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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The 4.d3 anti-Berlin (Read 24032 times)
Keano
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #24 - 11/21/14 at 18:54:58
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trw wrote on 11/14/14 at 00:29:53:
It isn't a "serious" move because it gives up any attempt for advantage on move 4. It makes Berlin players happy and justifies our playing 3... Nf6.


Huh Huh Huh
  
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PANFR
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #23 - 11/19/14 at 11:16:19
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4.d3 is a very serious move, because it does not allow Black to sacrifice his bishop at g4...  Grin
  
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tony37
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #22 - 11/14/14 at 11:47:06
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RdC wrote on 11/14/14 at 09:01:01:
But what is the follow up? Is it Bc5 as played by Anand? For someone who always plays Be7 even against Bc4 systems, that's not a cause of joy.

I don't think there's anything wrong with 4...d6 either
  
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RdC
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #21 - 11/14/14 at 09:01:01
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trw wrote on 11/14/14 at 00:29:53:
It makes Berlin players happy and justifies our playing 3... Nf6.
                   



But what is the follow up? Is it Bc5 as played by Anand? For someone who always plays Be7 even against Bc4 systems, that's not a cause of joy.
  
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trw
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #20 - 11/14/14 at 00:29:53
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It isn't a "serious" move because it gives up any attempt for advantage on move 4. It makes Berlin players happy and justifies our playing 3... Nf6.
  
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Keano
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #19 - 11/11/14 at 21:30:06
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there will always be improvements for both sides but 4.d3 is a very serious move, it was revealing in Kramniks DVD that him and his team were well aware of this.

I was hoping for a retraction from TonyK, but doubting it will come.
  
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tony37
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #18 - 11/11/14 at 10:48:15
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belgian wrote on 11/11/14 at 06:36:38:
Keano wrote on 11/10/14 at 20:19:57:
I'd be interested if people still love to play against 4.d3


Yes. One win by Carlsen will not change my mind. In that game, 18.-Qf7 is an "obvious" improvement for example.

or 10...Qf6
  
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bragesjo
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #17 - 11/11/14 at 08:13:57
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Keano wrote on 11/10/14 at 20:19:57:
I'd be interested if people still love to play against 4.d3, can people finally accept it is a serious move?


I am waiting for 4 Nc3 to be taken as a serious move at wch level.
It might not give a theoretical advantage but there is a lot of play in the position.
  
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belgian
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #16 - 11/11/14 at 06:36:38
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Keano wrote on 11/10/14 at 20:19:57:
I'd be interested if people still love to play against 4.d3


Yes. One win by Carlsen will not change my mind. In that game, 18.-Qf7 is an "obvious" improvement for example.

Keano wrote on 11/10/14 at 20:19:57:
can people finally accept it is a serious move?


I don't believe it gives White a serious chance at an opening advantage but it's certainly an excellent practical move, leaving enough play in the position to later outplay an opponent.

Since it's near impossible to demonstrate a plus against the Berlin endgame, it has been a popular choice at all levels.
  
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Keano
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #15 - 11/10/14 at 20:19:57
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I'd be interested if people still love to play against 4.d3, can people finally accept it is a serious move?
  
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #14 - 11/10/14 at 15:50:48
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I remember 4...Ne7 from an old beginner's book ("Play Chess in 30 Minutes").  It had an illustrative game which went 5. Nxe5 c6 6. Nc4 ("A noble try, but it shouldn't work") cb 7. Nd6#.
  
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #13 - 11/10/14 at 14:51:55
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For those who like to set opening traps or even play obscure ideas, how about this one.



winning the e5 Knight. Black's idea is to transfer the c6 Knight to g6. It was popular when they used to play the Berlin a hundred years ago or more and there are a number of examples over the last fifteen years. The late Tony Miles was one of the earliest to re-explore it back in 1997.

Whether Anand will give it a go against Carlsen remains to be seen. Presumably not.

Needless to say there are about half a dozen victims recorded in the databases.
  
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trw
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #12 - 05/13/11 at 03:09:26
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Keano wrote on 05/12/11 at 23:25:03:
I think trw meant that because I like 4.d3 he'd like to play me - didnt take it any other way myself anyhow.

And I absolutely didn't mean it any other way. It was NOT intended as an insult.
  
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Keano
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #11 - 05/12/11 at 23:25:03
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I think trw meant that because I like 4.d3 he'd like to play me - didnt take it any other way myself anyhow.

There is definitely a relation with some of the other systems you mentioned there - the Italian with d3 could be viewed as some type of pre-configuration, and there are in fact actual transpositions from 5.d3 Spanish games and 2 Knights defence with d3.
I've recently also changed my opinion of the Modern Italian with d3 and now believe its a very safe and yet dangerous system for the White player, so perhaps this influences me in picking 4.d3 against the Berlin. To claim something like "easy equality" is a bit of a push in my view, even if the verdict is coming from Tony!
  
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #10 - 05/12/11 at 21:44:03
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Take it easy, trw.  It's about the chess, not about what kind of person Keano is.

I must admit that I myself don't credit this business about what a strong move 4.d3 is, Kramnik's pronouncements notwithstanding.  Believe that if you want, but if that were true, sheesh, we should not be playing 1...e5 because it plays right into the dread d3 Spanish after, for example, 3...a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3!  (or 4...d6 5.d3!).  You can reason by analogy and conclude that if the d3 Spanish is good for White, the d3 Italian should be one hell of a winning system, and so should the Four Knights with that pawn sitting pretty on d3.  The Ponzi, the Scotch and the KG are strategic jokes because White's d-pawn belongs on d3, not d4!  And what a colossal mistake to play 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4?!.  Tut, the optimal path is 3.Bc4 and 4.d3!  And come to think of it, why play 1.d4?! when the chance to play the overpowering d3 Spanish is on the board? 

I will concede that White keeps his tempo after 4.d3.  That's about it, so far as I can see, and the tempo loses most of its utilty.  I can see this as a good practical choice for a player who likes maneuvering and wants to avoid opening the position.   But if it's good theoretically then we can stand chess on its head.
  

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trw
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #9 - 05/12/11 at 19:46:21
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Keano wrote on 05/12/11 at 16:38:57:
And I could not disagree more.

you're the type of person I love to have black against. You make my day Smiley
  
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Keano
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #8 - 05/12/11 at 16:38:57
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And I could not disagree more.
  
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trw
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #7 - 04/07/11 at 16:36:47
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/06/11 at 11:54:19:
ahammel wrote on 04/05/11 at 04:14:41:
I haven't been able to find much in the way of theory, though. Are there any important resources I should know about?

Well, there is plenty of material in the 1 e4 e5 section on the main site, of course, I'm surprised that no-one mentioned this! Roll Eyes
Actually, I play 3...Nf6 ONLY if I think my opponent plays 4 d3, as I consider it a mistake, allowing Black easy equality. Wink


I could not agree more.
  
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #6 - 04/07/11 at 14:58:45
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Volodya also said that if he knew he would face nothing but the Berlin, he would play nothing but 1. e4.
  
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #5 - 04/07/11 at 14:39:39
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/06/11 at 11:54:19:
Actually, I play 3...Nf6 ONLY if I think my opponent plays 4 d3, as I consider it a mistake, allowing Black easy equality. Wink


Yeah, I know it's probably equal, but Volodya Kramnik (for one) has spent a career proving that White doesn't get much out of the main line Berlin either. Given the choice between an equal position where I'm comfortable with the strategy and a position where I don't know what I'm doing but maybe have a minuscule theoretical advantage, I'll take the former every time.

Ametanoitos wrote on 04/06/11 at 12:17:56:
Actually i believe that the 5.Re1 variation is much more critical if you want to play for a slight advantage while avoiding the Berlin Endgame. White plays Bf1 and d4-d5 is he has the chance. These positions look a bit better for White at present.


Really? 5...Nd6 6. Nxe5 Be7 7. Bf1 Nxe5 8. Rxe5 0-0 9. d4 Bf6 10. Re1 Re8 and I don't see that White has much of an edge. Black's N is awkwardly developed, I suppose, but it doesn't look like anything to write home about. Am I wrong about that, or maybe there's an improvement for White somewhere?
  
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #4 - 04/06/11 at 12:17:56
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Yes, Carlsen- Anand, Bilbao 2010 and Anand-Aronian, Amber 2011 are two examples where Black has easy equality. Actually i believe that the 5.Re1 variation is much more critical if you want to play for a slight advantage while avoiding the Berlin Endgame. White plays Bf1 and d4-d5 is he has the chance. These positions look a bit better for White at present.
  
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #3 - 04/06/11 at 11:54:19
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ahammel wrote on 04/05/11 at 04:14:41:
I haven't been able to find much in the way of theory, though. Are there any important resources I should know about?

Well, there is plenty of material in the 1 e4 e5 section on the main site, of course, I'm surprised that no-one mentioned this! Roll Eyes
Actually, I play 3...Nf6 ONLY if I think my opponent plays 4 d3, as I consider it a mistake, allowing Black easy equality. Wink
  
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #2 - 04/05/11 at 15:01:07
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TN wrote on 04/05/11 at 04:23:28:
John Cox's 'The Berlin Wall' and the recent Yearbook survey on 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 immediately spring to mind.

4.Nc3, transposing to the Four Knights, isn't a bad anti-Berlin either.


Cheers, I'll track those down.

I've considered 4.Nc3, but 4...Nd4 looks like a pretty strong disincentive to me. I find that I get more typically Spanish play out of 4. d3.
  
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Re: The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
Reply #1 - 04/05/11 at 04:23:28
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ahammel wrote on 04/05/11 at 04:14:41:
I've been using 4.d3 as a way of avoiding the main line Berlin theory (and boredom). It's been fairly popular among the elites lately (Carlsen, Anand, Akopian, Shirov, Svidler and Karjakin have all used it), so I figure it's probably pretty good. I haven't been able to find much in the way of theory, though. Are there any important resources I should know about?


John Cox's 'The Berlin Wall' and the recent Yearbook survey on 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 immediately spring to mind.

4.Nc3, transposing to the Four Knights, isn't a bad anti-Berlin either.
  

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The 4.d3 anti-Berlin
04/05/11 at 04:14:41
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I've been using 4.d3 as a way of avoiding the main line Berlin theory (and boredom). It's been fairly popular among the elites lately (Carlsen, Anand, Akopian, Shirov, Svidler and Karjakin have all used it), so I figure it's probably pretty good. I haven't been able to find much in the way of theory, though. Are there any important resources I should know about?
  
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