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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Simple answer to BDG (Read 20280 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #16 - 04/26/11 at 05:51:52
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Gambit wrote on 04/26/11 at 04:15:57:
Glenn Snow wrote on 04/26/11 at 03:43:11:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 04/26/11 at 00:35:01:
I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.


I actually think 4...h6 is playable for Black.  Part of me wonders why I started the thread in the first place though.  Despite having played the BDG in countless blitz games I'm rather skeptical of it's soundness.  For the record I think the Bogo is the toughest defense.  All of the old tries seem to be inadequate and I don't think the "Long Bogo" is sufficient either.  However, if someone wants to discuss this further we should start a new thread or maybe there's already one on this variation.


Really? What does 4...h6 do except weaken the Kingside  here? As for the Bogoljubow Defense, I won some nice games with the Studier-Zilbermints Attack, 5...g6 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 h3! Methinks you are too much of a pessimist, Glenn.


I think the main idea was a waiting move that stopped Bg5 but see the earlier post on it.  As for the Bogo there are certainly plenty of pitfalls for Black to navigate but I think from a strict theoretical perspective with both sides playing perfect chess, White comes up short of comp.  Having said that, I wouldn't be shocked to find out I was wrong, it's just the realist in me wants to see the proof.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #15 - 04/26/11 at 04:15:57
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Glenn Snow wrote on 04/26/11 at 03:43:11:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 04/26/11 at 00:35:01:
I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.


I actually think 4...h6 is playable for Black.  Part of me wonders why I started the thread in the first place though.  Despite having played the BDG in countless blitz games I'm rather skeptical of it's soundness.  For the record I think the Bogo is the toughest defense.  All of the old tries seem to be inadequate and I don't think the "Long Bogo" is sufficient either.  However, if someone wants to discuss this further we should start a new thread or maybe there's already one on this variation.


Really? What does 4...h6 do except weaken the Kingside  here? As for the Bogoljubow Defense, I won some nice games with the Studier-Zilbermints Attack, 5...g6 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 h3! Methinks you are too much of a pessimist, Glenn.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #14 - 04/26/11 at 03:43:11
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ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 04/26/11 at 00:35:01:
I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.


I actually think 4...h6 is playable for Black.  Part of me wonders why I started the thread in the first place though.  Despite having played the BDG in countless blitz games I'm rather skeptical of it's soundness.  For the record I think the Bogo is the toughest defense.  All of the old tries seem to be inadequate and I don't think the "Long Bogo" is sufficient either.  However, if someone wants to discuss this further we should start a new thread or maybe there's already one on this variation.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #13 - 04/26/11 at 00:35:01
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I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #12 - 04/24/11 at 17:49:16
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MNb wrote on 04/24/11 at 13:30:47:
You better analyse the complications well after 7.e5 Nd5 8.Qg4 Nxc3 9.Qxg7.


hehe, I was actually analyzing that line last night! 9..Qh4+ looked almost winning to me, but I didn't use a computer to check. It's not entirely clear to me now, but maybe Black is good? e.g. 10.Kf1 Nd1 11.Qxh8+ Kd7 12.g3 Qxd4 13.Qf6 Qxc4+ 14.Ne2 Qxc2 15.Qxf7+ Be7 16.Bxh6 Nxb2 17.Nf4 Qc4+ 18.Kg2 Nc6 19.Bf8 Qc2+ 20.Kh3 Qf5+ 21.Qxf5 exf5 with two pieces for a rook.

Maybe not bad for a marginal line within a marginal line. Smiley
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #11 - 04/24/11 at 13:30:47
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You better analyse the complications well after 7.e5 Nd5 8.Qg4 Nxc3 9.Qxg7.
  

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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #10 - 04/24/11 at 06:36:29
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Nice. 5.Bf4 e6 already looks like a lame Veresov. I'd take Black anyday there. 5.fxe4 is best I think (just an equal game), when 8.Bg5 seems more challenging to me after the queen exchange.

It's not the most ambitious line, but if it compels White to play a move like 5.Bf4, it's a great psychological choice for practical play.

An additional thought: 4..Nbd7 cuts the connection between the queens, making 5.fxe4 less of a problem than after 4..c6 where 5.fxe4?! e5! is favorable for Black. This gave me an idea. Has anyone tried 4..h6? It may seem silly, but it serves as prophylaxis against Bg5 and asks White a question. What is his best move? For instance, 5.Bc4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4 7.Qd3 0-0 9.Nf3 c5 looks quite playable to me. Just a funny idea I had to taunt the BDG. "How good is your opening when you can't even get an advantage against the slothful 4.h6?!"

Really though, I don't see a problem with it yet. And you can't call it "chicken", since 4..h6 is clearly a "matador" non-developing move that avoids the equal queenless middlegame with 4..Nbd7. Wink

(Does everything need to be censored? It's frustrating when reading a thread.)
« Last Edit: 04/24/11 at 08:02:56 by ChevyBanginStyle »  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #9 - 04/20/11 at 17:54:21
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Jupp53 wrote on 04/19/11 at 21:21:32:
Some questions:

- How comes the c6 - Kc7 remark from the first post? Looking into it the following line seems more appropriate to me. It's the kind of equality I like as black player:
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 Nbd7 (so far the theme of the topic)
5. fxe4 e5 6. dxe5 Nxe5 7.Qxd8+ Kxd8 8. Bf4 Bd6 9. O-O-O Ke7 10. Bg3 Neg4 11. Bxd6+ cxd6 12. Rd2 Be6 13. Nf3 Rac8

- Is 5.Bf4 e3 6.Bxe3 really equal?

Some lines I tried with Nb6 lead to a free game for white with more space. The same happened with e6. In a test game against Rybka4 the engine played 6. ... Nb6 7.Qd2 g6. Maybe all this stuff is equal. But at my level it's easier to play with white.


Your variation with ...Ke7 looks fine to me too.  When I had this on Houdini it seemed to do a lot of the ...c6, ...Kc7 stuff.

I think both sides need to be a little careful in the ...e3 line but I'd still argue it's basically equal.  I actually recommended 5...e6, after 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Nbd7 5.Bf4, more highly than 5...e3 when I think White has to be precise to maintain equality.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #8 - 04/19/11 at 21:21:32
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Some questions:

- How comes the c6 - Kc7 remark from the first post? Looking into it the following line seems more appropriate to me. It's the kind of equality I like as black player:
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 Nbd7 (so far the theme of the topic)
5. fxe4 e5 6. dxe5 Nxe5 7.Qxd8+ Kxd8 8. Bf4 Bd6 9. O-O-O Ke7 10. Bg3 Neg4 11. Bxd6+ cxd6 12. Rd2 Be6 13. Nf3 Rac8

- Is 5.Bf4 e3 6.Bxe3 really equal?

Some lines I tried with Nb6 lead to a free game for white with more space. The same happened with e6. In a test game against Rybka4 the engine played 6. ... Nb6 7.Qd2 g6. Maybe all this stuff is equal. But at my level it's easier to play with white.
  

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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #7 - 04/19/11 at 17:17:19
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Meat wrote on 04/12/11 at 12:05:14:
After 5. Bf4 indeed 5...e3 looks very convincing to me. I don't see anything but to take the pawn with the bishop at some point and then we have a BDG declined (1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Sc3 Sf6 4. f3 e3) where white lost a tempo.
I think I might add this line to my repertoire as an easy equalizer that gives Black a good game without having to learn much theory against an opening that he rarely faces.

Or is there a way for white to improve and stir up some trouble after 5...e3?


It's still a game but it looks pretty equal to me.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #6 - 04/12/11 at 12:05:14
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After 5. Bf4 indeed 5...e3 looks very convincing to me. I don't see anything but to take the pawn with the bishop at some point and then we have a BDG declined (1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Sc3 Sf6 4. f3 e3) where white lost a tempo.
I think I might add this line to my repertoire as an easy equalizer that gives Black a good game without having to learn much theory against an opening that he rarely faces.

Or is there a way for white to improve and stir up some trouble after 5...e3?
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #5 - 04/07/11 at 13:18:55
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[1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Nbd7]
There is also 5.Bg5 of course. Black has several reasonable replies, but I quite like 5...c6 transposing to a line of the Veresov where Black scores well: 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Nbd7 4.f3 c6 5.e4 dxe4, eg 6.fxe4 e5 7.dxe5 Qa5.
  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #4 - 04/06/11 at 16:42:02
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Gambit wrote on 04/06/11 at 16:30:01:
Yeah, [sidestepping] all the fun! Correct is 5 Bf4! stopping [this] line.


As I mentioned in the previous post, I too think 5.Bf4 is White's best bet at creating complications, but I'm still not overly enthused about the 5...e3 and 5...e6 variations if Black continues his "chickening out" policy.
« Last Edit: 04/07/11 at 14:52:19 by Markovich »  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #3 - 04/06/11 at 16:30:01
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Yeah, [sidestepping] all the fun! Correct is 5 Bf4! stopping [this] line.

[No more about chickens, Lev -- Markovich]
« Last Edit: 04/07/11 at 14:52:42 by Markovich »  
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Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #2 - 04/06/11 at 10:18:38
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linksspringer wrote on 04/06/11 at 09:40:56:
Interesting! What do you think about 5.Bf4 to prevent ...e5?
At first glance it seems like a good way to maintain chances of an attacking/unclear game.


That's probably the best try for that type of game but Black has a number of tries.  For starters, there is the annoying 5...e3, when of course Bxe3 gives a variation where Black has already played ...Nbd7.  Another try is 5...e6 6.fxe4 Bb4 which looks OK.  Still if White wants to avoid the 5.fxe4 e5! variation then he should probably try this.
  
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