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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Marshall with 12.d3 (Read 23648 times)
Oblonskij
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #23 - 04/20/11 at 08:49:47
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Gustafsson made an easy draw at the Thailand open against Vallejo with the 13. ...Bf5 14....Qf6 line. According to his blog, he told his good friend Vallejo after the game:
"it's all on my DVD!"
Vallejo's response:
"OK, i'll download it somewhere"
Grin
  
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MNb
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #22 - 04/11/11 at 22:41:29
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As I looked at 13...Qh4 as a winning try some remarks:

Iso 25...b4 26.cxb4 Bxd3 Black might play 25...Bxd3 26.axb5 (26.Bd2 Be4 27.Qd4 fxg3) fxg3 27.Nxg3 (27.hxg3 Be4 28.Qg5 Qf7 and it's still a game) Bxb5 though White can spoils the fun with 28.Be3.

After 22.a4 Black may try b4 23.cxb4 Bd5 24.Bd2 Rf8.

21.Be4 has more recently been played in De Souza-Menendez, corr ICCF 2005. Black also won this one.

Perhaps, if Black is desparately looking for a win, 18...Kh8 is an option. After 19.Bxd5 cxd5 20.Bf4 Be7 play is quite complicated due to the insecure position of Rd4.

  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #21 - 04/11/11 at 09:51:37
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@Mnb
Quote:
12.d3 Bd6 13.Re1 Qh4 14.g3 Qh3 15.Re4 Qf5 16.Nd2 Qg6 17.Nf1 f5  18.Rd4,f4 looks attractive


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This was actually played in the game Timman-Huebner, 1985

19.Rxd5+, cxd5
20.Bxd5+,Be6
21.Bxa8   
   
(21.Be4,Qf7!? 22.Bxa8,fxg3 23.Bg2,bxh2+ 24.Kh1,Qxf2!
25.Ne3,Qg3!
And black had more than enough compensation in Balabaev-Schwetlick ICCF corr.,2000)
21......., Rxa8
22.Qf3

22.a4,Bg4 23.Qb3+,Be6= (Nunn)
22.............Rf8
23.Qe4,     Bf5
24.Qd5+,   Kh8
25.a4

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25..........b4!
(25....Bxd3 26.axb,Be4 27.Qd4,fxg 28.Nxg3
gave white slightly better chances in Morgado-Brilla-Banfalvi, corr. 1992)

26.cxb4
26.........., Bxd3!
  (Is I think an improvement)
26....fxg3 27.hxg3,Bxb4 (Timman-Huebner) and now
I think white is for choice after 28.Bd2!

27.Bd2          (what else)
27.......,   Be4
28.Qd4,    Bc7!


And in view of the threat Bb6 white hardly has anything better than repeat moves with 29.Qc5,Bd6 30.Qd4,Bc7.

17.Re1 iso Nf1 is a major alternative.
Consensus is that White is probably somewhat better, but nothing major.
17.a4,Nf6 is also OK for Black although he has to know some theory to avoid some major pitfalls.
18.Re1,Bg4! 19.f3,Bh3 is the critical line
(see for instance Goloshcapov-Azarov, Cappella la Grande, 2006)
  
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MNb
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #20 - 04/11/11 at 02:49:52
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Markovich wrote on 04/09/11 at 16:05:58:
This is trouble for Black, sez I.

How exactly is White supposed to refute 12.d3 Bd6 13.Re1 Qh4 14.g3 Qh3 15.Re4 Qf5 16.Nd2 Qg6 17.Re1 f5 ?

And if White can't, doesn't this provide more winning chances than 13...Bf5 ?

Markovich wrote on 04/10/11 at 14:08:32:
the question becomes, can you play this for a win, or perhaps more correctly, can you expect your white opponents to screw up that often?


I looked a bit at 18.a4, 18.c4 and 18.f4 and I found the complications amazing.
After 17.a4 Black can choose between 17...Nf6 and 17...Bf5.
17.Nf1 f5 18.Rd4 f4 looks attractive.
  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #19 - 04/10/11 at 20:16:22
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Fllg wrote on 04/10/11 at 19:06:33:
A search in Megabase for games in the years from 2000 to 2010 with the rating of both players between 2000 and 2300 indicates that the Marshall is a viable choice since Black scored 52%.

In my experience even strong players are not always well prepared or decide to deviate early for some reason. An example from my own praxis are two games from last year (one against an IM) where my opponents played the rare 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c5 6.d5 with White against me (I won both) but no one dared to play 6.Bb5+ which is the mainline.

If you like the resulting positions arising from the Marshall I see no reason not to give it a try but like belgian I expect most players to deviate before move 8 with the Marshall rarely appearing on your board.


Yeah, I would fully expect the same, which might not be such a bad thing.  Food for thought.
  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #18 - 04/10/11 at 19:06:33
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A search in Megabase for games in the years from 2000 to 2010 with the rating of both players between 2000 and 2300 indicates that the Marshall is a viable choice since Black scored 52%.

In my experience even strong players are not always well prepared or decide to deviate early for some reason. An example from my own praxis are two games from last year (one against an IM) where my opponents played the rare 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c5 6.d5 with White against me (I won both) but no one dared to play 6.Bb5+ which is the mainline.

If you like the resulting positions arising from the Marshall I see no reason not to give it a try but like belgian I expect most players to deviate before move 8 with the Marshall rarely appearing on your board.
  
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #17 - 04/10/11 at 17:18:41
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Markovich wrote on 04/10/11 at 14:08:32:
I have Brunello and Pavlovic by the way; all I lack that's recent is the Gustafsson DVD.


I have all three and recommend you getting the Gustafsson DVD.

Markovich wrote on 04/10/11 at 14:08:32:
Once you get to the Open Section of a decent weekend Swiss, however, you're up against people who are likely to know some theory, and the question becomes, can you play this for a win, or perhaps more correctly, can you expect your white opponents to screw up that often?


I think so. Gustaffson shows how to avoid most pawn-down drawable endgames and if Kramnik can lose a game with white when the world championship's at stake, lesser players can too.

The other consideration is that you will often get anti-Marshalls where there are less drawish endgames out of the opening.

/pierre
  
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #16 - 04/10/11 at 14:08:32
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Fllg wrote on 04/10/11 at 07:32:12:
Hmm, perhaps yes.

Anyway I would concentrate my investigations on Gustafssons 14... Qf6 if I intended to play the Marshall with Black.

Edit:

Upon further reflection Black seems to be okay here as well.

I) 25.Rad1 f4 26.Bxf4 Rxf4 27.Rd2 (not 27.gxf4 Bxf4 -+) Rf5 28.Qb6 Rdf8 29.f4 Qg4 with good play.

II) 25.Qa4 f4 26.Bxf4 Rxf4 27.Re2 (here 27.gxf4 Bxf4 is bad as well for White) Rf7 with counterplay based on Rdf8, h5-h4, Ba7. It will take quite some time before the queenside pawns become dangerous, e. g. 28.Qc2 h5 29.d4 h4 30.c4 hxg3 31.fxg3 Rdf8 32.Rg2 Qf5 33.Re2 Qh3 repeats.

Of course in these lines many other moves can be considered...


Yeah, I looked at both of these before posting about ...Bb8, actually.  But I think you're right.  So now the question is, is Vigorito right that 18...Qh5 19.Be3 Bh3 is viable for Black?  It certainly is a lot more appealing than 19...Bxd3, which Vigorito doesn't like (I have Brunello and Pavlovic by the way; all I lack that's recent is the Gustafsson DVD).

But leaving aside 12.d3 there is the larger question of whether the Marshall is a good repertoire choice for someone in the lower-to-middling range of "strong" players, say a USCF-NM?  I would argue that at lower levels it might be (if anyone ever got a chance to play it), because White's theoretical knowledge might permit Black a decent proportion of wins.  One you get to the Open Section of a decent weekend Swiss, however, you're up against people who are likely to know some theory, and the question becomes, can you play this for a win, or perhaps more correctly, can you expect your white opponents to screw up that often?
  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #15 - 04/10/11 at 11:30:13
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Fllg wrote on 04/10/11 at 07:32:12:
Anyway I would concentrate my investigations on Gustafssons 14... Qf6 if I intended to play the Marshall with Black.

Oh, I certainly don't intend to play the Marshall the next few years; perhaps later. So at the moment I am more interested in an overview; which lines are worth considering, which should be avoided. I don't see much wrong with the simple 19...Bxd3 20.Nd2 b4 either: pawn down, open position, pair of bishops as long term compensation. It's just nice to have a choice.
Thanks.
  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #14 - 04/10/11 at 07:32:12
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Hmm, perhaps yes.

Anyway I would concentrate my investigations on Gustafssons 14... Qf6 if I intended to play the Marshall with Black.

Edit:

Upon further reflection Black seems to be okay here as well.

I) 25.Rad1 f4 26.Bxf4 Rxf4 27.Rd2 (not 27.gxf4 Bxf4 -+) Rf5 28.Qb6 Rdf8 29.f4 Qg4 with good play.

II) 25.Qa4 f4 26.Bxf4 Rxf4 27.Re2 (here 27.gxf4 Bxf4 is bad as well for White) Rf7 with counterplay based on Rdf8, h5-h4, Ba7. It will take quite some time before the queenside pawns become dangerous, e. g. 28.Qc2 h5 29.d4 h4 30.c4 hxg3 31.fxg3 Rdf8 32.Rg2 Qf5 33.Re2 Qh3 repeats.

Of course in these lines many other moves can be considered...
« Last Edit: 04/10/11 at 10:57:02 by Fllg »  
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #13 - 04/09/11 at 22:01:20
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You're absolutely right.
Can White try 15.Rad1 or 15.Qa4 to play for a win?
  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #12 - 04/09/11 at 21:00:37
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MNb wrote on 04/09/11 at 18:46:34:
You got your moves mixed up again. Assuming you meant 24...f5 25.Qxb5 Bb8, here 26.Bb6 looks annoying.


I think actually it was 23... f5 24.Qxb5 Bb8 when your 25.Bb6 leads to this position if I´m right:

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But here silicon suggest 25... f4! with a clear Black advantage. Shocked

Possibly 25.Bc5 f4 26.d4 fxg3 27.hxg3 Bxe4 28.Rxe4 Bxg3 29.fxg3 Qxg3+ with a perpetual is the best.

Some confusion with moveorders and numbers here. I hope I got it right this time.  Wink
  
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #11 - 04/09/11 at 19:34:22
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Maybe we should give Mark some time to adapt to his new wooden chess set. He likes his set so much that he forgets moves!
  
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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #10 - 04/09/11 at 18:46:34
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Markovich wrote on 04/09/11 at 16:45:21:
Actually Vigorito thinks 18...Qh5 is perfectly OK, but my concern there is 19.Be3 Bh3 20.Qc6 Be6 21.Nd2 Bd5 22.Qxa6 Qh3 24.Ne4 f5 and in spite of the extra piece, all White's pawns look scary to me (Vigorito's analysis).


Markovich wrote on 04/09/11 at 17:11:30:
On second thought, in that Vigorito line with all the White pawns versus Black's piece, 17...f5 18.Qxb4 Bb8 and Black appears to get quite a bit of play from the inevitable ...f4!


You got your moves mixed up again. Assuming you meant 24...f5 25.Qxb5 Bb8, here 26.Bb6 looks annoying.
So either 25...Ba8 25.Rad1 f4 26.Bxf4 Rxf4 27.Rd2 or 25...Bc7 25.Rad1 f4 26.Bxf4 Bxf4 27.c4 and in both cases I don't see how Black can make progress.

I also must say that the way Black shifts Bishop (Bc8-f5-h3-e6-d5) and Queen (Qh4-h3-h5-h3) strikes me as a bit odd.

Luis Almiron played in WCh-23 finale, ICCF 19...Bxd3 20.Nd2 b4 and drew against RJ Maliangkay. Later he won a game with it. So this deserves attention.
  

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Re: Marshall with 12.d3
Reply #9 - 04/09/11 at 17:45:10
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Markovich, I meant 14... Re8 and 14... Qf6 and corrected my typos as well. You confused me with your move numbers.  Cheesy

After 20.Qxc6 Gustafsson ends his analysis after move 33 (!) with a slight plus for White but only if both sides know what they are doing.

Pavlovic on the other hand after 18... Qh5 19.Be3 gives 19... Bxd3.

Of course you are absolutely right this is not attractive for an amateur when the only prospect is groveling for a draw.  Gustafsson does his best to avoid these dry endings (which is why he recommends 14... Qf6!?) but this is probably not always possible. At least White has to know or find some good moves as well to achieve these positions.

I have nearly no practical experience with the Marshall exactly for this reason but find it still an interesting line to study.
  
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