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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Simple answer to BDG (Read 19913 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #31 - 05/06/11 at 18:57:07
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walkingterrapin wrote on 05/06/11 at 17:30:52:
5. Bc4 e5
6. Ne4 ed
7. Ne2  after that black has alot of choices


After 6.Nxe4, Black has the strong 6...Nxe4 7.fxe4 Qh4+ winning.
  
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walkingterrapin
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #30 - 05/06/11 at 17:30:52
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5. Bc4 e5
6. Ne4 ed
7. Ne2  after that black has alot of choices
  
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MNb
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #29 - 05/06/11 at 15:32:56
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I'm sorry, your post doesn't make much sense. What exactly do you want White to play after 4...Nbd7 5.Bc4 e5? And there is Nb6 too.
  

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walkingterrapin
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #28 - 05/06/11 at 15:13:05
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The solution for white against 4.......Nbd7 has to be 5. Bc4 if black continues and plays 5.......e5.  White can play either 6.  Ne4 or maybe 6. Be3?!  but the latter option seems dubious and black should be able to simplify easily. 

So 6. Ne4 i guess black is thinking de then hit the queen with Bc5 however i think white should try instead of taking the the queen..............6. Ne4 de 7. Ne2 if black continue 7.......c5 i think she will have problems completing her development after some combination of 0-0, b4 or c3 from white.  best is probably 7.......Bb4+ ..............

Thoughts?
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #27 - 04/28/11 at 10:58:27
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(4...h6) 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.d5 Ne5 7.Bb3 is problematic because of 7...e6 8.fxe4 exd5. 

5.Bf4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4 7.Qd3 0-0 causes your typical attacking BDG player a few problems, as I would normally suggest long castling and aiming for a tactical middlegame, but for instance 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 e5 is awkward (10.dxe5 Qxd3 11.cxd3 Ng4 and if 12.Rg1 then 12...g5 13.Bg3 Ne3 and Black has exchanged the queens and has good play).  Rybka quite likes continuations like 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.0-0-0 Bxc3 10.bxc3 Qe7, but intuitively I wouldn't feel comfortable in an opposite-sides castling position with such a draughty king, even though White does have a strong centre.  Short castling is also possible, e.g. 9.Be2 Bd7 10.0-0 and White might be a shade better because of the strong centre and half-open f-file but Black has plenty of scope for well-timed pawn breaks.

4...a6 is less of a problem as after 5.Bf4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4 7.Qd3 0-0 White can go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 and here 9...e5 isn't as strong for after 10.fxe5 Qxd3 11.cxd3 Ng4 12.Rg1 Black doesn't have the well-timed ...g5 and White gets the initiative in the queenless middlegame, so Black may be best off with a continuation like 9...Qe7 10.e5 Nd5 11.Nxd5 exd5, when an attacking race may follow.
  
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #26 - 04/27/11 at 14:18:58
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SWJediknight wrote on 04/27/11 at 13:34:39:
Yes, the problem is that after 5.fxe4 e5 6.Nf3 exd4 White cannot play 7.Bc4 because the c3-knight hangs, and 7.Nxd4 Bb4 is poor for White- all of this is also quite familiar from the 4...c6 5.fxe4 e5 line.  After 5.fxe4 e5, probably best is 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Ng4 8.Nd5 Kd8 9.Ke2 Nxe5, when there is still some play in the position but chances are roughly equal. 5.Nxe4 is well met by 5...e5 forcing simplification, e.g. 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Nxe4 8.fxe4 Nc6 or 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.dxe5 Qxe5+ when White has no good alternative to 8.Qe2 (Black might have better, but this line would be enough to dissuade me from playing 5.Nxe4- the same line also exists after 4...c6 5.Nxe4).

I think White's best waiting move in this position is 5.Bf4 (5.Bc4, which is best against 4...c6, is dubious against 4...h6 due to 5...Nc6) intending 5...Nc6 6.d5 and 5...Nd5 6.Nxd5 Qxd5 7.c4, and 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 when Bf4 is probably more useful than ...h6.  I don't think White really has much, if any, advantage here, but at least White avoids a quick queen swap without disadvantage.


Against 5.Bf4, I intended 5..e6 which I thought would offer decent counterplay after 6.fxe4 Bb4 7.Qd3 0-0. My idea was to delay exf3 until White has wasted a move with a3. If 6.a3 here though, 6..Nd5 may be even better.

Against 5.Bc4, I analyzed 5..e6 as well, but maybe your 5..Nc6 is strong. What do you intend against 6.d5? I thought White's space advantage and development might offer compensation after 6..Ne5 7.Bb3 exf3 8.Nxf3.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #25 - 04/27/11 at 13:34:39
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Yes, the problem is that after 5.fxe4 e5 6.Nf3 exd4 White cannot play 7.Bc4 because the c3-knight hangs, and 7.Nxd4 Bb4 is poor for White- all of this is also quite familiar from the 4...c6 5.fxe4 e5 line.  After 5.fxe4 e5, probably best is 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Ng4 8.Nd5 Kd8 9.Ke2 Nxe5, when there is still some play in the position but chances are roughly equal. 5.Nxe4 is well met by 5...e5 forcing simplification, e.g. 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Nxe4 8.fxe4 Nc6 or 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.dxe5 Qxe5+ when White has no good alternative to 8.Qe2 (Black might have better, but this line would be enough to dissuade me from playing 5.Nxe4- the same line also exists after 4...c6 5.Nxe4).

I think White's best waiting move in this position is 5.Bf4 (5.Bc4, which is best against 4...c6, is dubious against 4...h6 due to 5...Nc6) intending 5...Nc6 6.d5 and 5...Nd5 6.Nxd5 Qxd5 7.c4, and 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 when Bf4 is probably more useful than ...h6.  I don't think White really has much, if any, advantage here, but at least White avoids a quick queen swap without disadvantage.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #24 - 04/27/11 at 12:14:17
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I think the arrow is correct.
I agree that this is a little better for Black. It looks very similar to 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 dxe4 4.fxe4 e5 5.Nf3 exd4 6.Qxd4? (6.Bc4 is much better) Qxd4 7.Nxd4. Having the pawn still on c7 can't be disadvantageous.
  

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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #23 - 04/27/11 at 12:02:07
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Ok, thanks. I didn't think I could still use that database but it seems to work. I can't seem to copy and paste the moves though.

I found the game Milde, L (1880) - Dehaybe, A (1829), chessfriend.com 2003 and it was a queenless middlegame with 5.fxe4 e5 6.Nf3 exd4 7.Qxd4 Qxd4 8.Nxd4 where I would rather be Black.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

(It's Black to move here, so I don't think the arrow is pointing in the right direction. Sorry, it's my first time doing a diagram.)
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #22 - 04/27/11 at 05:10:37
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Chesslive.de database does.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #21 - 04/26/11 at 16:47:10
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Gambit wrote on 04/26/11 at 16:30:20:
Regarding 4...h6, a single example does exist. It is the game Lars Milde - A. Dehaybe, Chessfriend.com email correspondence, 2008. White won that game.


One game. Wow. Do you have it? Smiley
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #20 - 04/26/11 at 16:30:20
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Regarding 4...h6, a single example does exist. It is the game Lars Milde - A. Dehaybe, Chessfriend.com email correspondence, 2008. White won that game.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #19 - 04/26/11 at 16:10:21
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TN wrote on 04/26/11 at 10:51:20:
I wanted to claim that I invented the Goose Counter-Gambit with 4...a6. But it's already been played twice. 5.fxe4 e5 6.de5 Qd1 7.Kd1 Ng4 is equal, with ...a6 proving quite useful as 8.Nd5 is now met by 8...Ra7! with equality.

If Black can just equalise easily with moves like 4...a6 and 4...h6 then it makes one wonder why the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit is considered dangerous.


Of course, I think it's objectively strongest to simply accept, but what I love about these continuations is that objectively White's best option is probably 5.Nxe4, which undercuts all of White's macho pretensions. I looked at some sample a3 waiting move lines last night and I think Black simply gets improved versions of the accepted lines. The h6 move is actually quite useful! On the other hand, a3 is nearly always weakening if White attempts plans with queenside castling. (For example, see the lines from Buecker's analysis on 5..Bf5 6.Bd3 in this thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1242131583/28 )

I think the BDG is all about fear. It takes many different forms from passive defense to erroneous moralization, but the impact is mainly psychological in my opinion. Theoretical equality is OK with many BDG players because they know they can still cheat their opponents. This is one reason why I think it's nice to have to have a psychological response that turns the tables.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #18 - 04/26/11 at 10:51:20
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I wanted to claim that I invented the Goose Counter-Gambit with 4...a6. But it's already been played twice. 5.fxe4 e5 6.de5 Qd1 7.Kd1 Ng4 is equal, with ...a6 proving quite useful as 8.Nd5 is now met by 8...Ra7! with equality.

If Black can just equalise easily with moves like 4...a6 and 4...h6 then it makes one wonder why the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit is considered dangerous.
  

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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #17 - 04/26/11 at 06:24:46
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Glenn Snow wrote on 04/26/11 at 03:43:11:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 04/26/11 at 00:35:01:
I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.


I actually think 4...h6 is playable for Black.  Part of me wonders why I started the thread in the first place though.  Despite having played the BDG in countless blitz games I'm rather skeptical of it's soundness.  For the record I think the Bogo is the toughest defense.  All of the old tries seem to be inadequate and I don't think the "Long Bogo" is sufficient either.  However, if someone wants to discuss this further we should start a new thread or maybe there's already one on this variation.


My feeling is that it is playable also, despite its weakening appearance. 5..Bf5 and 5..e6 are the most appealing accepted variations to me. I don't really consider the BDG seriously for my repertoire, partly because I do not allow it with the move orders I use (which has nothing to do with the BDG - I just don't play 1..d5).

Ideas behind 4..h6:

1) It offers counterattacking possibilities after 5.fxe4 e5 or 5.Bc4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4. I mentioned these earlier. I didn't see an advantage for White, and it actually seemed like there was some danger for White in these lines.

2) If White plays the waiting game as well with a move like a3, Black can consider accepting with exf3. If this is the best White has, I am not entirely sure the exchange a3, h6 is entirely in White's favor. For instance, 5.Bc4 e6 6.a3 exf3 and now White is committed to Bc4 when many BDG players would prefer Bd3 in the Euwe. If 5.a3 exf3 6.Nxf3, Black could consider 6..Bf5 when h6 might have its plusses in comparision with the Gunderam. For instance, maybe it renders some of the ideas with g4-g5 less effective. Another funny possibility: 5.a3 c6 (another waiting move!) 6.Bc4 exf3 7.Nxf3 Bf5 and Black has cut out the "Alchemy" plan with Ng5. There are a few differences that need to be considered in determining whether h6 is beneficial or detrimental. If 4..h6 cuts out some of the more dangerous lines, maybe it is not as weakening as it appears.

I am not certain of the answers to these questions, but I did not see anything really convincing in White's favor. I don't really see this move catching on either, since it looks horrible and the reasoning behind the move is a bit convoluted. Such is the birth of the Lolwut Defense.

The funny thing is that I have seen a lot of odd moves in BDG literature, yet I have seen no evidence that this move has even been considered.
  
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