Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chigorin - still in good shape? (Read 47808 times)
kevinludwig
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 233
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #61 - 04/01/19 at 18:47:14
Post Tools
is 13. Qxb2 playable? E.g.

6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Qxb2 14. Rc1 Nfd7
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
God Member
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 587
Location: Kidderminster
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #60 - 02/18/19 at 21:57:38
Post Tools
tracke wrote on 02/17/19 at 20:09:43:
Glenn Snow wrote on 02/17/19 at 08:56:02:
Anyone seen The Chigorin Defence: Move by Move by Jimmy Liew.  I'm curious as to how he treats the "refutation".


I‘m not a Chigorin expert and have not regularly followed this thread but probably you mean the Solak line?!
6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Nfd7
14.0-0-0 Qxf2 15.Rhf1 Qb6 16.Bxe5 Nxe5 17.Nd5 Qd8 18.Kb1 White has a clear advantage (Solak)

Here Liew2018 has „[...] but Dean from the ChessPublishing Forum suggested
18...g6 19.Nf6+ exf6 20.Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.Qxa7 b5 22.fxg6 hxg6 23.Rxf6 Bxe7 24.Rf2 Rh4 25.Qe3 Kf8
and Black seems to be alright. It is hard to suggest how White might make progress given Black‘s total control
of the dark squares. Whether all this holds up remains to be seen“



I played a correspondence game last year in this line, which went:
[Event "ESP/MG2/D (ESP)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2017.10.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Evans, Craig"]
[Black "Azevedo, José Manuel P."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D07"]
[WhiteElo "2300"]
[BlackElo "2300"]
[PlyCount "141"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. e4 Bg4 6. Bxc4 Bxf3 7. gxf3 Qxd4
8. Qb3 Ne5 9. Be2 Qb6 10. Qa4+ c6 11. f4 Ned7 12. e5 Nc5 13. Qc2 Nd5 14. Nxd5
cxd5 15. Be3 Qa5+ 16. Kf1 e6 17. Rc1 Nd7 18. Qc7 Qxc7 19. Rxc7 a6 20. Rxb7 Bc5
21. Bxc5 Nxc5 22. Rc7 Nd7 23. Rg1 Kd8 24. Rc6 g6 25. Bxa6 Ke7 26. a4 Ra7 27.
Bb5 f6 28. exf6+ Nxf6 29. Ke2 Nh5 30. f5 gxf5 31. Ke3 Kf6 32. f4 Rb8 33. b3
Rab7 34. b4 Ra8 35. Rb1 Rab8 36. Rbc1 Rg8 37. Rc7 Rxc7 38. Rxc7 Rg4 39. Bc6
Rxf4 40. a5 Rxb4 41. a6 f4+ 42. Kf3 Rb3+ 43. Kg4 Ng7 44. a7 h5+ 45. Kh4 Rb2 46.
Rf7+ Kxf7 47. a8=Q Nf5+ 48. Kh3 Rb3+ 49. Kg2 Rb2+ 50. Kf3 Rxh2 51. Qe8+ Kf6 52.
Bd7 Nd4+ 53. Kxf4 Rh4+ 54. Kg3 Rg4+ 55. Kh3 Re4 56. Qxh5 Ne2 57. Qh8+ Kf5 58.
Qf8+ Ke5 59. Qg7+ Kf5 60. Qf7+ Kg5 61. Qe7+ Kf5 62. Be8 Nf4+ 63. Kg3 Ke5 64.
Qg7+ Kd6 65. Kg4 Ng2+ 66. Kg5 Ne3 67. Qf8+ Ke5 68. Bg6 Rg4+ 69. Kh5 Rc4 70.
Qb8+ Kf6 71. Bd3 1-0

So my opponent deviated from the Solak line for black, but got fairly easily crushed.

In terms of the 'actual' Solak analysis, it is worth pointing out that as well as 12.f5, black needs to try and fix up 12.e5!? and 12.Be3!? - both of these were considerations of mine in that correspondence game had black gone for 11...Ng6, and both of them give white good chances.

However, the bigger problem for black is that 18...g6?! doesn't hold up to scrutiny. 19.Nf6+!? is fine for white to get a material imbalance where he has chances to convert... however, 19.Qb4 looks like the bigger problem for me (or 19.Qa3 with similar ideas) - the knight on d5 is immune due to 19...cxd5 20.Bb5+ with splat on the d-file. 19...Qc8 looks black's only bet, but 20.Qd4 looks pretty promising to me with the threats it creates. My Stockfish (configured for Correspondence chess) on a deep search depth gives white more than +2 in the main lines, with a won exchange and still attacking threats.

Even if black can somehow try to hold this, it's pretty miserable it seems. Solak's line is just Kryptonite to the Chigorin. I seem to recall a few years ago, the only efforts to keep the Chig afloat centred around early deviations from this line?

Hope this is helpful.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1674
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #59 - 02/18/19 at 02:53:23
Post Tools
Thanks very much for the review tracke.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tracke
Senior Member
****
Offline


Introite tam etiam ibi
dei sunt

Posts: 376
Location: Kiel
Joined: 09/21/04
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #58 - 02/17/19 at 20:09:43
Post Tools
Glenn Snow wrote on 02/17/19 at 08:56:02:
Anyone seen The Chigorin Defence: Move by Move by Jimmy Liew.  I'm curious as to how he treats the "refutation".


I‘m not a Chigorin expert and have not regularly followed this thread but probably you mean the Solak line?!
6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Nfd7
14.0-0-0 Qxf2 15.Rhf1 Qb6 16.Bxe5 Nxe5 17.Nd5 Qd8 18.Kb1 White has a clear advantage (Solak)

Here Liew2018 has „[...] but Dean from the ChessPublishing Forum suggested
18...g6 19.Nf6+ exf6 20.Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.Qxa7 b5 22.fxg6 hxg6 23.Rxf6 Bxe7 24.Rf2 Rh4 25.Qe3 Kf8
and Black seems to be alright. It is hard to suggest how White might make progress given Black‘s total control
of the dark squares. Whether all this holds up remains to be seen“

Probably you all know better than me about Dean‘s analysis here in the forum/thread ...
I‘m no Chigorin expert though ~10-20 years ago I was forced to watch that crap personally as I’m from the same
chess community as Wisnewski/Scheerer (even team mate for one season). „I’m more the positional player“ and
generally prefer defending instead of counter attacking... And therefore Slav, QGD or QGA.
But after experimenting with some sharp QGA lines I thought that Chigorin as third/fourth weapon might
be interesting and deserves a tryout.

I bought that book in December. Very nice book!
Not sure if this is a must-buy for experienced Chigorin players but certainly a very inspiring and well researched
book for interested club players (1700-2100?). Clear and practical explanations with honest evaluations about
being theoretical in slight pressure but having good chances to defend or more. But not going subjective!
Liew honestly explains where Black has slight problems and White a little something.
Among others the bibliography has Bronznik2005, Morozevich2007, Avrukh2008, Wisneswki/Scheerer2009,
Schandorff2012 and Palliser/Flear/Ward2015. It has not Avrukh2016 but I’m sure Liew used it as you won’t
have much problems (= more Problems than usual) playing against a fan of Avrukh1B!?
I don’t know all the Chigorin analysis out there, but regarding Krush-Marshall, StLouis2010 (p.332f Avrukh2016),
Liew has a suggestion on move 14 not mentioned by Avrukh. - Extensive use of corr games!

IMO a very good and interesting book, at least for its purpose and the targeted level!
4,5 stars out of 5

🙂 tracke

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1674
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #57 - 02/17/19 at 08:56:02
Post Tools
Anyone seen The Chigorin Defence: Move by Move by Jimmy Liew.  I'm curious as to how he treats the "refutation".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 459
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #56 - 08/04/17 at 06:07:06
Post Tools
El_Commandante wrote on 08/03/17 at 09:30:41:
Reverse wrote on 08/03/17 at 05:52:56:
I've played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5. Doesn't score well at the high level...but I rarely have anyone actually play critical lines.


I agree. I always considered the line 1d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.Nf3 as the main problem.


I rarely faced that and even when I did, 4...a6 usually flummoxed them...

  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
El_Commandante
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 5
Joined: 04/19/17
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #55 - 08/03/17 at 09:30:41
Post Tools
Reverse wrote on 08/03/17 at 05:52:56:
I've played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5. Doesn't score well at the high level...but I rarely have anyone actually play critical lines.


I agree. I always considered the line 1d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.Nf3 as the main problem.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.cxd5 Nxd4 may not be adequate at top level, but on my level (ELO 2000) it works quite well.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Reverse
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 212
Location: USA
Joined: 11/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #54 - 08/03/17 at 05:52:56
Post Tools
I've played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5. Doesn't score well at the high level...but I rarely have anyone actually play critical lines. GM Ben Finegold has a good score with it. All in all, should be fine for open tournaments. Shulman Finegold is  good example.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1381
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #53 - 07/20/17 at 14:18:35
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 07/19/17 at 20:48:30:
No, 20 years ago I had planned 4.Nf3 Bf5. This variation is quite playable, but gives White the kind of two results positions I wanted to avoid with 4.c4 Nb4.
The reason to call the Kieler Variation bad though is 5.a3. I had something ready and it did work in practice, but it didn't survive later silicon scrutiny. Very regrettable.
If you like I can look up the games and post them here; you commenting on them would be great. Or perhaps something for Kaissiber? You decide.

Always interested in controversial lines, this can be fun. In the evening I'll start a thread on the "Kiel Trap" showing the stem game. Some history never hurts... If you share your games, I'll gladly take a look. - 5.a3 N4a6 surely cannot be worse than the Mokele...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10341
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #52 - 07/19/17 at 20:48:30
Post Tools
No, 20 years ago I had planned 4.Nf3 Bf5. This variation is quite playable, but gives White the kind of two results positions I wanted to avoid with 4.c4 Nb4.
The reason to call the Kieler Variation bad though is 5.a3. I had something ready and it did work in practice, but it didn't survive later silicon scrutiny. Very regrettable.
If you like I can look up the games and post them here; you commenting on them would be great. Or perhaps something for Kaissiber? You decide.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1381
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #51 - 07/19/17 at 13:03:03
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 07/18/17 at 10:02:27:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/18/17 at 07:02:29:
(with the possible exception of the Englund Gambit  Wink )

Without contradicting you - because I actually agree - I'd like to point out the Kieler Gambit 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4 to you. I think I've the right to do so, because in the 1990's I had a stunning 3,5 out of 4 as Black in corr. chess with this variation (I gave the draw because it was enough to win the group; in the final position I was also better). Pleasant memories!
Compared to that one 1...Nc6 and 2...Nc6 are very, very sound.

I must have studied the "Kieler Falle" a long time ago, can't find the file. It is full of inspiring motifs and positions. I just wondered about 5.d5 and found an amusing line (below). Probably a line already in the books, haven't checked. Elsewhere you've mentioned that 4.Nf3 kills much of the fun. Have you looked at 4...c5? Working from the assumption that 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 cxd4 7.Qxd4 is acceptable for "Kiel Trappers" used to defend slightly worse position, the most likely reply seems to be 5.dxc5 Nc6, and I can't find a win for White.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10341
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #50 - 07/18/17 at 10:02:27
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/18/17 at 07:02:29:
(with the possible exception of the Englund Gambit  Wink )

Without contradicting you - because I actually agree - I'd like to point out the Kieler Gambit 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4 to you. I think I've the right to do so, because in the 1990's I had a stunning 3,5 out of 4 as Black in corr. chess with this variation (I gave the draw because it was enough to win the group; in the final position I was also better). Pleasant memories!
Compared to that one 1...Nc6 and 2...Nc6 are very, very sound.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1381
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #49 - 07/18/17 at 07:02:29
Post Tools
CarriedbyGg wrote on 07/17/17 at 17:08:35:
Well...The important question remains.. How much risk does it entail to use this in practice?
Like, I would be tempted to not analyse it further and simply to play the position! But maybe I will also try to set up some training games. But trying to see stuff at the board, not on the screen might be helpful to see the wood here.

I'm sorry if someone expected a quick answer, but I will try to analyse this with some friends and maybe we can draw some conclusions then.

The main point I am trying to make when I post on this site: it is nearly always possible to rescue a difficult variation, you only have to look closer. I guess some regard me as an "engine warrior", but I've got my idea that almost every opening has sufficient resources to be playable (with the possible exception of the Englund Gambit  Wink ) back in the 1970s. True, my variations above are engine-generated, and I posted them just to give your own research a direction.

In an otb game I often fail to remember the details of my analyses. Smiley On the other side, we must be aware that our opponents are also mere humans. If you like the Chigorin, don't give it up. It's such a rich system. I don't know much about it, yet I admire Bronznik's book. A real work of love.

A while ago we've had a long discussion in another thread on 1.d4 Nc6. After my game against Schmidt-Schäffer in the German Ch I told him that chesspub members thought the move 6.Qe2 was critical. His reaction? Very skeptical, to put it mildly. "I'd never find/play such a move." The lesson, I guess, is that PC analysis is fine, as long as we are aware that our opponents rarely find these unnatural/hidden moves.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1941
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #48 - 07/17/17 at 18:46:58
Post Tools
You definitely seem to be risking having a fun game Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CarriedbyGg
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 82
Joined: 02/06/15
Gender: Male
Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #47 - 07/17/17 at 17:08:35
Post Tools
Well...The important question remains.. How much risk does it entail to use this in practice?
Like, I would be tempted to not analyse it further and simply to play the position! But maybe I will also try to set up some training games. But trying to see stuff at the board, not on the screen might be helpful to see the wood here.

I'm sorry if someone expected a quick answer, but I will try to analyse this with some friends and maybe we can draw some conclusions then.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo