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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Marshall with 12.d3 (Read 28975 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #8 - 04/09/11 at 17:37:54
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Markovich wrote on 04/09/11 at 17:22:36:
Yeah, I fouled up that move order; I've just corrected it.  See my comments on 14...Re8 above.  Where can you get this Gustafsson DVD?


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Markovich
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #7 - 04/09/11 at 17:22:36
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Yeah, I fouled up that move order; I've just corrected it.  See my comments on 14...Re8 above.  Where can you get this Gustafsson DVD?
  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #6 - 04/09/11 at 17:15:34
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Markovich wrote on 04/09/11 at 16:05:58:
This is trouble for Black, sez I.  After 12...Bf5 13.Qf3 Qh4 14.g3 Qh3 15.Bxd5 cxd5 16.Qxd5 Rad8 17.Qg2, I'm not sure that 17...Qh5 deserves the exclam that it's awarded in the pdf file here, since Vigorito's book casts some doubt upon its soundness.  And 17...Qxg2 looks rather dreary.


Assume you mean 12..Bd6 13.Re1 Bf5 14.Qf3 in which case the move numbers are +1.  I wouldn't be too hard on the ChessPub Guide as the evaluations in this line have been shifting over the past few years.  In any event, Gustafsson agrees with you.  He mistrusts 18..Qh4 and on his new CB DVD instead recommends 14..Qf6.  Meantime, Aronian has played 18..Qxg2 and defended the ending.  He's had some scary moments, but it can't be all that scary since people have, from the looks of things, stopped testing him in this line.  There's also 14..Re8 to consider.         

  
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #5 - 04/09/11 at 17:11:30
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On second thought, in that Vigorito line with all the White pawns versus Black's piece, 17...f5 18.Qxb4 Bb8 and Black appears to get quite a bit of play from the inevitable ...f4!
  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #4 - 04/09/11 at 16:54:38
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Ametanoitos wrote on 04/09/11 at 16:51:50:
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I don't know about you, but I don't play 1...e5 with the object of reaching a pawn-down ending that I can probably, but not certainly, draw


That's why i don't like either the Marschall myself. The Old Main Line (with d4, g3, Be3 etc) is full of such endgames. Engines clearly prefer White but theory says it's an endgame where the 2 Bishops give comp for the pawn and the draw eventually. For a GM this is fine but for a club player?


Right, especially in the weekend Swiss format so popular in my country.  You need those black wins.  There is no "c" in Marshall, by the way; that's a German transliteration.
  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #3 - 04/09/11 at 16:51:50
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Quote:
I don't know about you, but I don't play 1...e5 with the object of reaching a pawn-down ending that I can probably, but not certainly, draw


That's why i don't like either the Marschall myself. The Old Main Line (with d4, g3, Be3 etc) is full of such endgames. Engines clearly prefer White but theory says it's an endgame where the 2 Bishops give comp for the pawn and the draw eventually. For a GM this is fine but for a club player?
  
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Markovich
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #2 - 04/09/11 at 16:45:21
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I corrected that typo.

I don't know about you, but I don't play 1...e5 with the object of reaching a pawn-down ending that I can probably, but not certainly, draw.  So maybe my problem with the Marshall is less with 12.d3 than that this appears to be the object of Black's play throughout.  But 12.d3 seems to be a very good case in point.

You said 13...Re8 - do you mean 14...Re8?  The critical game for that appears to be Stellwagen - Gustafsson, Bundesliga 2008, 15.Rxe8 Qxe8 16.Nd2 Qe8 17. Nf1 Bg6 18.g3 b5 19.c4 Nf6, when Nataf's 20.Qxc6! looks rather difficult for Black. Black also had 19...Nc7, but that looks funny to me.

Actually Vigorito thinks 18...Qh5 is perfectly OK, but my concern there is 19.Be3 Bh3 20.Qc6 Be6 21.Nd2 Bd5 22.Qxa6 Qh3 24.Ne4 f5 and in spite of the extra piece, all White's pawns look scary to me (Vigorito's analysis).
  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #1 - 04/09/11 at 16:28:49
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Surely you mean 13.Qf3 since Qb3 is impossible.  Wink

Gustafsson on his Marshall DVD doesn´t even mention 14... Qh4 in the files. Instead he analyses both 14... Re8 and 14... Qf6!? (his punctuation) intending ... Qg6. He concludes Black is okay here.

The endgame in the line you gave after 17... Qxg2+ is dreary but fine for Black according to analysis by Pavlovic in "Fighting the Ruy Lopez". At least endgames a pawn down are common in the Marshall and in most cases Black has enough compensation if he possess the bishop pair. Pavlovic also gives 17... Qh5 as satisfactory.

Btw both authors consider 12.d3 as a serious try for White so Black should be well prepared here.

I don´t have access to the chesspub files. Perhaps you are willing to elaborate further why Black is in trouble in this line?
  
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Markovich
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Marshall with 12.d3
04/09/11 at 16:05:58
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This is trouble for Black, sez I.  After 12...Bd6 13.Re1 Bf5 14.Qf3 Qh4 15.g3 Qh3 16.Bxd5 cxd5 17.Qxd5 Rad8 18.Qg2, I'm not sure that 18...Qh5 deserves the exclam that it's awarded in the pdf file here, since Vigorito's book casts some doubt upon its soundness.  And 18...Qxg2 looks rather dreary.
« Last Edit: 04/09/11 at 17:21:41 by Markovich »  

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