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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Help with a QGA variation I ran into (Read 7279 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #11 - 04/04/11 at 18:13:41
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Eric, I'll let you correct your previous post. I'm sure you'll see the mistakes once you set up the board.
  
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TN
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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #10 - 04/04/11 at 12:45:12
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White's best answer to 3...Nc6 is 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.d5 Ne5 6.Bf4 Ng6 7.Be3. White has a small advantage, but Black can't really complain either as his position is quite easy to play. Schandorff recommends 5.Bc4, which I personally distrust, but it still deserves attention.
  

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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #9 - 04/04/11 at 04:24:37
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/03/11 at 18:44:50:
Eric, Black can transpose to the line mentioned by bigbelly by playing 9...Qxd1, which I showed in my notes.


It really doesn't matter as Black is much better after almost any move, but it doesn't transpose--I think Black should avoid ...Qxd1 in general.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e4 Nc6 4. Be3 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. d5 Nb4 7. Bxc4 Nxe4 8.
Bb5+ c6 9. dxc6 bxc6! 10. Ba4? Nc5! (10... Ba6, Rybka's suggestion, is maybe even stronger) 11. Qxd8+ Kxd8 and I can't see a defence for White.  But White can improve in your line with 10.Bxc6+! Nxc6 11.Qxd8+ Kxd8 12.fxe4, when Black is better but he missed his chance to win on the spot.  That's why I said I was confused--I assumed you would have noticed this if you were using an engine.

After 9.dxc6 Qxd1 White should probably again play 10.Bxc6+ Nxc6 11.fxe4, though admittedly Black is close to winning.

Anyway I'm just nitpicking, 7...Nxe4! is obviously very strong and gives Black a huge advantage.

  
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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #8 - 04/03/11 at 18:44:50
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Eric, Black can transpose to the line mentioned by bigbelly by playing 9...Qxd1, which I showed in my notes.
  
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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #7 - 04/03/11 at 16:59:38
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/03/11 at 13:09:09:
bigbelly, Black can play 12...Nc5, hitting the B on a4. This gains time and retains Black's advantage. Black may not actually be winning in your final position, but he certainly has a clear advantage.

Here are some lines I found with the aid of Firebird:


[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "66"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e4 Nc6 4. Be3 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. d5 Nb4 7. Bxc4 Nxe4 8.
Bb5+ c6 9. dxc6 bxc6 (9... Qxd1+ 10. Kxd1 bxc6 11. Ba4 Nc5) 10. Ba4 Qxd1+ 11.
Kxd1 Nc512. Bxc5 Bxc5 13. a3 Nd3 14. Bxc6+ Ke7 15. Bxa8 Nf2+ 16. Ke1 Nxh1 17.
Ne2 Bf2+
(17... Be6 18. Be4 Nf2 19. Nbc3 f5 20. Bc2 g6 21. b4 Bb6 22. Rc1 Rd8
23. Nd1 Nxd1 24. Bxd1 {Black has a slight edge due to his two bishops and more
active pieces.}) 18. Kf1 Ba6 19. Bd5 Rb8 (19... Bd4 20. Ke1 Nf2 21. Nxd4 Nd3+
22. Kd2 exd4 23. b4 Nf4 24. Be4 Nxg2 25. a4 Nh4 26. Na3 Rb8 27. b5 Bb7 28. Re1
Kf8 29. Rf1 Bxe4 30. fxe4) 20. b3 Bd4 21. Ra2 Nf2 22. Nbc3 (22. Nd2 Nd1 23. Bc4
Bxc4 24. Nxc4 Rxb3 25. Nxd4 exd4 26. Re2+ Kf6 27. Re4 d3) 22... Nd3 23. Rc2 f5
24. g3 Kd6 25. Bf7 Rb7 26. Bg8 Rc7 27. h4
(27. Bxh7 Bxc3 28. Rxc3 Nc1 {And
Black is winning.}) 27... Kd7 28. Bxh7 Bxc3 29. Bxf5+ Kd6 30. Rxc3 Nc1 31. Kf2
Nxe2 32. Rxc7 Kxc7 33. Bc2 Nd4
{And again, Black reaches a won position.} *


Umm, I'm really confused.  Unless I'm missing something, White should just play 10.Bxc6+ Nxc6 11.Qxd8+ Kxd8 12.fe, which I admit is still better for Black but at least White isn't losing.  After 10.Ba4? Black should just play 10...Nc5 immediately, when he's winning.  Or maybe even 10...Qh4+ or 10...Ba6.  I feel like I must be looking at the wrong position but I've double checked it.
  
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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #6 - 04/03/11 at 13:52:43
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In that case, 7..Nxe4 looks like a pretty intersting TN. The QGA book by Sakaev/Semkov only looks at 7..c6.
  

1d4!
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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #5 - 04/03/11 at 13:09:09
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bigbelly, Black can play 12...Nc5, hitting the B on a4. This gains time and retains Black's advantage. Black may not actually be winning in your final position, but he certainly has a clear advantage.

Here are some lines I found with the aid of Firebird:


[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "66"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e4 Nc6 4. Be3 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. d5 Nb4 7. Bxc4 Nxe4 8.
Bb5+ c6 9. dxc6 bxc6 (9... Qxd1+ 10. Kxd1 bxc6 11. Ba4 Nc5) 10. Ba4 Qxd1+ 11.
Kxd1 Nc512. Bxc5 Bxc5 13. a3 Nd3 14. Bxc6+ Ke7 15. Bxa8 Nf2+ 16. Ke1 Nxh1 17.
Ne2 Bf2+
(17... Be6 18. Be4 Nf2 19. Nbc3 f5 20. Bc2 g6 21. b4 Bb6 22. Rc1 Rd8
23. Nd1 Nxd1 24. Bxd1 {Black has a slight edge due to his two bishops and more
active pieces.}) 18. Kf1 Ba6 19. Bd5 Rb8 (19... Bd4 20. Ke1 Nf2 21. Nxd4 Nd3+
22. Kd2 exd4 23. b4 Nf4 24. Be4 Nxg2 25. a4 Nh4 26. Na3 Rb8 27. b5 Bb7 28. Re1
Kf8 29. Rf1 Bxe4 30. fxe4) 20. b3 Bd4 21. Ra2 Nf2 22. Nbc3 (22. Nd2 Nd1 23. Bc4
Bxc4 24. Nxc4 Rxb3 25. Nxd4 exd4 26. Re2+ Kf6 27. Re4 d3) 22... Nd3 23. Rc2 f5
24. g3 Kd6 25. Bf7 Rb7 26. Bg8 Rc7 27. h4
(27. Bxh7 Bxc3 28. Rxc3 Nc1 {And
Black is winning.}) 27... Kd7 28. Bxh7 Bxc3 29. Bxf5+ Kd6 30. Rxc3 Nc1 31. Kf2
Nxe2 32. Rxc7 Kxc7 33. Bc2 Nd4
{And again, Black reaches a won position.} *
  
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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #4 - 04/03/11 at 12:11:55
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Doesn't 8.Bb5+ refute this?

1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 Nc6 4.Be3 Nf6 5.f3 e5 6.d5 Nb4 7.Bxc4 Nxe4 8.Bb5+
c6 9.dxc6 bxc6 10.Ba4 Qxd1+ (10...Qh4+ 11.g3 Nxg3 12.Bf2 Nd3+ 13.Qxd3 Qxa4
14.hxg3) 11.Kxd1
and White threatens both fe and a3 folloewd by Bxc6.
  

1d4!
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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #3 - 04/02/11 at 21:21:35
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up and comer wrote on 04/02/11 at 17:37:04:
Thanks for the thorough response symslov fan. I am weak in my openings and this is the first time I've seen this move. I will look into playing 4. Nf3 or 5. Nc3 instead. The only reason I've been playing this line with f3 was because I saw a computer play it so I assumed it was a safe way to respond.

I guess you have learned a lesson the hard way. You might buy Mednis' Play good opening moves (I suppose this is the title; I own the German version). Basically you should keep three things in mind in the opening: control the centre, develop your pieces and keep your King safe. 5.f3 violates two of those three principles and does nothing in return (like winning a Queen or something). So it's easy to see why 5.Nc3 should be better.
Even if strong GM's violate these principles we amateurs should remain sceptic - until we are GM's ourselves.
What makes chess really hard is that it is not consistent. After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 the move 5.f3 is excellent. Now understanding the difference between the two 5.f3 moves might make you a better player.
  

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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #2 - 04/02/11 at 17:37:04
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Thanks for the thorough response symslov fan. I am weak in my openings and this is the first time I've seen this move. I will look into playing 4. Nf3 or 5. Nc3 instead. The only reason I've been playing this line with f3 was because I saw a computer play it so I assumed it was a safe way to respond. I know a lot of you are strong expert to GM level, and I wouldn't have asked this question here but I couldn't find the answers on my own in master games or in opening books.

I was shocked that he did it, I'd seen the possibility, but not the potential behind it. Symslov I went through that book twice last year  Embarrassed.
  

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Re: Help with a QGA variation I ran into
Reply #1 - 04/02/11 at 13:09:24
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My first response was really harsh: learn how to play chess.

What I mean by that is 5.f3!? looks like an elementary blunder. Yes, a few strong GMs have played it, the most famous being Karpov against Piket in 1999. Take a look at that game and how Karpov overprotected the e4 square. I don't see any strong GM repeating the experiment.

7.Bxc4 was the key mistake, which was made by some +2400 rated players. But I'm sure they would not have been "shocked" by 7...Nxe4!.

The "normal" move is 5.Nc3, after which White has a normal advantage. 5.f3 begs Black to start considering Nxe4 threats, just as 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 begs for 3.Nxe5.

The fact that you were "shocked" by 7...Nxe4 is why I decided to be so harsh. The few strong players who allowed it were goading their opponents to play Nxe4. There are good reasons why this line is so rarely played by strong GMs.

You need to be "shocked" into studying the classics. Study Reinfeld's 1001 Brilliant Chess Sacrifices and Bill Wall's similar book on miniatures. Work on tactics from the very first move and Always Analyse Forcing Moves First. Always analyse these sacs!
  
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Help with a QGA variation I ran into
04/02/11 at 09:49:21
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Play went like this

1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 Nc6 4.Be3 Nf6 5.f3 e5 6.d5 Nb4 7.Bxc4

and now the move that really shocked me was Nxe4. I held it together for 12 more moves but my opponents position overwhelmed me and I lost. I havent been able to find any games addressing this move. Does anyone have any ideas of how to survive in this position after fxe4 and Qh4+?
  

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