Black to include the moves 8 ...h6 and 9. Bh4. Here he has three games - Ki. Georgiev-Houska, 2008, Goldin-Barua, 1999 and Kazhgaleyev-Gurevich, 2008. All with an advantage for White after 9...dxc4 10.Bxc4 b5 11. Bd3 Bb7 12. Rc1 Rc8 13. Qe2. This (those games as well as Finegold-Kaidanov) in fact transposes to a branch of the Orthodox which is D66 in the Informant/ECO system, i.e. where after Rc1 and Bd3 Black plays ...dc and ...b5 (sometimes prefaced by ...h6) instead of Capablanca's freeing maneuver. ECO (2004) also thinks highly of 13. Qe2, citing a game in which Tal played it in 1981.


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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #26 - 05/04/11 at 12:02:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 05/04/11 at 11:32:28: fling wrote on 05/04/11 at 05:24:56: No matter what we call it, the thing is to know how to handle the situation and this may require an understanding of both the QGD and Semi-slav to see why White is or isn't better, I think. I answered that one already, didn't I? 7.Qc2 followed by castling Queenside, because Black is cramped and will have to spend quite a few tempi to complete development - especially Bc8. Thus White's attack will be the quicker one. At the other hand White can afford to spend a tempo for the defence, ie slowing down Black's attack. Yes, you did. I agree. It seems that White for sure has more than one good plan and 7. Bd3 should be ok as well, even though I wasn't sure of the follow-up. On the other hand, 7. Rc1 is probably a bit inaccurate, since White might want to play 8. Rd1, as already pointed out.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10766 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #25 - 05/04/11 at 11:32:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	fling wrote on 05/04/11 at 05:24:56: No matter what we call it, the thing is to know how to handle the situation and this may require an understanding of both the QGD and Semi-slav to see why White is or isn't better, I think. I answered that one already, didn't I? 7.Qc2 followed by castling Queenside, because Black is cramped and will have to spend quite a few tempi to complete development - especially Bc8. Thus White's attack will be the quicker one. At the other hand White can afford to spend a tempo for the defence, ie slowing down Black's attack.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #24 - 05/04/11 at 05:24:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	I wouldn't call this Semi-slav either, but as I said, the continuation ...c6, ...b5 intending ...a6 and Bb7 seems like a semi-slav type of handling of the position (or QGA, or whatever). Schandorff actually has the position after Black's 6. ...c6 under Semi-slav in his book, but also calls it a QGD. No matter what we call it, the thing is to know how to handle the situation and this may require an understanding of both the QGD and Semi-slav to see why White is or isn't better, I think. After 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. 0-0, I found that Schandorff gives that it makes sense for Black to include the moves 8 ...h6 and 9. Bh4. Here he has three games - Ki. Georgiev-Houska, 2008, Goldin-Barua, 1999 and Kazhgaleyev-Gurevich, 2008. All with an advantage for White after 9...dxc4 10.Bxc4 b5 11. Bd3 Bb7 12. Rc1 Rc8 13. Qe2.


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4960 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #23 - 05/03/11 at 23:43:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	I had in mind the game I mentioned at #5, given below from TWIC. Okay, there's the possibility that Kaidanov would have delayed castling versus 7. Qc2. Like Markovich, I certainly wouldn't classify this as a Semi-Slav (e.g. the position after 6...Nbd7 is to be found in ECO under D54, for which the "official" starting moves are 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Be7 5. e3). [Event "ch-USA GpB"] [Site "Saint Louis USA"] [Date "2011.04.17"] [Round "3"] [White "Finegold,B"] [Black "Kaidanov,G"] [Result "1-0"] [WhiteTitle "GM"] [BlackTitle "GM"] [WhiteElo "2500"] [BlackElo "2569"] [ECO "D43"] [Opening "QGD semi-Slav"] [WhiteFideId "2000261"] [BlackFideId "2008564"] [EventDate "2011.04.15"] 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c6 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 Nbd7 7. Bd3 O-O 8. O-O h6 9. Bh4 dxc4 10. Bxc4 b5 11. Bd3 Bb7 12. Rc1 Rc8 13. Ne5 b4 14. Bxf6 Nxf6 15. Ne4 c5 16. Nxc5 Bxc5 17. dxc5 Qa5 18. c6 Ba8 19. f4 Rc7 20. Rf2 Nd5 21. Qf3 Rd8 22. Rfc2 Qb6 23. Rc5 Nc3 24. Rc4 Nd5 25. Rc5 Nc3 26. Rc4 Nd5 27. Kf2 Ne7 28. Qh5 Nd5 29. Qf3 Ne7 30. Qh5 Nd5 31. Qe2 Re7 32. Nd7 Qc7 33. Be4 Qd6 34. Ne5 Rc7 35. Qc2 f6 36. Nf3 Qe7 37. Rd1 Rd6 38. Nd4 a6 39. Bxd5 Rxd5 40. Qe4 Rc8 41. Rdc1 a5 42. R1c2 Re8 43. c7 Rc5 44. Qxe6+ 1-0


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10766 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #22 - 05/03/11 at 21:22:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Gurevich indeed - and with success. But didn't find any games with Kaidanov playing 7...c6 and only one with Bu - against Kaidanov.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4960 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #21 - 05/03/11 at 17:52:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 05/03/11 at 16:16:21: If I understand you correctly, you're saying that this is a Semi-Slav and that Black is OK. But as I keep saying, it's an Orthodox QGD where Black is committed to the suboptimal, early ...c6. Schandorff may not observe this, but it's true nonetheless. Black is so solid that he may be able to draw, but his task is definitely more dreary than if he simply played the QGD in the standard way. So Black certainly does not get a good game if White knows what he's doing, in particular if he plays 7.Qc2. If you want to play suboptimal moves that's your business, but it's irksome to come here and keep insisting that these moves lead to a good game. I would think there is room for doubt about such a comparison. I take the traditional view (the one I originally learned) to be that after 7. Qc2 in the regular Orthodox, 7...c5 is clearly best and should equalize. But it's been my impression that for the last couple of decades or so, that is no longer held to be true. Sources like ECO, NCO and Pachman have thought that 7. Qc2 c5 and 7. Qc2 c6 should both lead to +/=. The willingness of some players like Bu, Kaidanov and Mikhail Gurevich to play the ...c6 version also seems in line with this.


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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #20 - 05/03/11 at 17:23:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Schandorff doesn't mention the plan with ...b5, ...Bb7 and ...a6, but it seems like White should play e4, I guess, after 7. Bd3 dxc4 8. Bxc4 b5 9. Bd3. Then Black must be worse after both 9...Bb7 10.e4 and 9 ...a6 10. e4, right?


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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #19 - 05/03/11 at 16:33:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree that it might be a QGD, even though the a6-c6-b5-set-up is more semi-slav than QGD to me, just because Black normally pushes ...c5 in one go. Anyway, I am not saying Black is fine, but that in my games, I have probably played suboptimally after 7.Bd3 and Black has had a good game. What I meant to say is that it feels like Black should be worse after wasting a tempo on ...c6-c5 instead of playing it in one go, but I haven't yet discovered a good antidote after 7. Bd3 dxc4 8. Bxc4. Most likely, 7. Qc2 is better, since White has good chances of winning the tempo-battle (as Sadler explains it). I need to go back to study these lines again, it was a long time ago. I have focused on 1.c4 lately.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #18 - 05/03/11 at 16:16:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	fling wrote on 05/03/11 at 10:05:19: Oblonskij wrote on 03/31/11 at 08:22:35: I had a game where black, after 7. Bd3, tried an expanded fianchetto delaying 0-0. I remember i struggled for an answer, i'll dig the game up if i can. Something like dxc4 Bxc4 b5 Bd3 Bb7 and i was somehow a tempo short to play the usual a4 antidote because i didn't have Rc1 in and b4 followed by c5 was possible. Normally i play 7. Qc2 here (i get the position a lot from the semislav, >50% of the time if opponent is below 2000), but wanted to try Schandorff's recipe. Probably that plan can be countered, just something to be aware of. This is what I meet most of the time in blitz as well. I haven't had time to see what Schandorff recommends, but so far I have also felt like I end up in a semi-slav, with Black having a good game. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that this is a Semi-Slav and that Black is OK. But as I keep saying, it's an Orthodox QGD where Black is committed to the suboptimal, early ...c6. Schandorff may not observe this, but it's true nonetheless. Black is so solid that he may be able to draw, but his task is definitely more dreary than if he simply played the QGD in the standard way. So Black certainly does not get a good game if White knows what he's doing, in particular if he plays 7.Qc2. If you want to play suboptimal moves that's your business, but it's irksome to come here and keep insisting that these moves lead to a good game.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #17 - 05/03/11 at 10:05:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Oblonskij wrote on 03/31/11 at 08:22:35: I had a game where black, after 7. Bd3, tried an expanded fianchetto delaying 0-0. I remember i struggled for an answer, i'll dig the game up if i can. Something like dxc4 Bxc4 b5 Bd3 Bb7 and i was somehow a tempo short to play the usual a4 antidote because i didn't have Rc1 in and b4 followed by c5 was possible. Normally i play 7. Qc2 here (i get the position a lot from the semislav, >50% of the time if opponent is below 2000), but wanted to try Schandorff's recipe. Probably that plan can be countered, just something to be aware of. This is what I meet most of the time in blitz as well. I haven't had time to see what Schandorff recommends, but so far I have also felt like I end up in a semi-slav, with Black having a good game.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #16 - 04/18/11 at 13:22:30	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 04/17/11 at 19:53:05: But with White's rook not committed to c1, White can recapture on c3 with the pawn in the case of Capablanca's freeing maneuver (as in the above-mentioned 1903 game), and Black will be losing a tempo if he plays ...dc plus ...c5 (the book remedy against 7. Bd3 in the standard Orthodox move order). True. I overlooked that without White's rook on c1, the freeing maneuver works out less well after ...Nd5, e3-e4, and recaptures on c3 with the e-pawn. Nevertheless we still have an Orthodox Defense, not a Semi-Slav, and an Orthodox defense where Black has suboptimally played ...c6 instead of ...O-O. And I still maintain that 7.Qc2 is the best move, since the standard rejoinder to the early queen deployment is ...c5, which here would be a straightforward loss of tempo for Black. After 7.Bd3 as Black I would try 7...O-O and if 7.O-O, then 7...h6 8.Bh4 dxc4 9.Bxc4 b5 10.Bd3 a6, which scores rather well for Black in practice and which I think reveals 7.Bd3 to have a certain lack of luster. 7.Qc2 with prospect of O-O-O or even a3 before touching the bishop, looks much more promising to me. I concede that 7.Bd3 is also a good move; but it seems less ambitious to me than 7.Qc2. For one thing White can hope that Black will have to play ...dxc4 before the f1 bishop has moved. But again, it's an Orthodox, not a Semi-Slav.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4960 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Semi-Semislav Reply #15 - 04/17/11 at 19:53:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	But with White's rook not committed to c1, White can recapture on c3 with the pawn in the case of Capablanca's freeing maneuver (as in the above-mentioned 1903 game), and Black will be losing a tempo if he plays ...dc plus ...c5 (the book remedy against 7. Bd3 in the standard Orthodox move order).


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