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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chigorin - still in good shape? (Read 76791 times)
Kyuken
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #66 - 05/11/22 at 06:54:19
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CraigEvans wrote on 02/18/19 at 21:57:38:
Solak's line is just Kryptonite to the Chigorin. I seem to recall a few years ago, the only efforts to keep the Chig afloat centred around early deviations from this line?


So I purchased the chessable course on the Chigorin from GMs Grover and Gupta and peeked mainly into the ciritical variations the Chigorin suffers in these days.

Firstly, they indeed deviate early in Solak's line with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 e5. (Interestingly Bronznik doesn't quite reach this position, he works only through two games that went 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Be3 Bxf3!? 7.gxf3 e5 8.d5 and now the Knight can't go to d4. The pure 6.Bxc4 isn't mentioned at all. In another side note he gives 6...e5!?)
The main continuations are 8.d5 Nd4 and 8.Be3 Bc5 and I would say that the resulting positions are still plus-over-equals at least, but not something like +2 for White like in the Solak line. I don't recall this being covered in theory before. Did Solak in his original analysis cover this?

The other interesting and critical variations are 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cxd5 Bxf3 5.gxf3 Qxd5 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 9.bxc3 Qd6 10.Qb3, which was featured (as a tabyia?) in one of the TCEC finals of the last years. This cannot really be answered in the same manner as 10.Rb1 (see e.g. Nakamura-Rapport 2007 [1-0] via transposition), but chess literature never got this point across. As I see it Liew was the first to even note a difference to 10.Rb1.
Anyways, play continues with the pawn sac on b7: 10...Nge7 11.Qxb7 0-0 and I think the given lines are okay, but the way the material is presented in the videos is ... shallow, to say the least. Very monotone, giving engine-like continuations without any explanation. Nothing in comparison to e.g. Shanklands' energetic style. This applies to the whole course by the way.

In 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 they correctly identify 6.a3! to be very critical, with the idea to employ the Bishop on the a3-f8 diagonal after playing a4. This line was discussed by seemingly well-informed chessable users (confess  Smiley ) with the authors in the appending discussion forum of chessable, and is a nice, basically free source of information. It seems as their lines lead to equality.

The move order after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 is slightly different from established theory. After 7...exd4 8.Ne2 Nf6 9.Nxd4 0-0 10.Nb5 it's 10...Bg4 and after 10.Nxc6 Qxc6 11.Rc1 I think it's 11...Re8, which works because White lacks a useful discovery now. No mentioning of 11...Qe6 which was discussed on this forum and is given by Liew, and which also seems simpler to me.

So all in all a nice update on the current theory of the Chigorin. It seems that we have at least one really critical and testing variation in every  main branch, but nothing that comes by as a flat out refutation. And the practicability of the Chigorin is undeniable, like having a comprehensive and good repertoire against 2.Nf3 and the Antis.

I'm still making up my mind whether to return the course, though. Don't know whether the vids are worth a hundred bucks.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #65 - 09/06/21 at 06:42:18
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RoleyPoley wrote on 09/05/21 at 20:29:39:
I've just started looking at the Chigorin this week, with an idea to playing it this season and have just seen that there is chessable course scheduled for October.

Chigorin Repertoire for Black by GM Abhijeet Gupta & GM Sahaj Grover

Is it an opening that either of these GM's play?


Gupta's been playing it in blitz this year. Apart from that: No.
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #64 - 09/05/21 at 20:29:39
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I've just started looking at the Chigorin this week, with an idea to playing it this season and have just seen that there is chessable course scheduled for October.

Chigorin Repertoire for Black by GM Abhijeet Gupta & GM Sahaj Grover

Is it an opening that either of these GM's play? (I'm assuming that this is the Chigorin defence, and not the Chigorin variation of the Ruy Lopez).
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #63 - 09/20/20 at 19:23:03
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What is the consensus on the 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nc6 3 Nc3 dxc4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 d5 line?

We can arrive at this position from 3 ... Nf6 4 Nf3 dxc4.

There may be alternatives in the first move order on the 4th move for black.

The piece sacrifice 5 ... Na5 does not score well for black. Does he have to play 5 ... Nb8?
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #62 - 12/29/19 at 15:05:28
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kevinludwig wrote on 04/01/19 at 18:47:14:
is 13. Qxb2 playable? E.g.

6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Qxb2 14. Rc1 Nfd7


I looked at that a while ago. I don't much like Black's position after 15. Rc2 Qb6 16. 0-0 e6 17. Rb1 Qc7 18. fxe6 fxe6 19. Bg3.

There's also 12. e5!? Nd7 13. e6 fxe6 14. 0-0 with tremendous compensation for White.
« Last Edit: 12/29/19 at 18:33:11 by Jonathan Tait »  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #61 - 04/01/19 at 18:47:14
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is 13. Qxb2 playable? E.g.

6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Qxb2 14. Rc1 Nfd7
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #60 - 02/18/19 at 21:57:38
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tracke wrote on 02/17/19 at 20:09:43:
Glenn Snow wrote on 02/17/19 at 08:56:02:
Anyone seen The Chigorin Defence: Move by Move by Jimmy Liew.  I'm curious as to how he treats the "refutation".


I‘m not a Chigorin expert and have not regularly followed this thread but probably you mean the Solak line?!
6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Nfd7
14.0-0-0 Qxf2 15.Rhf1 Qb6 16.Bxe5 Nxe5 17.Nd5 Qd8 18.Kb1 White has a clear advantage (Solak)

Here Liew2018 has „[...] but Dean from the ChessPublishing Forum suggested
18...g6 19.Nf6+ exf6 20.Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.Qxa7 b5 22.fxg6 hxg6 23.Rxf6 Bxe7 24.Rf2 Rh4 25.Qe3 Kf8
and Black seems to be alright. It is hard to suggest how White might make progress given Black‘s total control
of the dark squares. Whether all this holds up remains to be seen“



I played a correspondence game last year in this line, which went:
[Event "ESP/MG2/D (ESP)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2017.10.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Evans, Craig"]
[Black "Azevedo, José Manuel P."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D07"]
[WhiteElo "2300"]
[BlackElo "2300"]
[PlyCount "141"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. e4 Bg4 6. Bxc4 Bxf3 7. gxf3 Qxd4
8. Qb3 Ne5 9. Be2 Qb6 10. Qa4+ c6 11. f4 Ned7 12. e5 Nc5 13. Qc2 Nd5 14. Nxd5
cxd5 15. Be3 Qa5+ 16. Kf1 e6 17. Rc1 Nd7 18. Qc7 Qxc7 19. Rxc7 a6 20. Rxb7 Bc5
21. Bxc5 Nxc5 22. Rc7 Nd7 23. Rg1 Kd8 24. Rc6 g6 25. Bxa6 Ke7 26. a4 Ra7 27.
Bb5 f6 28. exf6+ Nxf6 29. Ke2 Nh5 30. f5 gxf5 31. Ke3 Kf6 32. f4 Rb8 33. b3
Rab7 34. b4 Ra8 35. Rb1 Rab8 36. Rbc1 Rg8 37. Rc7 Rxc7 38. Rxc7 Rg4 39. Bc6
Rxf4 40. a5 Rxb4 41. a6 f4+ 42. Kf3 Rb3+ 43. Kg4 Ng7 44. a7 h5+ 45. Kh4 Rb2 46.
Rf7+ Kxf7 47. a8=Q Nf5+ 48. Kh3 Rb3+ 49. Kg2 Rb2+ 50. Kf3 Rxh2 51. Qe8+ Kf6 52.
Bd7 Nd4+ 53. Kxf4 Rh4+ 54. Kg3 Rg4+ 55. Kh3 Re4 56. Qxh5 Ne2 57. Qh8+ Kf5 58.
Qf8+ Ke5 59. Qg7+ Kf5 60. Qf7+ Kg5 61. Qe7+ Kf5 62. Be8 Nf4+ 63. Kg3 Ke5 64.
Qg7+ Kd6 65. Kg4 Ng2+ 66. Kg5 Ne3 67. Qf8+ Ke5 68. Bg6 Rg4+ 69. Kh5 Rc4 70.
Qb8+ Kf6 71. Bd3 1-0

So my opponent deviated from the Solak line for black, but got fairly easily crushed.

In terms of the 'actual' Solak analysis, it is worth pointing out that as well as 12.f5, black needs to try and fix up 12.e5!? and 12.Be3!? - both of these were considerations of mine in that correspondence game had black gone for 11...Ng6, and both of them give white good chances.

However, the bigger problem for black is that 18...g6?! doesn't hold up to scrutiny. 19.Nf6+!? is fine for white to get a material imbalance where he has chances to convert... however, 19.Qb4 looks like the bigger problem for me (or 19.Qa3 with similar ideas) - the knight on d5 is immune due to 19...cxd5 20.Bb5+ with splat on the d-file. 19...Qc8 looks black's only bet, but 20.Qd4 looks pretty promising to me with the threats it creates. My Stockfish (configured for Correspondence chess) on a deep search depth gives white more than +2 in the main lines, with a won exchange and still attacking threats.

Even if black can somehow try to hold this, it's pretty miserable it seems. Solak's line is just Kryptonite to the Chigorin. I seem to recall a few years ago, the only efforts to keep the Chig afloat centred around early deviations from this line?

Hope this is helpful.
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #59 - 02/18/19 at 02:53:23
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Thanks very much for the review tracke.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #58 - 02/17/19 at 20:09:43
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Glenn Snow wrote on 02/17/19 at 08:56:02:
Anyone seen The Chigorin Defence: Move by Move by Jimmy Liew.  I'm curious as to how he treats the "refutation".


I‘m not a Chigorin expert and have not regularly followed this thread but probably you mean the Solak line?!
6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Nfd7
14.0-0-0 Qxf2 15.Rhf1 Qb6 16.Bxe5 Nxe5 17.Nd5 Qd8 18.Kb1 White has a clear advantage (Solak)

Here Liew2018 has „[...] but Dean from the ChessPublishing Forum suggested
18...g6 19.Nf6+ exf6 20.Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.Qxa7 b5 22.fxg6 hxg6 23.Rxf6 Bxe7 24.Rf2 Rh4 25.Qe3 Kf8
and Black seems to be alright. It is hard to suggest how White might make progress given Black‘s total control
of the dark squares. Whether all this holds up remains to be seen“

Probably you all know better than me about Dean‘s analysis here in the forum/thread ...
I‘m no Chigorin expert though ~10-20 years ago I was forced to watch that crap personally as I’m from the same
chess community as Wisnewski/Scheerer (even team mate for one season). „I’m more the positional player“ and
generally prefer defending instead of counter attacking... And therefore Slav, QGD or QGA.
But after experimenting with some sharp QGA lines I thought that Chigorin as third/fourth weapon might
be interesting and deserves a tryout.

I bought that book in December. Very nice book!
Not sure if this is a must-buy for experienced Chigorin players but certainly a very inspiring and well researched
book for interested club players (1700-2100?). Clear and practical explanations with honest evaluations about
being theoretical in slight pressure but having good chances to defend or more. But not going subjective!
Liew honestly explains where Black has slight problems and White a little something.
Among others the bibliography has Bronznik2005, Morozevich2007, Avrukh2008, Wisneswki/Scheerer2009,
Schandorff2012 and Palliser/Flear/Ward2015. It has not Avrukh2016 but I’m sure Liew used it as you won’t
have much problems (= more Problems than usual) playing against a fan of Avrukh1B!?
I don’t know all the Chigorin analysis out there, but regarding Krush-Marshall, StLouis2010 (p.332f Avrukh2016),
Liew has a suggestion on move 14 not mentioned by Avrukh. - Extensive use of corr games!

IMO a very good and interesting book, at least for its purpose and the targeted level!
4,5 stars out of 5

🙂 tracke

  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #57 - 02/17/19 at 08:56:02
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Anyone seen The Chigorin Defence: Move by Move by Jimmy Liew.  I'm curious as to how he treats the "refutation".
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #56 - 08/04/17 at 06:07:06
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El_Commandante wrote on 08/03/17 at 09:30:41:
Reverse wrote on 08/03/17 at 05:52:56:
I've played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5. Doesn't score well at the high level...but I rarely have anyone actually play critical lines.


I agree. I always considered the line 1d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.Nf3 as the main problem.


I rarely faced that and even when I did, 4...a6 usually flummoxed them...

  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #55 - 08/03/17 at 09:30:41
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Reverse wrote on 08/03/17 at 05:52:56:
I've played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5. Doesn't score well at the high level...but I rarely have anyone actually play critical lines.


I agree. I always considered the line 1d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.Nf3 as the main problem.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.cxd5 Nxd4 may not be adequate at top level, but on my level (ELO 2000) it works quite well.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #54 - 08/03/17 at 05:52:56
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I've played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5. Doesn't score well at the high level...but I rarely have anyone actually play critical lines. GM Ben Finegold has a good score with it. All in all, should be fine for open tournaments. Shulman Finegold is  good example.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #53 - 07/20/17 at 14:18:35
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MNb wrote on 07/19/17 at 20:48:30:
No, 20 years ago I had planned 4.Nf3 Bf5. This variation is quite playable, but gives White the kind of two results positions I wanted to avoid with 4.c4 Nb4.
The reason to call the Kieler Variation bad though is 5.a3. I had something ready and it did work in practice, but it didn't survive later silicon scrutiny. Very regrettable.
If you like I can look up the games and post them here; you commenting on them would be great. Or perhaps something for Kaissiber? You decide.

Always interested in controversial lines, this can be fun. In the evening I'll start a thread on the "Kiel Trap" showing the stem game. Some history never hurts... If you share your games, I'll gladly take a look. - 5.a3 N4a6 surely cannot be worse than the Mokele...
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #52 - 07/19/17 at 20:48:30
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No, 20 years ago I had planned 4.Nf3 Bf5. This variation is quite playable, but gives White the kind of two results positions I wanted to avoid with 4.c4 Nb4.
The reason to call the Kieler Variation bad though is 5.a3. I had something ready and it did work in practice, but it didn't survive later silicon scrutiny. Very regrettable.
If you like I can look up the games and post them here; you commenting on them would be great. Or perhaps something for Kaissiber? You decide.
  

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