Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Simple answer to BDG (Read 20209 times)
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1717
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #31 - 05/06/11 at 18:57:07
Post Tools
walkingterrapin wrote on 05/06/11 at 17:30:52:
5. Bc4 e5
6. Ne4 ed
7. Ne2  after that black has alot of choices


After 6.Nxe4, Black has the strong 6...Nxe4 7.fxe4 Qh4+ winning.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
walkingterrapin
Junior Member
**
Offline


Why play the Colle when
you can play 1.e4!!!!!!!!!

Posts: 98
Location: NC
Joined: 07/04/10
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #30 - 05/06/11 at 17:30:52
Post Tools
5. Bc4 e5
6. Ne4 ed
7. Ne2  after that black has alot of choices
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10536
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #29 - 05/06/11 at 15:32:56
Post Tools
I'm sorry, your post doesn't make much sense. What exactly do you want White to play after 4...Nbd7 5.Bc4 e5? And there is Nb6 too.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
walkingterrapin
Junior Member
**
Offline


Why play the Colle when
you can play 1.e4!!!!!!!!!

Posts: 98
Location: NC
Joined: 07/04/10
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #28 - 05/06/11 at 15:13:05
Post Tools
The solution for white against 4.......Nbd7 has to be 5. Bc4 if black continues and plays 5.......e5.  White can play either 6.  Ne4 or maybe 6. Be3?!  but the latter option seems dubious and black should be able to simplify easily. 

So 6. Ne4 i guess black is thinking de then hit the queen with Bc5 however i think white should try instead of taking the the queen..............6. Ne4 de 7. Ne2 if black continue 7.......c5 i think she will have problems completing her development after some combination of 0-0, b4 or c3 from white.  best is probably 7.......Bb4+ ..............

Thoughts?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #27 - 04/28/11 at 10:58:27
Post Tools
(4...h6) 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.d5 Ne5 7.Bb3 is problematic because of 7...e6 8.fxe4 exd5. 

5.Bf4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4 7.Qd3 0-0 causes your typical attacking BDG player a few problems, as I would normally suggest long castling and aiming for a tactical middlegame, but for instance 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 e5 is awkward (10.dxe5 Qxd3 11.cxd3 Ng4 and if 12.Rg1 then 12...g5 13.Bg3 Ne3 and Black has exchanged the queens and has good play).  Rybka quite likes continuations like 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.0-0-0 Bxc3 10.bxc3 Qe7, but intuitively I wouldn't feel comfortable in an opposite-sides castling position with such a draughty king, even though White does have a strong centre.  Short castling is also possible, e.g. 9.Be2 Bd7 10.0-0 and White might be a shade better because of the strong centre and half-open f-file but Black has plenty of scope for well-timed pawn breaks.

4...a6 is less of a problem as after 5.Bf4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4 7.Qd3 0-0 White can go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 and here 9...e5 isn't as strong for after 10.fxe5 Qxd3 11.cxd3 Ng4 12.Rg1 Black doesn't have the well-timed ...g5 and White gets the initiative in the queenless middlegame, so Black may be best off with a continuation like 9...Qe7 10.e5 Nd5 11.Nxd5 exd5, when an attacking race may follow.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #26 - 04/27/11 at 14:18:58
Post Tools
SWJediknight wrote on 04/27/11 at 13:34:39:
Yes, the problem is that after 5.fxe4 e5 6.Nf3 exd4 White cannot play 7.Bc4 because the c3-knight hangs, and 7.Nxd4 Bb4 is poor for White- all of this is also quite familiar from the 4...c6 5.fxe4 e5 line.  After 5.fxe4 e5, probably best is 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Ng4 8.Nd5 Kd8 9.Ke2 Nxe5, when there is still some play in the position but chances are roughly equal. 5.Nxe4 is well met by 5...e5 forcing simplification, e.g. 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Nxe4 8.fxe4 Nc6 or 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.dxe5 Qxe5+ when White has no good alternative to 8.Qe2 (Black might have better, but this line would be enough to dissuade me from playing 5.Nxe4- the same line also exists after 4...c6 5.Nxe4).

I think White's best waiting move in this position is 5.Bf4 (5.Bc4, which is best against 4...c6, is dubious against 4...h6 due to 5...Nc6) intending 5...Nc6 6.d5 and 5...Nd5 6.Nxd5 Qxd5 7.c4, and 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 when Bf4 is probably more useful than ...h6.  I don't think White really has much, if any, advantage here, but at least White avoids a quick queen swap without disadvantage.


Against 5.Bf4, I intended 5..e6 which I thought would offer decent counterplay after 6.fxe4 Bb4 7.Qd3 0-0. My idea was to delay exf3 until White has wasted a move with a3. If 6.a3 here though, 6..Nd5 may be even better.

Against 5.Bc4, I analyzed 5..e6 as well, but maybe your 5..Nc6 is strong. What do you intend against 6.d5? I thought White's space advantage and development might offer compensation after 6..Ne5 7.Bb3 exf3 8.Nxf3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 900
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #25 - 04/27/11 at 13:34:39
Post Tools
Yes, the problem is that after 5.fxe4 e5 6.Nf3 exd4 White cannot play 7.Bc4 because the c3-knight hangs, and 7.Nxd4 Bb4 is poor for White- all of this is also quite familiar from the 4...c6 5.fxe4 e5 line.  After 5.fxe4 e5, probably best is 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Ng4 8.Nd5 Kd8 9.Ke2 Nxe5, when there is still some play in the position but chances are roughly equal. 5.Nxe4 is well met by 5...e5 forcing simplification, e.g. 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Nxe4 8.fxe4 Nc6 or 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.dxe5 Qxe5+ when White has no good alternative to 8.Qe2 (Black might have better, but this line would be enough to dissuade me from playing 5.Nxe4- the same line also exists after 4...c6 5.Nxe4).

I think White's best waiting move in this position is 5.Bf4 (5.Bc4, which is best against 4...c6, is dubious against 4...h6 due to 5...Nc6) intending 5...Nc6 6.d5 and 5...Nd5 6.Nxd5 Qxd5 7.c4, and 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 when Bf4 is probably more useful than ...h6.  I don't think White really has much, if any, advantage here, but at least White avoids a quick queen swap without disadvantage.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10536
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #24 - 04/27/11 at 12:14:17
Post Tools
I think the arrow is correct.
I agree that this is a little better for Black. It looks very similar to 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 dxe4 4.fxe4 e5 5.Nf3 exd4 6.Qxd4? (6.Bc4 is much better) Qxd4 7.Nxd4. Having the pawn still on c7 can't be disadvantageous.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #23 - 04/27/11 at 12:02:07
Post Tools
Ok, thanks. I didn't think I could still use that database but it seems to work. I can't seem to copy and paste the moves though.

I found the game Milde, L (1880) - Dehaybe, A (1829), chessfriend.com 2003 and it was a queenless middlegame with 5.fxe4 e5 6.Nf3 exd4 7.Qxd4 Qxd4 8.Nxd4 where I would rather be Black.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

(It's Black to move here, so I don't think the arrow is pointing in the right direction. Sorry, it's my first time doing a diagram.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1388
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #22 - 04/27/11 at 05:10:37
Post Tools
Chesslive.de database does.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #21 - 04/26/11 at 16:47:10
Post Tools
Gambit wrote on 04/26/11 at 16:30:20:
Regarding 4...h6, a single example does exist. It is the game Lars Milde - A. Dehaybe, Chessfriend.com email correspondence, 2008. White won that game.


One game. Wow. Do you have it? Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1388
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #20 - 04/26/11 at 16:30:20
Post Tools
Regarding 4...h6, a single example does exist. It is the game Lars Milde - A. Dehaybe, Chessfriend.com email correspondence, 2008. White won that game.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #19 - 04/26/11 at 16:10:21
Post Tools
TN wrote on 04/26/11 at 10:51:20:
I wanted to claim that I invented the Goose Counter-Gambit with 4...a6. But it's already been played twice. 5.fxe4 e5 6.de5 Qd1 7.Kd1 Ng4 is equal, with ...a6 proving quite useful as 8.Nd5 is now met by 8...Ra7! with equality.

If Black can just equalise easily with moves like 4...a6 and 4...h6 then it makes one wonder why the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit is considered dangerous.


Of course, I think it's objectively strongest to simply accept, but what I love about these continuations is that objectively White's best option is probably 5.Nxe4, which undercuts all of White's macho pretensions. I looked at some sample a3 waiting move lines last night and I think Black simply gets improved versions of the accepted lines. The h6 move is actually quite useful! On the other hand, a3 is nearly always weakening if White attempts plans with queenside castling. (For example, see the lines from Buecker's analysis on 5..Bf5 6.Bd3 in this thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1242131583/28 )

I think the BDG is all about fear. It takes many different forms from passive defense to erroneous moralization, but the impact is mainly psychological in my opinion. Theoretical equality is OK with many BDG players because they know they can still cheat their opponents. This is one reason why I think it's nice to have to have a psychological response that turns the tables.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #18 - 04/26/11 at 10:51:20
Post Tools
I wanted to claim that I invented the Goose Counter-Gambit with 4...a6. But it's already been played twice. 5.fxe4 e5 6.de5 Qd1 7.Kd1 Ng4 is equal, with ...a6 proving quite useful as 8.Nd5 is now met by 8...Ra7! with equality.

If Black can just equalise easily with moves like 4...a6 and 4...h6 then it makes one wonder why the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit is considered dangerous.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #17 - 04/26/11 at 06:24:46
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote on 04/26/11 at 03:43:11:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 04/26/11 at 00:35:01:
I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.


I actually think 4...h6 is playable for Black.  Part of me wonders why I started the thread in the first place though.  Despite having played the BDG in countless blitz games I'm rather skeptical of it's soundness.  For the record I think the Bogo is the toughest defense.  All of the old tries seem to be inadequate and I don't think the "Long Bogo" is sufficient either.  However, if someone wants to discuss this further we should start a new thread or maybe there's already one on this variation.


My feeling is that it is playable also, despite its weakening appearance. 5..Bf5 and 5..e6 are the most appealing accepted variations to me. I don't really consider the BDG seriously for my repertoire, partly because I do not allow it with the move orders I use (which has nothing to do with the BDG - I just don't play 1..d5).

Ideas behind 4..h6:

1) It offers counterattacking possibilities after 5.fxe4 e5 or 5.Bc4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4. I mentioned these earlier. I didn't see an advantage for White, and it actually seemed like there was some danger for White in these lines.

2) If White plays the waiting game as well with a move like a3, Black can consider accepting with exf3. If this is the best White has, I am not entirely sure the exchange a3, h6 is entirely in White's favor. For instance, 5.Bc4 e6 6.a3 exf3 and now White is committed to Bc4 when many BDG players would prefer Bd3 in the Euwe. If 5.a3 exf3 6.Nxf3, Black could consider 6..Bf5 when h6 might have its plusses in comparision with the Gunderam. For instance, maybe it renders some of the ideas with g4-g5 less effective. Another funny possibility: 5.a3 c6 (another waiting move!) 6.Bc4 exf3 7.Nxf3 Bf5 and Black has cut out the "Alchemy" plan with Ng5. There are a few differences that need to be considered in determining whether h6 is beneficial or detrimental. If 4..h6 cuts out some of the more dangerous lines, maybe it is not as weakening as it appears.

I am not certain of the answers to these questions, but I did not see anything really convincing in White's favor. I don't really see this move catching on either, since it looks horrible and the reasoning behind the move is a bit convoluted. Such is the birth of the Lolwut Defense.

The funny thing is that I have seen a lot of odd moves in BDG literature, yet I have seen no evidence that this move has even been considered.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1717
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #16 - 04/26/11 at 05:51:52
Post Tools
Gambit wrote on 04/26/11 at 04:15:57:
Glenn Snow wrote on 04/26/11 at 03:43:11:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 04/26/11 at 00:35:01:
I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.


I actually think 4...h6 is playable for Black.  Part of me wonders why I started the thread in the first place though.  Despite having played the BDG in countless blitz games I'm rather skeptical of it's soundness.  For the record I think the Bogo is the toughest defense.  All of the old tries seem to be inadequate and I don't think the "Long Bogo" is sufficient either.  However, if someone wants to discuss this further we should start a new thread or maybe there's already one on this variation.


Really? What does 4...h6 do except weaken the Kingside  here? As for the Bogoljubow Defense, I won some nice games with the Studier-Zilbermints Attack, 5...g6 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 h3! Methinks you are too much of a pessimist, Glenn.


I think the main idea was a waiting move that stopped Bg5 but see the earlier post on it.  As for the Bogo there are certainly plenty of pitfalls for Black to navigate but I think from a strict theoretical perspective with both sides playing perfect chess, White comes up short of comp.  Having said that, I wouldn't be shocked to find out I was wrong, it's just the realist in me wants to see the proof.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1388
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #15 - 04/26/11 at 04:15:57
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote on 04/26/11 at 03:43:11:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 04/26/11 at 00:35:01:
I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.


I actually think 4...h6 is playable for Black.  Part of me wonders why I started the thread in the first place though.  Despite having played the BDG in countless blitz games I'm rather skeptical of it's soundness.  For the record I think the Bogo is the toughest defense.  All of the old tries seem to be inadequate and I don't think the "Long Bogo" is sufficient either.  However, if someone wants to discuss this further we should start a new thread or maybe there's already one on this variation.


Really? What does 4...h6 do except weaken the Kingside  here? As for the Bogoljubow Defense, I won some nice games with the Studier-Zilbermints Attack, 5...g6 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 h3! Methinks you are too much of a pessimist, Glenn.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1717
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #14 - 04/26/11 at 03:43:11
Post Tools
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 04/26/11 at 00:35:01:
I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.


I actually think 4...h6 is playable for Black.  Part of me wonders why I started the thread in the first place though.  Despite having played the BDG in countless blitz games I'm rather skeptical of it's soundness.  For the record I think the Bogo is the toughest defense.  All of the old tries seem to be inadequate and I don't think the "Long Bogo" is sufficient either.  However, if someone wants to discuss this further we should start a new thread or maybe there's already one on this variation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #13 - 04/26/11 at 00:35:01
Post Tools
I dub 4..h6 the Lolwut Defense to the BDG.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #12 - 04/24/11 at 17:49:16
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 04/24/11 at 13:30:47:
You better analyse the complications well after 7.e5 Nd5 8.Qg4 Nxc3 9.Qxg7.


hehe, I was actually analyzing that line last night! 9..Qh4+ looked almost winning to me, but I didn't use a computer to check. It's not entirely clear to me now, but maybe Black is good? e.g. 10.Kf1 Nd1 11.Qxh8+ Kd7 12.g3 Qxd4 13.Qf6 Qxc4+ 14.Ne2 Qxc2 15.Qxf7+ Be7 16.Bxh6 Nxb2 17.Nf4 Qc4+ 18.Kg2 Nc6 19.Bf8 Qc2+ 20.Kh3 Qf5+ 21.Qxf5 exf5 with two pieces for a rook.

Maybe not bad for a marginal line within a marginal line. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10536
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #11 - 04/24/11 at 13:30:47
Post Tools
You better analyse the complications well after 7.e5 Nd5 8.Qg4 Nxc3 9.Qxg7.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #10 - 04/24/11 at 06:36:29
Post Tools
Nice. 5.Bf4 e6 already looks like a lame Veresov. I'd take Black anyday there. 5.fxe4 is best I think (just an equal game), when 8.Bg5 seems more challenging to me after the queen exchange.

It's not the most ambitious line, but if it compels White to play a move like 5.Bf4, it's a great psychological choice for practical play.

An additional thought: 4..Nbd7 cuts the connection between the queens, making 5.fxe4 less of a problem than after 4..c6 where 5.fxe4?! e5! is favorable for Black. This gave me an idea. Has anyone tried 4..h6? It may seem silly, but it serves as prophylaxis against Bg5 and asks White a question. What is his best move? For instance, 5.Bc4 e6 6.fxe4 Bb4 7.Qd3 0-0 9.Nf3 c5 looks quite playable to me. Just a funny idea I had to taunt the BDG. "How good is your opening when you can't even get an advantage against the slothful 4.h6?!"

Really though, I don't see a problem with it yet. And you can't call it "chicken", since 4..h6 is clearly a "matador" non-developing move that avoids the equal queenless middlegame with 4..Nbd7. Wink

(Does everything need to be censored? It's frustrating when reading a thread.)
« Last Edit: 04/24/11 at 08:02:56 by ChevyBanginStyle »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1717
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #9 - 04/20/11 at 17:54:21
Post Tools
Jupp53 wrote on 04/19/11 at 21:21:32:
Some questions:

- How comes the c6 - Kc7 remark from the first post? Looking into it the following line seems more appropriate to me. It's the kind of equality I like as black player:
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 Nbd7 (so far the theme of the topic)
5. fxe4 e5 6. dxe5 Nxe5 7.Qxd8+ Kxd8 8. Bf4 Bd6 9. O-O-O Ke7 10. Bg3 Neg4 11. Bxd6+ cxd6 12. Rd2 Be6 13. Nf3 Rac8

- Is 5.Bf4 e3 6.Bxe3 really equal?

Some lines I tried with Nb6 lead to a free game for white with more space. The same happened with e6. In a test game against Rybka4 the engine played 6. ... Nb6 7.Qd2 g6. Maybe all this stuff is equal. But at my level it's easier to play with white.


Your variation with ...Ke7 looks fine to me too.  When I had this on Houdini it seemed to do a lot of the ...c6, ...Kc7 stuff.

I think both sides need to be a little careful in the ...e3 line but I'd still argue it's basically equal.  I actually recommended 5...e6, after 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Nbd7 5.Bf4, more highly than 5...e3 when I think White has to be precise to maintain equality.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jupp53
God Member
*****
Offline


be

Posts: 957
Location: Frankfurt/Main
Joined: 01/04/09
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #8 - 04/19/11 at 21:21:32
Post Tools
Some questions:

- How comes the c6 - Kc7 remark from the first post? Looking into it the following line seems more appropriate to me. It's the kind of equality I like as black player:
1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 Nbd7 (so far the theme of the topic)
5. fxe4 e5 6. dxe5 Nxe5 7.Qxd8+ Kxd8 8. Bf4 Bd6 9. O-O-O Ke7 10. Bg3 Neg4 11. Bxd6+ cxd6 12. Rd2 Be6 13. Nf3 Rac8

- Is 5.Bf4 e3 6.Bxe3 really equal?

Some lines I tried with Nb6 lead to a free game for white with more space. The same happened with e6. In a test game against Rybka4 the engine played 6. ... Nb6 7.Qd2 g6. Maybe all this stuff is equal. But at my level it's easier to play with white.
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1717
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #7 - 04/19/11 at 17:17:19
Post Tools
Meat wrote on 04/12/11 at 12:05:14:
After 5. Bf4 indeed 5...e3 looks very convincing to me. I don't see anything but to take the pawn with the bishop at some point and then we have a BDG declined (1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Sc3 Sf6 4. f3 e3) where white lost a tempo.
I think I might add this line to my repertoire as an easy equalizer that gives Black a good game without having to learn much theory against an opening that he rarely faces.

Or is there a way for white to improve and stir up some trouble after 5...e3?


It's still a game but it looks pretty equal to me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Meat
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 184
Joined: 06/27/06
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #6 - 04/12/11 at 12:05:14
Post Tools
After 5. Bf4 indeed 5...e3 looks very convincing to me. I don't see anything but to take the pawn with the bishop at some point and then we have a BDG declined (1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Sc3 Sf6 4. f3 e3) where white lost a tempo.
I think I might add this line to my repertoire as an easy equalizer that gives Black a good game without having to learn much theory against an opening that he rarely faces.

Or is there a way for white to improve and stir up some trouble after 5...e3?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
linksspringer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 376
Joined: 09/25/07
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #5 - 04/07/11 at 13:18:55
Post Tools
[1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Nbd7]
There is also 5.Bg5 of course. Black has several reasonable replies, but I quite like 5...c6 transposing to a line of the Veresov where Black scores well: 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Nbd7 4.f3 c6 5.e4 dxe4, eg 6.fxe4 e5 7.dxe5 Qa5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1717
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #4 - 04/06/11 at 16:42:02
Post Tools
Gambit wrote on 04/06/11 at 16:30:01:
Yeah, [sidestepping] all the fun! Correct is 5 Bf4! stopping [this] line.


As I mentioned in the previous post, I too think 5.Bf4 is White's best bet at creating complications, but I'm still not overly enthused about the 5...e3 and 5...e6 variations if Black continues his "chickening out" policy.
« Last Edit: 04/07/11 at 14:52:19 by Markovich »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1388
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #3 - 04/06/11 at 16:30:01
Post Tools
Yeah, [sidestepping] all the fun! Correct is 5 Bf4! stopping [this] line.

[No more about chickens, Lev -- Markovich]
« Last Edit: 04/07/11 at 14:52:42 by Markovich »  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1717
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #2 - 04/06/11 at 10:18:38
Post Tools
linksspringer wrote on 04/06/11 at 09:40:56:
Interesting! What do you think about 5.Bf4 to prevent ...e5?
At first glance it seems like a good way to maintain chances of an attacking/unclear game.


That's probably the best try for that type of game but Black has a number of tries.  For starters, there is the annoying 5...e3, when of course Bxe3 gives a variation where Black has already played ...Nbd7.  Another try is 5...e6 6.fxe4 Bb4 which looks OK.  Still if White wants to avoid the 5.fxe4 e5! variation then he should probably try this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
linksspringer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 376
Joined: 09/25/07
Re: Simple answer to BDG
Reply #1 - 04/06/11 at 09:40:56
Post Tools
Interesting! What do you think about 5.Bf4 to prevent ...e5?
At first glance it seems like a good way to maintain chances of an attacking/unclear game.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1717
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Simple answer to BDG
04/06/11 at 04:34:15
Post Tools
For those not inclined to try and refute the gambit there appears to be a decent way to defuse it.

After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Nbd7!?, is an annoying move for the BDG specialist trying to create an attacking or at least unclear game.  For the most part Black just has to remember to play ...e5 and if Qxd8 then to play ...c6 to make way for the King.  There's still some play I suppose but it looks completely equal to me.  I'm interested to see if anyone else has thoughts on this line.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo