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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) resources on reverse grand prix? (Read 20416 times)
Vass
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #25 - 06/29/11 at 11:22:15
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agropop wrote on 06/07/11 at 12:23:33:
gwnn wrote on 06/03/11 at 16:40:55:
1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 f5 4 Bg2 Nf6 5 e3?! d5! where we will play Nb4 intending to jump in d3. Sad


Once i played a game that followed (i was black) 5 a3!? with the obvious idea 5...a5?! 6. e3, and the line with d5 and Nb4 is ruled out.

I have played the reversed G.P. with good results but now i dislike the line because 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 f5 4.Cf3! Cf6 5.d4! e4 6.Nh4 which was played in a Gulko-Yermolinky game. I'm not sure if this line is recomended by Marin but i find it very anoying, in fact i think it creates more problems for black than the line 3.Nf3 f5 4.d4 e4 5. Ng5

Yes, agropop! 4.Nf3 and 5.d4 is a good answer for white in order to receive an edge.
From all I've read here in this topic I assume that for a classical Dutch player the best approach is to stick with 1... f5 than to try to play 1.... e5, thus helping white to get some chances with d2-d4 push. It's the main goal for the first player after all - pushing d2-d4 at some stage and receiving good chances. The 1.c4 player's philosophy!  Wink
So, imo stick to your gun's 1.... f5 and don't be frightened by ghosts' From-nowhere! Our forum friends above already told you that nowhere From is to be found here..
As a first player and devoted 1.Nf3 & 2.c4 fan...I recommend you to prepare yourself for the improved Lisitsin (1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 and 3.e4) too..  Even Svenny (Sven Magnus Oen Carlsen) played it at some stage. And btw, Lisitsin means Foxy in English.  Wink
  
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RivertonKnight
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #24 - 06/07/11 at 23:02:00
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A Strategic Opening Repertoire by Donaldson/Hansen. The book looks at it from White's point of view.

Hope that helps, AJ
  
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agropop
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #23 - 06/07/11 at 12:23:33
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gwnn wrote on 06/03/11 at 16:40:55:
1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 f5 4 Bg2 Nf6 5 e3?! d5! where we will play Nb4 intending to jump in d3. Sad


Once i played a game that followed (i was black) 5 a3!? with the obvious idea 5...a5?! 6. e3, and the line with d5 and Nb4 is ruled out.

I have played the reversed G.P. with good results but now i dislike the line because 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 f5 4.Cf3! Cf6 5.d4! e4 6.Nh4 which was played in a Gulko-Yermolinky game. I'm not sure if this line is recomended by Marin but i find it very anoying, in fact i think it creates more problems for black than the line 3.Nf3 f5 4.d4 e4 5. Ng5
  
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #22 - 06/07/11 at 01:22:54
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Fromper wrote on 06/03/11 at 15:20:59:
I'm just worried about playing 1. c4 f5, because 2. e4 leads to From's Gambit with colors reversed, and white gets an extra useful tempo for having his pawn on c4 already.

In this position, c4 rather looks detrimental in view of d3-d4 squares. If you don't want to allow some reverse From with an early...Nf6, you can play at once 2...fxe4 3.Nc3 Nc6, as after 4.Nxe4 e5 5.Nf3 Nf6 Black is more than comfortable. Try to see if you have more reasons to prefer e5/f5 to f5/e5. Some time ago I wanted to delay d4 against 1.c4 f5 (e.g. with b3 or d3 setups), but found no joy against ...g6 systems.
As for playing a full Grand Prix with reverse colours (if this means ...e5,f5,Nf6 and Bc5 in one go), this seems a bit optimistic since ...d6 is always needed to support e5/f5 from what I can see. 
  
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fling
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #21 - 06/04/11 at 17:57:39
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/04/11 at 11:37:32:
gwnn wrote on 06/03/11 at 16:40:55:
Also, a nice line for black is 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 f5 4 Bg2 Nf6 5 e3?! d5! where we will play Nb4 intending to jump in d3. The computer gives something like -1.5 already to most positions arising after this.

Bear in mind that I am not a strong player, I'm just parroting what GM Tony Kosten advised against in his c4 book. Smiley

I changed my mind about this line some years ago, and now think it is just good for White - have a look at that Grischuk game I analysed on the Flank Openings section. Wink


Sorry, but which update is this?
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #20 - 06/04/11 at 11:37:32
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gwnn wrote on 06/03/11 at 16:40:55:
Also, a nice line for black is 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 f5 4 Bg2 Nf6 5 e3?! d5! where we will play Nb4 intending to jump in d3. The computer gives something like -1.5 already to most positions arising after this.

Bear in mind that I am not a strong player, I'm just parroting what GM Tony Kosten advised against in his c4 book. Smiley

I changed my mind about this line some years ago, and now think it is just good for White - have a look at that Grischuk game I analysed on the Flank Openings section. Wink
  
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #19 - 06/04/11 at 04:25:29
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Fromper wrote on 06/03/11 at 15:20:59:
So does anyone have move order recommendations/warnings for playing f5 early after 1. c4 e5, and any book or online article recommendations for how to play those positions?


This (Classical Dutch-ish) line is Keene & Levy's recommendation against the English in An Opening Repertoire for the Attacking Player. At least, in my ancient 1984 edition it is - not sure whether it's still available these days or whether that line is still in it.

For example, one main line they give is 1.c4 e5 2.g3 d6 3.Bg2 f5 4.e3 Nf6 5.d4 Be7 etc (e.g. with Qe8-h5 etc) - standard Classical Dutch behaviour.
  
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #18 - 06/03/11 at 21:33:42
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I like the "idea-based" coverage of these various English sidelines in Watson's Mastering the Chess Openings 3.

It's particularly good on 2.Nc3 d6 and 2.Nc3 Bb4; both often leave Black with ...f5 options later.
  

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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #17 - 06/03/11 at 19:44:35
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kylemeister wrote on 06/03/11 at 16:44:55:
The usefulness of c4 after 1...f5 2. e4 strikes me as doubtful; here are some lines which have been given in ECO:  2...fe 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d3 (4. g4 g6 5. g5 Nh5 6. Nxe4 Bg7 7. d4 d5 8. Ng3 Nxg3 9. hg Nc6 10. Be3 Bf5 11. Bg2 Qd7 =+ Sokolski-Vasjukov, USSR 1960) e5 5. de Bb4= .


Another good option for black is 2...e5! with a good reversed King's Gambit, as c4 robs white of most good set-ups vs the KG, e.g: no Bc4 or d4, exd4 c3 available, plus a hole on d4. Compare also with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e5?
  
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #16 - 06/03/11 at 18:54:49
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kylemeister wrote on 06/03/11 at 17:54:55:
Incidentally, I'm probably not the only one for whom 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 d6 3. d4 immediately produces the thought "Hübner-Kasparov."  Classic stuff.


Indeed! That game is a very good illustration of Blacks chances.
  
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #15 - 06/03/11 at 17:54:55
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Filg in edit 2 said what I was going to say; this points up why 2. e4 as far as I know has never been considered a significant challenge to 1. c4 f5.

Incidentally, I'm probably not the only one for whom 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 d6 3. d4 immediately produces the thought "Hübner-Kasparov."  Classic stuff.
  
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #14 - 06/03/11 at 17:31:08
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In Dynamic English, it is said that 1 c4 e5 2 g3 f5 is a mistake because of 3 d4. I don't know or remember the reason, but I just accepted it and play Nc6 first.
  
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #13 - 06/03/11 at 17:15:02
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As I mentioned above 1.c4 e5 intending 2... d6 & 3... f5 is a viable line for Black. Of course it depends on Whites choice on move 2 or 3:

A) 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3 f5 followed by Nf6, Be7 and 0-0 is what you probably want since the setup is similar to the classical Dutch. Fianchettoing with g6 & Bg7 is another major option here.

B) 2.Nc3 d6 3.d4 disturbs Blacks intentions but is well met by 3... exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6. Sometimes Black is able to open the position with ... d5. That has nothing in common with the Dutch but is nevertheless interesting for Black.

C) 2.Nc3 d6 3.Nf3 f5 4.d4 e4 is another important choice for White here.

If you don´t like B) and C) I can´t see anything wrong playing 1.c4 f5. A decade ago I have seen the sequence 1.c4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d6 often as Black and if White didn´t play 4.d4 I happily followed with 4... e5 reaching line A) above. Of course this doesn´t mean White cannot play for an advantage here.

But as Kylemeister wrote you shouldn´t be worried about a reversed From.

Edit1 : If you intend to play f5 on move 2 you should always take the answer d4 into account.

Edit2: In the reversed From after 1.c4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.d3 Black can play 3... Nf6. Now 4.dxe4 e5 leads to a position where White would wish to have c4 available for his Bishop.
  
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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #12 - 06/03/11 at 17:06:52
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gwnn wrote on 06/03/11 at 16:40:55:
I think the idea is to play Nc6 to prevent an early d4. But then what if White plays a quick Nf3? Not sure. Also, a nice line for black is

1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 f5 4 Bg2 Nf6 5 e3?! d5! where we will play Nb4 intending to jump in d3. The computer gives something like -1.5 already to most positions arising after this.

Bear in mind that I am not a strong player, I'm just parroting what GM Tony Kosten advised against in his c4 book. Smiley I had this position quite a bit at the board and I like the attack. As a testimony of my lacking skills, I manage to lose from this position quite often Sad


Yeah, this is the type of info I'm looking for. Nc6 is a move I rarely play in the Classical Dutch, for fear that the d4 pawn will advance to d5. But getting it in before d4 makes sense, and I was thinking of that even before I posted in this thread. Like I said, the whole point for me is to try and get a better position out of the Classical Dutch (or something similar) against 1. c4 than I normally do against 1. d4.

From what I've seen, English players around here seem to play Nf3 or g3 on the 2nd move, rather than Nc3. Against g3, I think I'm safe with 1. c4 e5 2. g3 f5, and just go from there, unless there's something I'm missing. But that Nf3 needs an answer to defend e5 before I can play f5, which probably means Nc6 again.

Kylemeister, I was thinking in terms of the From's Gambit, where after 1. f4 e5 2. fxe5 d6 3. exd6 Bxd6 4. Nf3, white usually ends up playing d4 soon, and c5 is a standard move for black in some lines. Playing the same thing with colors reversed, the extra tempo of having c4 already out there has to be good for white. In the line you give, I'm kinda surprised white plays Nc3 instead of playing d3, From's style.

  

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Re: resources on reverse grand prix?
Reply #11 - 06/03/11 at 16:44:55
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The usefulness of c4 after 1...f5 2. e4 strikes me as doubtful; here are some lines which have been given in ECO:  2...fe 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d3 (4. g4 g6 5. g5 Nh5 6. Nxe4 Bg7 7. d4 d5 8. Ng3 Nxg3 9. hg Nc6 10. Be3 Bf5 11. Bg2 Qd7 =+ Sokolski-Vasjukov, USSR 1960) e5 5. de Bb4= .
  
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