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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chigorin - still in good shape? (Read 83189 times)
CarriedbyGg
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #36 - 11/11/16 at 08:15:27
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The only problem I see in the line played in Aronian - Rapport is that even if it is fully playable and promises dynamic equality, White can simply sidestep it by playing

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3! where Black does not really have anything better than 4. ... dc or the ugly 4. ... e6, committing to a poor Queen's Gambit declined.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #35 - 11/10/16 at 20:36:58
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deeplose wrote on 11/09/16 at 20:04:18:
Hi

Any news on Solak's analysis in the 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Bc4!?
The more I look at it the more I think this variation is ugly for black!
Do you think there is another way to get a playable position as black against 3.Nc3?

Thanks in advance.


John Watson has recommended 3...e6 in a video series on the Chigorin.
  
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CarriedbyGg
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #34 - 11/10/16 at 13:40:45
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https://chess24.com/de/watch/live-tournaments/european-club-cup-2016/3/1/2

Richard Rapport, the modern hero of this variation won against Aronian in the Regent ECCC. You can see the game by following the link. I have to say that this was a very impressive win by Rapport in a line that was supposed to be equal at best for Black. maybe this shows that it isn't as easy as it seems, though Aronian probably wasn't prepared for that line. His e3 looks a bit passive to me.
  
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deeplose
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #33 - 11/09/16 at 20:04:18
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Hi

Any news on Solak's analysis in the 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Bc4!?
The more I look at it the more I think this variation is ugly for black!
Do you think there is another way to get a playable position as black against 3.Nc3?

Thanks in advance.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #32 - 05/25/13 at 21:39:36
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Thank you for the reply Smiley
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #31 - 05/25/13 at 20:17:28
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Via 3. cd it has also been mentioned in at least one non-Chigorin book:  NCO.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #30 - 05/25/13 at 18:32:29
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ArKheiN,

Good spot.  The transposition to Goring Gambit declined is well known by players of Chigorin QGD and mentioned in at least 3 Chigorin books.  The transposition is more common from the 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 move order, but it arrives at the same position.

Bronznik (Schachverlag, 2005) at page 197: "Suddenly a polsition from the Goring Gambit Declined has occurred, which is considered to be harmless for Black."

Chigorin Acc. to Morozevich (NIC, 2007) at page 21.

Wisnewski/Scheerer (Everyman, 2007) at page 193.
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #29 - 05/25/13 at 17:40:46
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Hello, I have noticed a quite funny transposition. I didn't want to open a new thread just for that, so I reopen the last thread on the Chigorin.

Here is a Connexion between the Chigorin and the Scotch gambit. I noticed it today while I was playing the black side of a blitz, and I remember to have seen a position very similar in another opening, and after checking, it's the same position!

Here was my game: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6!? (I think the Chigorin is indeed in a good shape against an early Nf3, but not against an early Nc3 without Nf3) 3.c4 Bg4 4.e3 (not very challenging, the 3thd move in popularity) 4..e5 (more played and ambitious than 4..e6) 5.cxd4 (the third played move here, the most played move is 5.dxe5 but with bad statistics according to chesslive; 5.Be2 is the second most played move) 5..Qxd4 6.Nc3 (the most played move) 6..Bb4 7.Be2 (the most played with 124 games in chesslive). And now I have played the most popular and natural move here: 7..exd4 and he played the more popular and natural too: 8.exd4 (8.0-0 is a possible alternative, and the second most played move here). And at this moment I have recognized the position without being sure of the exact transposition. We have reached one of the main defense (recommanded in some books for Black) against the Scotch gambit!

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 d5 5.exd5 Qxd4 6.cxd4 Bg4 7.Be2 Bb4+ 8.Nc3

where the best move now is 8..Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Qc4 with a good game for Black. There is about 1000 games and about 50 games from Chigorin's move order from chesslive database.

Was this transposition known by anyone here? Was it showed in any book?
  
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BabySnake
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #28 - 01/18/13 at 10:25:49
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Reverse wrote on 01/26/12 at 22:26:44:
what about 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5

I have played this in a few rapid games and found the my opponents had never seen it before, so neither player really knew what theory said was best.

I new a guy from the local club who said that avrukh gave this move as a sideline and thus just sort brushed over missing a bunch of stuff. I'm not sure about that. The guy i refer to has moved away, so im not so sure what he was talking about.


Avrukh spends about a page on this line

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.cxd5 Nxd4 5.e3 Nf5 6.Bb5+ [Bronznik mentions only 6.Nf3 in his very brief coverage of 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 where he claims white gets an edge]  6..Bd7 7.Qb3! (Avrukh's exclam)

He analyses 7...Nd6 and 7...Nf6 and claims an edge for white in both cases. Mentions 7...b6 but does not analyse it.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #27 - 01/26/12 at 22:26:44
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what about 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5

I have played this in a few rapid games and found the my opponents had never seen it before, so neither player really knew what theory said was best.

I new a guy from the local club who said that avrukh gave this move as a sideline and thus just sort brushed over missing a bunch of stuff. I'm not sure about that. The guy i refer to has moved away, so im not so sure what he was talking about.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #26 - 11/08/11 at 21:07:24
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I think you are right in that the line is very dangerous for black, but I'm not convinced that it is that much theoretically.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #25 - 11/08/11 at 02:36:20
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@Dean, you may be right.  But this only means that Black is less busted in this variation!
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #24 - 11/05/11 at 12:40:41
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I think your analysis has (at least) one big flaw.

The position after "(15...  Qb6 16.  Bxe5 Nxe5 17.  Nd5 Qd8 18.  Kb1!+/- )"
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

is not won for white. In fact I doubt that white even get any real winning chances after:

18... g6 19. Nf6+ exf6 20. Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.Qxa7 b5

For example 22. fxg6 hxg6 23. Rxf6 Be7 24. Rf2 Rh4 25. Qe3 Kf8 and white's only winning chance is creating a free a-pawn but it seems a bit difficult to coordinate due to the strong e5 knight and white pawn weaknesses.

proustiskeen wrote on 10/30/11 at 03:10:57:
I've edited down the file to just my analysis of the critical position after 11...Ng6, coupled with Solak's original analysis.  Hopefully this looks better in the flash player.



  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #23 - 10/31/11 at 18:46:26
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proustiskeen wrote on 10/31/11 at 17:59:02:
Solak does continue his analysis after 9.Be3:

9...Na5 (9...Qe5 10.Bxf7+/-) 10.Be6+!! fxe6 11.Qb5 Qc4 12.Qxa5 Qxa6 (12...a6 13.Rc1 +/-) 13.Qxa6 bxa6 14.Rc1 +/-


So he does! Sorry, my mistake. I only read the first section of the pdf and didn't realise he returned to the position later on.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #22 - 10/31/11 at 17:59:02
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Solak does continue his analysis after 9.Be3:

9...Na5 (9...Qe5 10.Bxf7+/-) 10.Be6+!! fxe6 11.Qb5 Qc4 12.Qxa5 Qxa6 (12...a6 13.Rc1 +/-) 13.Qxa6 bxa6 14.Rc1 +/-
  
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