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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence) (Read 23351 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #22 - 03/16/18 at 01:07:00
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I did consider 5.f4. Hugh Myers mentioned it in the link, that's why I mentioned it in the PGN I attached. Didn't you already post this same game in a different Nimzowitsch thread?
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #21 - 03/15/18 at 07:22:59
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/15/18 at 02:15:24:
1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. d5 Ne5 5. f3 (This 5.f3 gambit is not convincing if black declines,

You might consider 5.f4 iso 5.f3.

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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #20 - 03/15/18 at 02:15:24
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I saw some analysis from Lorenzo Buttari
http://bdgpages.blogspot.com/2009/01/gambitting-against-nimzovich-defense.html

1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. d5 Ne5 5. f3 (This 5.f3 gambit is not convincing if black declines, but I have won a few games with it as white, so I was interested to follow the analysis when I came across it.) 5... exf3 6. Nxf3 Nxf3+ 7. Qxf3 Nf6 8. Bf4 Bg4 (instead of 8... a6) 9. Bb5+ c6 10. dxc6 Bxf3 11. c7+ (11. cxb7+ Nd7) 11... Qd7 12. Bxd7+ Nxd7 13. gxf3 e5 "the main question is if White's position is worth a pawn" (Hugh Myers).

Wait! Let's look deeper at that parenthetical variation:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* Position after 11. cxb7+ Nd7.

12. gxf3 Rb8 13. Bxb8 Qxb8 14. O-O-O Qxb7 15. Rxd7 (The previous moves were by me, but 15. Rxd7 is by Stockfish, instead of my idea 15. Rd3) 15... Qxb5 16. Nxb5 Kxd7 17. Rd1+ Ke6 18. Nxa7. I call that +/-. Black might be able to draw, but it will not be easy. Later I might get interested in trying to prove a win for white, but that certainly belongs in the endgame sub-board.
  

1Nc6_Buttari.pgn ( 0 KB | 163 Downloads )
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #19 - 03/06/13 at 07:48:59
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Glenn Snow wrote on 02/19/13 at 04:39:06:
Glenn Snow wrote on 10/17/11 at 05:04:29:
After: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (!? or maybe ?!) [u]4.d5 Ne5 6.Bf4 Ng6 7.Bg3 f5 8.Nh3 a6 9.Bc4


I've posted some long variations after this move and it was the most popular and quoted move that I'd seen, however it doesn't appear to be best.  If White instead plays 9.f3!, I now believe he has a comfortable advantage in all variations.  I was only able to find one game with this move where White only drew but he misplayed it fairly early on.  I'm now inclined to give 3...dxe4 the "?!" annotation and would strongly advise anyone wanting to venture this variation to play 3...e6.


Apparently I'm forgetting everything as I get older!  My first post in this thread mentioned 9.f3! and is why I preferred the 7...a6 8.Bc4 f5 move order which I also mentioned there.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #18 - 02/19/13 at 04:39:06
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Glenn Snow wrote on 10/17/11 at 05:04:29:
After: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (!? or maybe ?!) [u]4.d5 Ne5 6.Bf4 Ng6 7.Bg3 f5 8.Nh3 a6 9.Bc4


I've posted some long variations after this move and it was the most popular and quoted move that I'd seen, however it doesn't appear to be best.  If White instead plays 9.f3!, I now believe he has a comfortable advantage in all variations.  I was only able to find one game with this move where White only drew but he misplayed it fairly early on.  I'm now inclined to give 3...dxe4 the "?!" annotation and would strongly advise anyone wanting to venture this variation to play 3...e6.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #17 - 11/30/11 at 15:55:57
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MaSu wrote on 11/19/11 at 15:31:01:
I always play 3.--a6 and at this point, white thinks, that black is a stupid beginner.But after 4.exd5-Nb4 5.Nf3 (5.Bc4-Nf6)-Bf5 and white's position looks very bad after 6.Ld3-Bxd3 7.cxd3-Nxd5. Perhaps 4.a3 is an option, but then 4.--Nf6.
3.--Nf6 is an alternative


Thanks for your interest but the thread is about 3...dxe4 and despite what I wrote above it remains unrefuted (Black can reach equality there too).  I think the only other good move is 3...e6.  Both 3...a6 and 3...Nf6 can be tricky weapons but if White knows what he is doing he should have a comfortable advantage in my opinion.  However, if you want to discuss those moves please start another thread.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #16 - 11/19/11 at 15:31:01
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I always play 3.--a6 and at this point, white thinks, that black is a stupid beginner.But after 4.exd5-Nb4 5.Nf3 (5.Bc4-Nf6)-Bf5 and white's position looks very bad after 6.Ld3-Bxd3 7.cxd3-Nxd5. Perhaps 4.a3 is an option, but then 4.--Nf6.
3.--Nf6 is an alternative
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #15 - 10/17/11 at 05:04:29
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It seems strange to me but an idea from the QGA gave me an idea for White against this variation.  After: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (!? or maybe ?!) 4.d5 Ne5 6.Bf4 Ng6 7.Bg3 a6 7.Bc4 f5 8.Nh3 Nf6, I didn't look at the move 9.Bb3, but it looks interesting.  After 9...h5 (9...b5 10.a4 is one of the ideas) 10.Nf4 Nxf4 11.Bxf4 b5.
If White now plays 12.0-0 it would transpose to a line I mentioned but I'm thinking White should be able to find something better.  Houdini's first three candidate moves, in order, are f3, Qd2 and a4.  Still with unclear play.  Certainly one would have to be brave or foolish to take on the Black position.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #14 - 06/17/11 at 06:02:52
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charlesgalofre wrote on 06/13/11 at 00:50:26:
if your playing the Nimzovich as black, then you must consider:
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.06.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 e5 *

it has very high practical value, and your keeping with your originality.


I suppose I should have mentioned this when this was originally posted, but the title (subject) of the thread is 3...dxe4.  So anything else is off topic.  It's not that I think the move is necessarily the best but it might be and there's no doubt to it still be under-explored.  It has potential to be a real point scorer for someone willing to learn it.

Someone else mentioned that 2.Nf3 is now the main line.  That may be more common these days and is, in my opinion, the real reason why 1....Nc6 isn't more popular.  It's difficult to find a good reply that's also unique to the opening (of course Black could reply 2...e5).  Other threads on the forum cover some of the better tries.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #13 - 06/16/11 at 23:43:42
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You should look at the games of Alex Dunne (of "Check is in the Mail" fame).  He may be the world's authority on this line.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #12 - 06/16/11 at 19:43:47
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Markovich wrote on 06/16/11 at 16:26:16:
Who am I to differ with a GM, but I refuse to believe that Black is OK there.  3...e5 and now 4.dxe5 for starters, and if 4...d4 then 5.Nd5. 

The OP is interesting.  I have nothing specific but I notice that Black has taken on many weaknesses and may have longterm king safety issues.  Maybe Black is OK, but the line smells funny to me.  I have no refutation, but I would probably give first consideration 9.Bb3, e.g. 9...b5 10.a4 or 9...h5 10.Nf4 Nxf4 11.Bxf4 and soon f2-f3.

P.S. There is no reason why this shouldn't be in this part of the board.  In my practice this line comes up via 1.d4 Nc6 2.e4 d5 3.Nc3.

Yes i 've found 9.Bb3! this morning too
  

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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #11 - 06/16/11 at 16:26:16
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Who am I to differ with a GM, but I refuse to believe that Black is OK there.  3...e5 and now 4.dxe5 for starters, and if 4...d4 then 5.Nd5. 

The OP is interesting.  I have nothing specific but I notice that Black has taken on many weaknesses and may have longterm king safety issues.  Maybe Black is OK, but the line smells funny to me.  I have no refutation, but I would probably give first consideration 9.Bb3, e.g. 9...b5 10.a4 or 9...h5 10.Nf4 Nxf4 11.Bxf4 and soon f2-f3.

P.S. There is no reason why this shouldn't be in this part of the board.  In my practice this line comes up via 1.d4 Nc6 2.e4 d5 3.Nc3.
« Last Edit: 06/16/11 at 17:56:31 by Markovich »  

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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #10 - 06/16/11 at 11:35:58
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charlesgalofre wrote on 06/13/11 at 00:50:26:
if your playing the Nimzovich as black, then you must consider:
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.06.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 e5 *

it has very high practical value, and your keeping with your originality.


Jacob Aagaard had a splendid (informative and amusing) article on this line in SOS vol 11 (2009), concluding that Black is OK
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #9 - 06/16/11 at 07:11:31
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Yes very good post in the 'old' main line. Now 2.Nf3 is more popular but i still believe with one is critical.
  

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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #8 - 06/13/11 at 02:07:17
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charlesgalofre wrote on 06/13/11 at 00:50:26:
if your playing the Nimzovich as black, then you must consider:
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.06.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 e5 *

it has very high practical value, and your keeping with your originality.


It's a very interesting variation and has been discussed on this forum before.  It still has high practical value but I believe it's been shown to be dubious against best play.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #7 - 06/13/11 at 00:50:26
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if your playing the Nimzovich as black, then you must consider:
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.06.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 e5 *

it has very high practical value, and your keeping with your originality.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #6 - 06/12/11 at 19:50:25
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/12/11 at 15:51:47:
I'm with TN. The title of this section is "Daring Defences to 1.d4". It would be rather unusual to reach this position from 1.d4. But there is another section that deals nicely with 1.e4... (other) openings.

There are limitations to ECO classifications just as there are to descriptive classifications.


I'd have rather had put it in the "1.e4..." section too but this is the section where this opening is covered by Chesspublishing.  Actually I think it may be misnamed here on the forum as the title is simply "Daring Defences" on the Chesspublishing.com website.  Another opening that's covered here is 1.e4 b6 which of course also doesn't make sense with the "...to d4" name.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #5 - 06/12/11 at 15:51:47
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I'm with TN. The title of this section is "Daring Defences to 1.d4". It would be rather unusual to reach this position from 1.d4. But there is another section that deals nicely with 1.e4... (other) openings.

There are limitations to ECO classifications just as there are to descriptive classifications.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
Reply #4 - 06/12/11 at 04:56:42
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Just thought I mention to any prospective players of this crazy variation that they also should be thoroughly prepared to play one of the variations mentioned in this informative thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209856655/all .

At one time I thought 3.exd5 was the least critical of White's options.  Now I would say that 3.Nc3, 3.exd5 as well as 3.e5 are all worthy moves although still all playable for Black (time will tell...).

  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4
Reply #3 - 04/07/11 at 05:15:27
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I wrote briefly that after 4.d5, 4..Nb8 is playable too and now I find that in Chessbase magazine 138 there is an article on it.  They describe it thus, "Till now 3.Nc3 has been considered as the main move to give White an advantage. But according to Rainer Knaak’s investigations Black can expect to achieve safe equality with 3...dxe4 4.d5 Nb8. Therefore, both 3.e5 and 3.exd5 should be preferred to 3.Nc3."

I don't know if I buy all of that but I might just get that issue sometime to see what all the fuss is about.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4
Reply #2 - 04/07/11 at 04:35:46
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TN wrote on 04/07/11 at 04:19:15:
A good post, Glenn Snow, but doesn't it belong in the '1.e4...' section?


Actually not for chesspub.  The Nimzovich Defence is B00 which falls under "Daring Defences".  I think there has been only three games so far covered by the DD chesspublishing authors after 3...dxe4 4.d5 Ne5 and none that are relevant to my post.
  
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Re: 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4
Reply #1 - 04/07/11 at 04:19:15
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A good post, Glenn Snow, but doesn't it belong in the '1.e4...' section?
  

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1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 (Nimzovich Defence)
04/06/11 at 23:44:03
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     The 3...dxe4 variation of the Nimzovich has gotten a lot of bad press recently and was hoping to have a discussion of it to see if this was truly deserved.  I still think 3...e6 is a decent move but it's always nice to have another option.  Some of the resulting positions do seem to require nerves of steel, but we've seen the second player take as much risk to score the full in some of the wild variations of the Sicilian, so why not in the Nimzovich?  Here's a summary of what I've been looking at:

1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3! dxe4 4.d5 (easily the most critical line) 4...Ne5 (4...Nb8 is playable too but as Watson notes, “requires precise defence in many      variations", from Matering the Chess Openings 4 [MTCO4].  Then again so does 4...Ne5 so this should be looked at further.) 5.Bf4 (5.Qd4 is importantant too.  Watson thinks this also gives White an advantage.  I disagree and hope to discuss it another time.) 5...Ng6 6.Bg3 a6! (5...f5 can transpose but here I think after 7.Nh3 a6 8.f3! (Watson) White has some advantage) 7.Bc4 (7.h4 is the old main-line, and Black seems OK there.  There's also the once debated 7.Nxe4 f5 8.h4! e5! or 8...e6 with complications that seem OK as well.) 7...f5 8.Nh3 Nf6 (8...h5!? was brought to chesspub's attention in another thread by Sören Jensen.  He wrote more on this move and other variations here: http://www.chessville.com/instruction/Openings/Nimzowitsch_Recent_Developments.h....  It still hasn't been refuted although it seems even riskier than my main line here.  White has at least 4 dangerous tries,  9.Nf4; 9.d6; 9.Qe2 and 9.Ng5.  The latter is recommended by IM Scheerer in his recent "The Blackmar-Diemer Gambit", but he doesn't mention Jensen's 9...e5!? or 9...f4!?, which I think is actually a little better for Black.  In my opinion, 9.Nf4 is the best move and leads to some advantage for White.  Perhaps these variations could be debated as well.) 9.0-0 (9.f3 Nh5) 9...h5!?,
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*  I haven't seen this move mentioned anywhere but I think it may be an improvement on Jensen's basic idea. 

A. 10.Nf4 Nxf4 11.Bxf4 b5 12.Bb3 Bb7 13.a3 Rc8 looks OK for Black.

B. 10.Ng5 f4 11.Ncxe4 fxg3 12.fxg3 e6 13.Qd4 Be7 14.Rae1 0-0 15.d6 Nxe4 16.Bxe6+ Bxe6 17.Nxe6 Bf6 18.Qxe4 Qxd6 19.Nxf8 Qd4+ 20.Qxd4 Bxd4+ 21.Kh1 Nxf8, with some advantage to Black.

C. 10.d6 cxd6 11.Ng5 e6 12.Bxe6 Bxe6 13.Nxe6 Qb6 14.Nd5 (14.Nxf8 Rxf8 15.Qxd6 Qxd6 16.Bxd6 Rf7=; 14.h4 Kf7!?, unclear) 14...Nxd5 15.Qxd5 Ne7! 16.Qd2 (16.Qxd6 Qxd6 17.Bxd6 Rc8=) 16...Kf7 17.Ng5+ Kg8, and Black can make use of ...h5 against most moves next with 18...Rh6!?

Of course I could have given many more variations but I think this is a good start.  One strong move by White in anyone of the variations could make a lot of what I could have written obsolete.  Of course these lines are hair raising and I once described Jensen's 8...h5!? as ugly (the same could be applied to 9...h5!?) the positions don't seem anymore impractical as say variations of the Najdorf, Dragon, or Alekhine.  Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: 04/07/11 at 12:31:19 by Glenn Snow »  
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