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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chigorin - still in good shape? (Read 75208 times)
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #66 - 05/11/22 at 06:54:19
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CraigEvans wrote on 02/18/19 at 21:57:38:
Solak's line is just Kryptonite to the Chigorin. I seem to recall a few years ago, the only efforts to keep the Chig afloat centred around early deviations from this line?


So I purchased the chessable course on the Chigorin from GMs Grover and Gupta and peeked mainly into the ciritical variations the Chigorin suffers in these days.

Firstly, they indeed deviate early in Solak's line with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 e5. (Interestingly Bronznik doesn't quite reach this position, he works only through two games that went 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Be3 Bxf3!? 7.gxf3 e5 8.d5 and now the Knight can't go to d4. The pure 6.Bxc4 isn't mentioned at all. In another side note he gives 6...e5!?)
The main continuations are 8.d5 Nd4 and 8.Be3 Bc5 and I would say that the resulting positions are still plus-over-equals at least, but not something like +2 for White like in the Solak line. I don't recall this being covered in theory before. Did Solak in his original analysis cover this?

The other interesting and critical variations are 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.cxd5 Bxf3 5.gxf3 Qxd5 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2 Bxc3 9.bxc3 Qd6 10.Qb3, which was featured (as a tabyia?) in one of the TCEC finals of the last years. This cannot really be answered in the same manner as 10.Rb1 (see e.g. Nakamura-Rapport 2007 [1-0] via transposition), but chess literature never got this point across. As I see it Liew was the first to even note a difference to 10.Rb1.
Anyways, play continues with the pawn sac on b7: 10...Nge7 11.Qxb7 0-0 and I think the given lines are okay, but the way the material is presented in the videos is ... shallow, to say the least. Very monotone, giving engine-like continuations without any explanation. Nothing in comparison to e.g. Shanklands' energetic style. This applies to the whole course by the way.

In 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 they correctly identify 6.a3! to be very critical, with the idea to employ the Bishop on the a3-f8 diagonal after playing a4. This line was discussed by seemingly well-informed chessable users (confess  Smiley ) with the authors in the appending discussion forum of chessable, and is a nice, basically free source of information. It seems as their lines lead to equality.

The move order after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 is slightly different from established theory. After 7...exd4 8.Ne2 Nf6 9.Nxd4 0-0 10.Nb5 it's 10...Bg4 and after 10.Nxc6 Qxc6 11.Rc1 I think it's 11...Re8, which works because White lacks a useful discovery now. No mentioning of 11...Qe6 which was discussed on this forum and is given by Liew, and which also seems simpler to me.

So all in all a nice update on the current theory of the Chigorin. It seems that we have at least one really critical and testing variation in every  main branch, but nothing that comes by as a flat out refutation. And the practicability of the Chigorin is undeniable, like having a comprehensive and good repertoire against 2.Nf3 and the Antis.

I'm still making up my mind whether to return the course, though. Don't know whether the vids are worth a hundred bucks.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #65 - 09/06/21 at 06:42:18
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RoleyPoley wrote on 09/05/21 at 20:29:39:
I've just started looking at the Chigorin this week, with an idea to playing it this season and have just seen that there is chessable course scheduled for October.

Chigorin Repertoire for Black by GM Abhijeet Gupta & GM Sahaj Grover

Is it an opening that either of these GM's play?


Gupta's been playing it in blitz this year. Apart from that: No.
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #64 - 09/05/21 at 20:29:39
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I've just started looking at the Chigorin this week, with an idea to playing it this season and have just seen that there is chessable course scheduled for October.

Chigorin Repertoire for Black by GM Abhijeet Gupta & GM Sahaj Grover

Is it an opening that either of these GM's play? (I'm assuming that this is the Chigorin defence, and not the Chigorin variation of the Ruy Lopez).
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #63 - 09/20/20 at 19:23:03
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What is the consensus on the 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nc6 3 Nc3 dxc4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 d5 line?

We can arrive at this position from 3 ... Nf6 4 Nf3 dxc4.

There may be alternatives in the first move order on the 4th move for black.

The piece sacrifice 5 ... Na5 does not score well for black. Does he have to play 5 ... Nb8?
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #62 - 12/29/19 at 15:05:28
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kevinludwig wrote on 04/01/19 at 18:47:14:
is 13. Qxb2 playable? E.g.

6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Qxb2 14. Rc1 Nfd7


I looked at that a while ago. I don't much like Black's position after 15. Rc2 Qb6 16. 0-0 e6 17. Rb1 Qc7 18. fxe6 fxe6 19. Bg3.

There's also 12. e5!? Nd7 13. e6 fxe6 14. 0-0 with tremendous compensation for White.
« Last Edit: 12/29/19 at 18:33:11 by Jonathan Tait »  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #61 - 04/01/19 at 18:47:14
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is 13. Qxb2 playable? E.g.

6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Qxb2 14. Rc1 Nfd7
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #60 - 02/18/19 at 21:57:38
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tracke wrote on 02/17/19 at 20:09:43:
Glenn Snow wrote on 02/17/19 at 08:56:02:
Anyone seen The Chigorin Defence: Move by Move by Jimmy Liew.  I'm curious as to how he treats the "refutation".


I‘m not a Chigorin expert and have not regularly followed this thread but probably you mean the Solak line?!
6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Nfd7
14.0-0-0 Qxf2 15.Rhf1 Qb6 16.Bxe5 Nxe5 17.Nd5 Qd8 18.Kb1 White has a clear advantage (Solak)

Here Liew2018 has „[...] but Dean from the ChessPublishing Forum suggested
18...g6 19.Nf6+ exf6 20.Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.Qxa7 b5 22.fxg6 hxg6 23.Rxf6 Bxe7 24.Rf2 Rh4 25.Qe3 Kf8
and Black seems to be alright. It is hard to suggest how White might make progress given Black‘s total control
of the dark squares. Whether all this holds up remains to be seen“



I played a correspondence game last year in this line, which went:
[Event "ESP/MG2/D (ESP)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2017.10.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Evans, Craig"]
[Black "Azevedo, José Manuel P."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D07"]
[WhiteElo "2300"]
[BlackElo "2300"]
[PlyCount "141"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. e4 Bg4 6. Bxc4 Bxf3 7. gxf3 Qxd4
8. Qb3 Ne5 9. Be2 Qb6 10. Qa4+ c6 11. f4 Ned7 12. e5 Nc5 13. Qc2 Nd5 14. Nxd5
cxd5 15. Be3 Qa5+ 16. Kf1 e6 17. Rc1 Nd7 18. Qc7 Qxc7 19. Rxc7 a6 20. Rxb7 Bc5
21. Bxc5 Nxc5 22. Rc7 Nd7 23. Rg1 Kd8 24. Rc6 g6 25. Bxa6 Ke7 26. a4 Ra7 27.
Bb5 f6 28. exf6+ Nxf6 29. Ke2 Nh5 30. f5 gxf5 31. Ke3 Kf6 32. f4 Rb8 33. b3
Rab7 34. b4 Ra8 35. Rb1 Rab8 36. Rbc1 Rg8 37. Rc7 Rxc7 38. Rxc7 Rg4 39. Bc6
Rxf4 40. a5 Rxb4 41. a6 f4+ 42. Kf3 Rb3+ 43. Kg4 Ng7 44. a7 h5+ 45. Kh4 Rb2 46.
Rf7+ Kxf7 47. a8=Q Nf5+ 48. Kh3 Rb3+ 49. Kg2 Rb2+ 50. Kf3 Rxh2 51. Qe8+ Kf6 52.
Bd7 Nd4+ 53. Kxf4 Rh4+ 54. Kg3 Rg4+ 55. Kh3 Re4 56. Qxh5 Ne2 57. Qh8+ Kf5 58.
Qf8+ Ke5 59. Qg7+ Kf5 60. Qf7+ Kg5 61. Qe7+ Kf5 62. Be8 Nf4+ 63. Kg3 Ke5 64.
Qg7+ Kd6 65. Kg4 Ng2+ 66. Kg5 Ne3 67. Qf8+ Ke5 68. Bg6 Rg4+ 69. Kh5 Rc4 70.
Qb8+ Kf6 71. Bd3 1-0

So my opponent deviated from the Solak line for black, but got fairly easily crushed.

In terms of the 'actual' Solak analysis, it is worth pointing out that as well as 12.f5, black needs to try and fix up 12.e5!? and 12.Be3!? - both of these were considerations of mine in that correspondence game had black gone for 11...Ng6, and both of them give white good chances.

However, the bigger problem for black is that 18...g6?! doesn't hold up to scrutiny. 19.Nf6+!? is fine for white to get a material imbalance where he has chances to convert... however, 19.Qb4 looks like the bigger problem for me (or 19.Qa3 with similar ideas) - the knight on d5 is immune due to 19...cxd5 20.Bb5+ with splat on the d-file. 19...Qc8 looks black's only bet, but 20.Qd4 looks pretty promising to me with the threats it creates. My Stockfish (configured for Correspondence chess) on a deep search depth gives white more than +2 in the main lines, with a won exchange and still attacking threats.

Even if black can somehow try to hold this, it's pretty miserable it seems. Solak's line is just Kryptonite to the Chigorin. I seem to recall a few years ago, the only efforts to keep the Chig afloat centred around early deviations from this line?

Hope this is helpful.
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #59 - 02/18/19 at 02:53:23
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Thanks very much for the review tracke.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #58 - 02/17/19 at 20:09:43
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Glenn Snow wrote on 02/17/19 at 08:56:02:
Anyone seen The Chigorin Defence: Move by Move by Jimmy Liew.  I'm curious as to how he treats the "refutation".


I‘m not a Chigorin expert and have not regularly followed this thread but probably you mean the Solak line?!
6.Bxc4 Bxf3 7.gxf3 Qxd4 8.Qb3 Ne5 9.Be2  Qb6 10.Qa4+ c6 11.f4 Ng6 12.f5 Be5 13.Bf4 Nfd7
14.0-0-0 Qxf2 15.Rhf1 Qb6 16.Bxe5 Nxe5 17.Nd5 Qd8 18.Kb1 White has a clear advantage (Solak)

Here Liew2018 has „[...] but Dean from the ChessPublishing Forum suggested
18...g6 19.Nf6+ exf6 20.Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.Qxa7 b5 22.fxg6 hxg6 23.Rxf6 Bxe7 24.Rf2 Rh4 25.Qe3 Kf8
and Black seems to be alright. It is hard to suggest how White might make progress given Black‘s total control
of the dark squares. Whether all this holds up remains to be seen“

Probably you all know better than me about Dean‘s analysis here in the forum/thread ...
I‘m no Chigorin expert though ~10-20 years ago I was forced to watch that crap personally as I’m from the same
chess community as Wisnewski/Scheerer (even team mate for one season). „I’m more the positional player“ and
generally prefer defending instead of counter attacking... And therefore Slav, QGD or QGA.
But after experimenting with some sharp QGA lines I thought that Chigorin as third/fourth weapon might
be interesting and deserves a tryout.

I bought that book in December. Very nice book!
Not sure if this is a must-buy for experienced Chigorin players but certainly a very inspiring and well researched
book for interested club players (1700-2100?). Clear and practical explanations with honest evaluations about
being theoretical in slight pressure but having good chances to defend or more. But not going subjective!
Liew honestly explains where Black has slight problems and White a little something.
Among others the bibliography has Bronznik2005, Morozevich2007, Avrukh2008, Wisneswki/Scheerer2009,
Schandorff2012 and Palliser/Flear/Ward2015. It has not Avrukh2016 but I’m sure Liew used it as you won’t
have much problems (= more Problems than usual) playing against a fan of Avrukh1B!?
I don’t know all the Chigorin analysis out there, but regarding Krush-Marshall, StLouis2010 (p.332f Avrukh2016),
Liew has a suggestion on move 14 not mentioned by Avrukh. - Extensive use of corr games!

IMO a very good and interesting book, at least for its purpose and the targeted level!
4,5 stars out of 5

🙂 tracke

  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #57 - 02/17/19 at 08:56:02
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Anyone seen The Chigorin Defence: Move by Move by Jimmy Liew.  I'm curious as to how he treats the "refutation".
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #56 - 08/04/17 at 06:07:06
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El_Commandante wrote on 08/03/17 at 09:30:41:
Reverse wrote on 08/03/17 at 05:52:56:
I've played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5. Doesn't score well at the high level...but I rarely have anyone actually play critical lines.


I agree. I always considered the line 1d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.Nf3 as the main problem.


I rarely faced that and even when I did, 4...a6 usually flummoxed them...

  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #55 - 08/03/17 at 09:30:41
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Reverse wrote on 08/03/17 at 05:52:56:
I've played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5. Doesn't score well at the high level...but I rarely have anyone actually play critical lines.


I agree. I always considered the line 1d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4 4.Nf3 as the main problem.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.cxd5 Nxd4 may not be adequate at top level, but on my level (ELO 2000) it works quite well.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #54 - 08/03/17 at 05:52:56
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I've played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 e5. Doesn't score well at the high level...but I rarely have anyone actually play critical lines. GM Ben Finegold has a good score with it. All in all, should be fine for open tournaments. Shulman Finegold is  good example.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #53 - 07/20/17 at 14:18:35
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MNb wrote on 07/19/17 at 20:48:30:
No, 20 years ago I had planned 4.Nf3 Bf5. This variation is quite playable, but gives White the kind of two results positions I wanted to avoid with 4.c4 Nb4.
The reason to call the Kieler Variation bad though is 5.a3. I had something ready and it did work in practice, but it didn't survive later silicon scrutiny. Very regrettable.
If you like I can look up the games and post them here; you commenting on them would be great. Or perhaps something for Kaissiber? You decide.

Always interested in controversial lines, this can be fun. In the evening I'll start a thread on the "Kiel Trap" showing the stem game. Some history never hurts... If you share your games, I'll gladly take a look. - 5.a3 N4a6 surely cannot be worse than the Mokele...
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #52 - 07/19/17 at 20:48:30
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No, 20 years ago I had planned 4.Nf3 Bf5. This variation is quite playable, but gives White the kind of two results positions I wanted to avoid with 4.c4 Nb4.
The reason to call the Kieler Variation bad though is 5.a3. I had something ready and it did work in practice, but it didn't survive later silicon scrutiny. Very regrettable.
If you like I can look up the games and post them here; you commenting on them would be great. Or perhaps something for Kaissiber? You decide.
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #51 - 07/19/17 at 13:03:03
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MNb wrote on 07/18/17 at 10:02:27:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/18/17 at 07:02:29:
(with the possible exception of the Englund Gambit  Wink )

Without contradicting you - because I actually agree - I'd like to point out the Kieler Gambit 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4 to you. I think I've the right to do so, because in the 1990's I had a stunning 3,5 out of 4 as Black in corr. chess with this variation (I gave the draw because it was enough to win the group; in the final position I was also better). Pleasant memories!
Compared to that one 1...Nc6 and 2...Nc6 are very, very sound.

I must have studied the "Kieler Falle" a long time ago, can't find the file. It is full of inspiring motifs and positions. I just wondered about 5.d5 and found an amusing line (below). Probably a line already in the books, haven't checked. Elsewhere you've mentioned that 4.Nf3 kills much of the fun. Have you looked at 4...c5? Working from the assumption that 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 cxd4 7.Qxd4 is acceptable for "Kiel Trappers" used to defend slightly worse position, the most likely reply seems to be 5.dxc5 Nc6, and I can't find a win for White.


  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #50 - 07/18/17 at 10:02:27
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/18/17 at 07:02:29:
(with the possible exception of the Englund Gambit  Wink )

Without contradicting you - because I actually agree - I'd like to point out the Kieler Gambit 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4 to you. I think I've the right to do so, because in the 1990's I had a stunning 3,5 out of 4 as Black in corr. chess with this variation (I gave the draw because it was enough to win the group; in the final position I was also better). Pleasant memories!
Compared to that one 1...Nc6 and 2...Nc6 are very, very sound.
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #49 - 07/18/17 at 07:02:29
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CarriedbyGg wrote on 07/17/17 at 17:08:35:
Well...The important question remains.. How much risk does it entail to use this in practice?
Like, I would be tempted to not analyse it further and simply to play the position! But maybe I will also try to set up some training games. But trying to see stuff at the board, not on the screen might be helpful to see the wood here.

I'm sorry if someone expected a quick answer, but I will try to analyse this with some friends and maybe we can draw some conclusions then.

The main point I am trying to make when I post on this site: it is nearly always possible to rescue a difficult variation, you only have to look closer. I guess some regard me as an "engine warrior", but I've got my idea that almost every opening has sufficient resources to be playable (with the possible exception of the Englund Gambit  Wink ) back in the 1970s. True, my variations above are engine-generated, and I posted them just to give your own research a direction.

In an otb game I often fail to remember the details of my analyses. Smiley On the other side, we must be aware that our opponents are also mere humans. If you like the Chigorin, don't give it up. It's such a rich system. I don't know much about it, yet I admire Bronznik's book. A real work of love.

A while ago we've had a long discussion in another thread on 1.d4 Nc6. After my game against Schmidt-Schäffer in the German Ch I told him that chesspub members thought the move 6.Qe2 was critical. His reaction? Very skeptical, to put it mildly. "I'd never find/play such a move." The lesson, I guess, is that PC analysis is fine, as long as we are aware that our opponents rarely find these unnatural/hidden moves.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #48 - 07/17/17 at 18:46:58
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You definitely seem to be risking having a fun game Smiley
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #47 - 07/17/17 at 17:08:35
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Well...The important question remains.. How much risk does it entail to use this in practice?
Like, I would be tempted to not analyse it further and simply to play the position! But maybe I will also try to set up some training games. But trying to see stuff at the board, not on the screen might be helpful to see the wood here.

I'm sorry if someone expected a quick answer, but I will try to analyse this with some friends and maybe we can draw some conclusions then.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #46 - 07/12/17 at 13:51:28
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Perhaps I can use some Chigorin stuff after 1.d4 Nc6 in the future. I don't think 1...Nc6 is necessarily worse than the Chigorin. 

CarriedbyGg wrote on 07/11/17 at 21:02:20:
Ahh, forgot something very funny. Try 10. b4!? and Stockfish will give g5 11. bxa5 e6!! 12. Bxc4 for whatever reason!

In your long line after 16. Bg3 I would take White in the end. Black should be able to hold being two exchanges up and with White's king on f3, but it looks not that easy for me. White's bishops are monsters and the pawns should not be underestimated either.

There is another line that is just as funny: 10.g4!? hoping for 10...Bxg4? 11.Rg1 when the open g-file is unpleasant for Black.

Below I add some variations.

  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #45 - 07/11/17 at 21:02:20
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Ahh, forgot something very funny. Try 10. b4!? and Stockfish will give g5 11. bxa5 e6!! 12. Bxc4 for whatever reason!

In your long line after 16. Bg3 I would take White in the end. Black should be able to hold being two exchanges up and with White's king on f3, but it looks not that easy for me. White's bishops are monsters and the pawns should not be underestimated either.

Positions after 9. ... Nh5 remind me of the Semi-Slav Anti-Moscow. It looks so ridicolous for Black, playing Na5 and Nh5 to win one single pawn but somehow White's center looks overextended and his pieces lack coordination.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #44 - 07/11/17 at 20:48:23
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10. e6 looks maybe a bit premature. What about

10. Nd4?
10 ... Nf4 is met by Qf3 maybe even followed by 0-0-0 (after g5 probably?) while the (to my eyes better)
10. ... g6 11. g3! Bg7 12. f4 0-0 13. Bg2 looks like really decent compensation to me. Of course, it's very complicated, but man oh man, Black has to be brave here. On the other hand, White can eaaasily overplay his hand here! Smiley

So, for now I cannot find a reparation for my beloved 9. ... b4 move and will turn to 9. ... Nh5 instead. Nice discovery, Mr Bücker! You should have played Nc6 in a different kind of way at the DM Smiley
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #43 - 07/11/17 at 08:03:14
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CarriedbyGg wrote on 07/10/17 at 21:02:02:
Continuing your first line, 13. Qa4 Nd5 14. 0-0-0 Nxc3 15. bc g5 16.Bg3 with things like Nd2-e4/c4 to follow look a bit dangerous for Black.

It seems risky indeed, for both sides: 16.Bg3 Nxc6 17.Nd2 Rb8 18.h4 Bd7 19.Ne4 Be7, for example 20.Nf6+ (20.Qxa6 0-0 21.hxg5 Na5 22.Rxh6 Rfd8 23.Rd4 Bb5 forces White to give eternal check) 20...Bxf6 21.exf6 e5 22.Bxc4 Bf5 23.hxg5 0-0 24.g6 Bxg6 25.Rxh6 Rb1+ 26.Kd2 Rd8+ 27.Ke2 Rdxd1 28.Rxg6+ Kf8 29.Rh6 Re1+ 30.Kf3 Rh1 31.Qa3+ Ke8 32.Rg6 e4+ 33.Kxe4 Rhe1+ 34.Kf3 Nd4+ 35.cxd4 Qb7+ 36.d5 fxg6 37.Bf4 g5, Black is able to hold the ending.

CarriedbyGg wrote on 07/10/17 at 21:02:02:
9. .. Nh5 looks really interesting and certainly in the spirit of the Chigorin! I really like the variation 10. e6 Qd6 11. Nd4 (looks more active than Nd2) g6 12. Qf3 when Qf4 fails due to d6!, but Rh7!! looks like a move I would really really like to play in an OTB game.
It continues to amaze me what is playable.

After 10.e6 Qd6 11.Nd4 I'd suggest 11...Nf4 12.Bg3 (12.Qf3 Qe5+, about =) 12...g5 13.Be2 Bg7 and I don't see how White can get an advantage.

Yes, the Chigorin is full of surprises.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #42 - 07/10/17 at 21:02:02
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Continuing your first line, 13. Qa4 Nd5 14. 0-0-0 Nxc3 15. bc g5 16.Bg3 with things like Nd2-e4/c4 to follow look a bit dangerous for Black.

I will look at 15. b4 tomorrow.

9. .. Nh5 looks really interesting and certainly in the spirit of the Chigorin! I really like the variation 10. e6 Qd6 11. Nd4 (looks more active than Nd2) g6 12. Qf3 when Qf4 fails due to d6!, but Rh7!! looks like a move I would really really like to play in an OTB game.
It continues to amaze me what is playable.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #41 - 07/10/17 at 20:36:16
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Against 11.dxc6, I don't see much of an advantage after 11...Qc7! (instead of 11...Qb6?!) 12.Qxb4 e6 13.Qa4 Nd5.

The original suggestion 11.exf6 bxc3 12.b4 cxb3 13.axb3 exf6 14.Bd3 seems more critical, and if 14...Be6, the reply 15.b4! looks strong.

But I wonder why there is not a single game in the database with 9...Nh5!. Looks "totally unclear" to me: (a) 10.e6 Qd6 11.Nd2 g6, or (b) 10.Be2 g5 11.e6 Bg7 12.Bxg5 fxe6 13.Ne5 0-0. Every variation seems to peter out to a draw, or worse.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #40 - 07/10/17 at 20:08:01
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So, these were my first tries with a board and afterwards some checking.

Then I let my PC run for a while and he came up with:



There are several ways in which White may get a little plus (nothing too fancy though) But I think that it is not worth the amount of time remembering the analysis because it can get quite messy in some lines (f.e. Qxc6) and there are easier ways for White to get an edge in the Chigorin (which of course is another matter, but it definitely needs less preparation)
Problem is, Rd1 would be a pretty nice move if Black is unprepared as he can go wrong quickly. But I do not think you will get an unprepared opponent in this line (else he probably deserves to lose?) However, I should add that I first overlooked Rd1 too Smiley

Nice move! Interesting positions, definitely. But I do not think it is as challenging as my main line with 14. Bd3.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #39 - 07/10/17 at 14:49:00
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Interesting analysis. I'll give you another line to worry about  Cheesy :

  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #38 - 07/10/17 at 09:40:23
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I could have opened up a new thread about this, but I think this is the big Chigorin thread of late on this forum. I had a hard time searching for a way to counter the line Avrukh proposed in his book (I'm thinking of the 2008 one, as I sadly to not own the newer one)
Here is my summary of this line.



As you can see, the difficult part is in assessing the variations after 14. Bd3. It would be nice if some other enthusiastic analysts could help, because if this is fixed I think one can play the Chigorin with faith!
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #37 - 11/11/16 at 16:03:55
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katar wrote on 05/25/13 at 18:32:29:
ArKheiN,

Good spot.  The transposition to Goring Gambit declined is well known by players of Chigorin QGD and mentioned in at least 3 Chigorin books.  The transposition is more common from the 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 move order, but it arrives at the same position.


Yes, it is well known. Watson mentions it in his 1981 book on the Chigorin, and I'm sure it goes back further than that. Very likely Chigorin noticed the transposition himself.

The people it doesn't tend to be known by are 1 d4 players who land up in this position. Naturally not; otherwise they wouldn't play this way, seeing as Black has all the chances here – after Capablanca's 9...Qc4! Black scores 59.4% from 588 games in MegaBase.

Coincidentally, I've been writing a blogpost about this very subject. I might go and finish that now Smiley

Edit: Okay, done that: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/005-different-gambit-declined.html
« Last Edit: 11/12/16 at 14:32:47 by Jonathan Tait »  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #36 - 11/11/16 at 08:15:27
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The only problem I see in the line played in Aronian - Rapport is that even if it is fully playable and promises dynamic equality, White can simply sidestep it by playing

1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3! where Black does not really have anything better than 4. ... dc or the ugly 4. ... e6, committing to a poor Queen's Gambit declined.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #35 - 11/10/16 at 20:36:58
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deeplose wrote on 11/09/16 at 20:04:18:
Hi

Any news on Solak's analysis in the 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Bc4!?
The more I look at it the more I think this variation is ugly for black!
Do you think there is another way to get a playable position as black against 3.Nc3?

Thanks in advance.


John Watson has recommended 3...e6 in a video series on the Chigorin.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #34 - 11/10/16 at 13:40:45
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https://chess24.com/de/watch/live-tournaments/european-club-cup-2016/3/1/2

Richard Rapport, the modern hero of this variation won against Aronian in the Regent ECCC. You can see the game by following the link. I have to say that this was a very impressive win by Rapport in a line that was supposed to be equal at best for Black. maybe this shows that it isn't as easy as it seems, though Aronian probably wasn't prepared for that line. His e3 looks a bit passive to me.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #33 - 11/09/16 at 20:04:18
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Hi

Any news on Solak's analysis in the 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Bc4!?
The more I look at it the more I think this variation is ugly for black!
Do you think there is another way to get a playable position as black against 3.Nc3?

Thanks in advance.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #32 - 05/25/13 at 21:39:36
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Thank you for the reply Smiley
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #31 - 05/25/13 at 20:17:28
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Via 3. cd it has also been mentioned in at least one non-Chigorin book:  NCO.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #30 - 05/25/13 at 18:32:29
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ArKheiN,

Good spot.  The transposition to Goring Gambit declined is well known by players of Chigorin QGD and mentioned in at least 3 Chigorin books.  The transposition is more common from the 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 move order, but it arrives at the same position.

Bronznik (Schachverlag, 2005) at page 197: "Suddenly a polsition from the Goring Gambit Declined has occurred, which is considered to be harmless for Black."

Chigorin Acc. to Morozevich (NIC, 2007) at page 21.

Wisnewski/Scheerer (Everyman, 2007) at page 193.
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #29 - 05/25/13 at 17:40:46
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Hello, I have noticed a quite funny transposition. I didn't want to open a new thread just for that, so I reopen the last thread on the Chigorin.

Here is a Connexion between the Chigorin and the Scotch gambit. I noticed it today while I was playing the black side of a blitz, and I remember to have seen a position very similar in another opening, and after checking, it's the same position!

Here was my game: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6!? (I think the Chigorin is indeed in a good shape against an early Nf3, but not against an early Nc3 without Nf3) 3.c4 Bg4 4.e3 (not very challenging, the 3thd move in popularity) 4..e5 (more played and ambitious than 4..e6) 5.cxd4 (the third played move here, the most played move is 5.dxe5 but with bad statistics according to chesslive; 5.Be2 is the second most played move) 5..Qxd4 6.Nc3 (the most played move) 6..Bb4 7.Be2 (the most played with 124 games in chesslive). And now I have played the most popular and natural move here: 7..exd4 and he played the more popular and natural too: 8.exd4 (8.0-0 is a possible alternative, and the second most played move here). And at this moment I have recognized the position without being sure of the exact transposition. We have reached one of the main defense (recommanded in some books for Black) against the Scotch gambit!

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 d5 5.exd5 Qxd4 6.cxd4 Bg4 7.Be2 Bb4+ 8.Nc3

where the best move now is 8..Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Qc4 with a good game for Black. There is about 1000 games and about 50 games from Chigorin's move order from chesslive database.

Was this transposition known by anyone here? Was it showed in any book?
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #28 - 01/18/13 at 10:25:49
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Reverse wrote on 01/26/12 at 22:26:44:
what about 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5

I have played this in a few rapid games and found the my opponents had never seen it before, so neither player really knew what theory said was best.

I new a guy from the local club who said that avrukh gave this move as a sideline and thus just sort brushed over missing a bunch of stuff. I'm not sure about that. The guy i refer to has moved away, so im not so sure what he was talking about.


Avrukh spends about a page on this line

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.cxd5 Nxd4 5.e3 Nf5 6.Bb5+ [Bronznik mentions only 6.Nf3 in his very brief coverage of 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 where he claims white gets an edge]  6..Bd7 7.Qb3! (Avrukh's exclam)

He analyses 7...Nd6 and 7...Nf6 and claims an edge for white in both cases. Mentions 7...b6 but does not analyse it.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #27 - 01/26/12 at 22:26:44
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what about 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5

I have played this in a few rapid games and found the my opponents had never seen it before, so neither player really knew what theory said was best.

I new a guy from the local club who said that avrukh gave this move as a sideline and thus just sort brushed over missing a bunch of stuff. I'm not sure about that. The guy i refer to has moved away, so im not so sure what he was talking about.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #26 - 11/08/11 at 21:07:24
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I think you are right in that the line is very dangerous for black, but I'm not convinced that it is that much theoretically.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #25 - 11/08/11 at 02:36:20
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@Dean, you may be right.  But this only means that Black is less busted in this variation!
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #24 - 11/05/11 at 12:40:41
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I think your analysis has (at least) one big flaw.

The position after "(15...  Qb6 16.  Bxe5 Nxe5 17.  Nd5 Qd8 18.  Kb1!+/- )"
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

is not won for white. In fact I doubt that white even get any real winning chances after:

18... g6 19. Nf6+ exf6 20. Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.Qxa7 b5

For example 22. fxg6 hxg6 23. Rxf6 Be7 24. Rf2 Rh4 25. Qe3 Kf8 and white's only winning chance is creating a free a-pawn but it seems a bit difficult to coordinate due to the strong e5 knight and white pawn weaknesses.

proustiskeen wrote on 10/30/11 at 03:10:57:
I've edited down the file to just my analysis of the critical position after 11...Ng6, coupled with Solak's original analysis.  Hopefully this looks better in the flash player.



  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #23 - 10/31/11 at 18:46:26
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proustiskeen wrote on 10/31/11 at 17:59:02:
Solak does continue his analysis after 9.Be3:

9...Na5 (9...Qe5 10.Bxf7+/-) 10.Be6+!! fxe6 11.Qb5 Qc4 12.Qxa5 Qxa6 (12...a6 13.Rc1 +/-) 13.Qxa6 bxa6 14.Rc1 +/-


So he does! Sorry, my mistake. I only read the first section of the pdf and didn't realise he returned to the position later on.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #22 - 10/31/11 at 17:59:02
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Solak does continue his analysis after 9.Be3:

9...Na5 (9...Qe5 10.Bxf7+/-) 10.Be6+!! fxe6 11.Qb5 Qc4 12.Qxa5 Qxa6 (12...a6 13.Rc1 +/-) 13.Qxa6 bxa6 14.Rc1 +/-
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #21 - 10/31/11 at 16:11:46
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Vass wrote on 10/28/11 at 10:42:00:
But Chigorin players need to be aware of the new 'refutation' offered by Solak in Informant 110.  There he analyzes 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Bc4!?, correcting some erroneous analysis by Morozevich (p.188) along the way.


Actually, I wonder if this correction of Morozevich's analysis really stands up.

8...0-0-0 9.Bf7 e5 10.Be3 Qb4 is given in The Chigorin Defence According to Morozevich (2007), but Solak claims that after 9.Be3! black is in trouble. He doesn't continue his analysis of this line, though, and after 9...Na5 10 Bxd4 Nxb3 11 axb3 Rxd4, Black's position appears playable. Perhaps the critical follow-up is 12 Rxa7 Kb8 13 Bxf7 Kxa7 14 Nb5+ Kb6 15 Nxd4, and now 15... g6 – or possibly even 15...e5 – leaves Black with compensation for his pawn, in the form of his active King position and White's damaged pawn structure. Black can subsequently clamp down on f4 with his Bishop and Knight, for example. This looks to me like the sort of murky, unbalanced position that Chigorin players should be happy to play, and it certainly looks to be far from a refutation.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #20 - 10/31/11 at 03:56:00
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/31/11 at 01:58:50:
Markovich wrote on 10/30/11 at 05:41:24:
Dear me. It would seem then that 1.d4, 2.c4 is a mistake.


Grin


If this is busted, time to hang up the board and pieces.  Smiley
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #19 - 10/31/11 at 01:58:50
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Markovich wrote on 10/30/11 at 05:41:24:
Dear me. It would seem then that 1.d4, 2.c4 is a mistake.


Grin
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #18 - 10/30/11 at 18:48:22
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proustiskeen wrote on 10/30/11 at 15:29:03:
Markovich, 1.d4 and 2.Nf3 are no better, so I think 1.d4 must be abandoned.  Back to the e-pawn.  Smiley

SmyslovFan, White certainly keeps an edge in a lot of the lines I posted.  But not all chess is played via e-mail or postcard.  Assuming my OTB opponents know about Solak's line, or Avrukh's line, I am still happy to play them as I'm willing to bet that I'll know the positions better.  (Plus 19...Qa3 is still in reserve!)

I remember there was some to-do here and in the ChessVibes review about Ftacnik's book on the Najdorf.  Apparently his main line vs Bg5 ends up in a OCB endgame that is slightly better for White, but holdable for black.  I'm no Ftacnik, but then, you're not paying $34.95 for the analysis.  Wink  Sometimes a draw is a good result for Black.


Oh, the Ftacnik endgame is lost. There are sidelines for white in his analysis that also lead to +-. You should just  play the old main line and go for h6 an the Browne variation only against 10. Bd3. Ftacnik tried to avoid the positions after 10 g4 with 7... h6?! but it didn't work out. It's still a decent book. He just didn't go in depth enough for 6. Be2 an the English attack. And his main 6. Bg5 recommendation lost. I loved how he called the c3 Sicilian a "Forrest Gump" opening.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #17 - 10/30/11 at 15:47:11
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Isn't this even scarier over the board? Ok, if you're sure you'll still remember it by the time it comes up but if not must be a few ways to get wiped out.

And yes an awful lot of respectable theoretical lines seem to end up in slightly better endings for white as thats rather logical really. Suspect the point was that this one seemed rather bad as these things go.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #16 - 10/30/11 at 15:29:03
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Markovich, 1.d4 and 2.Nf3 are no better, so I think 1.d4 must be abandoned.  Back to the e-pawn.  Smiley

SmyslovFan, White certainly keeps an edge in a lot of the lines I posted.  But not all chess is played via e-mail or postcard.  Assuming my OTB opponents know about Solak's line, or Avrukh's line, I am still happy to play them as I'm willing to bet that I'll know the positions better.  (Plus 19...Qa3 is still in reserve!)

I remember there was some to-do here and in the ChessVibes review about Ftacnik's book on the Najdorf.  Apparently his main line vs Bg5 ends up in a OCB endgame that is slightly better for White, but holdable for black.  I'm no Ftacnik, but then, you're not paying $34.95 for the analysis.  Wink  Sometimes a draw is a good result for Black.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #15 - 10/30/11 at 08:26:40
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Just to precise you: in your 26 Rb3 line, White is not 'a solid pawn up', nor even a shaky pawn for that matter.
  

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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #14 - 10/30/11 at 08:01:22
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If ProustisKeen is correct and this is Black's best line in the Chigorin, then it is indeed busted.

White is very close to winning material after 26.Rb6. This is certainly the sort of position I would not mind playing as white in a main-line opening.

I'm not saying that Black loses by force. I am saying that if this really is the final word on the Chigorin, it won't be played anymore.

Of course, those are a bunch of big "ifs". There are many other variations that Black can test out. But if Black ever wanders into this line in a serious correspondence game, I would give white better than even odds of winning.

Just so we know what we're talking about, here's a game fragment I've been analysing to illustrate the point that Black is really in deep trouble here:


It seems that Black is praying for an OCB ending by taking advantage of the White rook on e5. However, White can trade off only one of the rooks. This really is a thankless defense that I would not want to try to hold against an experienced correspondence player.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #13 - 10/30/11 at 05:41:24
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Dear me. It would seem then that 1.d4, 2.c4 is a mistake.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #12 - 10/30/11 at 03:10:57
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I've edited down the file to just my analysis of the critical position after 11...Ng6, coupled with Solak's original analysis.  Hopefully this looks better in the flash player.


« Last Edit: 10/30/11 at 05:39:53 by Markovich »  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #11 - 10/30/11 at 03:09:17
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At the risk of no one caring, I'm reposting a slightly edited file of Solak's analysis (hattip to Chesscafe and their game viewer, where you can download .pgns of all the articles on their site) coupled with my analysis of the Solak line. 

Summary: 11...Ng6 is better than he thinks, and may well allow Black to hold on.  The Chigorin lives yet!
  

d07_solak_inf110.pgn ( 5 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #10 - 10/29/11 at 03:17:26
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Chesscafe has actually made Solak's analysis available in .pgn format (via the game viewer).  Does anyone object to my reposting it here so that we might have a go at busting his bust?
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #9 - 10/28/11 at 11:01:11
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I have played the Chigorin as Black OTB. Once, I beat a guy after playing the opening rather poorly, but got chances later on. He was really upset and said I should playing it.

Anyway, I nowadays play mainly the Slav, but my intention has been to prepare to play 1 ...Nc6 in response to 1.Nf3 (since I also aim for the Spanish as Black).
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #8 - 10/28/11 at 10:42:00
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proustiskeen wrote on 10/28/11 at 01:45:05:
3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 e5!? is fairly well analyzed (see Bronznik, p.113; Morozevich doesn't use this move order) and Black should be fine.

As gwnn suggests, Black faces more problems with 3 Nc3 dxc4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 e4 Bg4.  Here 6.d5 Ne5 7.Bf4 Ng6 (7...Bxf3!? with crazy complications)  8.Be3 e5 9.Bxc4 is important and Bronznik says that Black has 'sufficient chances for counterplay.'

The old main line 6.Be3 e6 (6...Bxf3 7.gxf3 e5 8.d5 Ne7 [Nb8!?] 9.Qa4 Qd7 10.Qxd7 Kxd7! - Bronznik) 7.Bxc4 Bb4 8.Qc2 0-0 9.Rd1 is critical.  There's lots of theory here, but Black seems to be ok.  9...Qe7 may be best.

But Chigorin players need to be aware of the new 'refutation' offered by Solak in Informant 110.  There he analyzes 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Bc4!?, correcting some erroneous analysis by Morozevich (p.188) along the way.

I think that things are not as dire as Solak suggests, but a lot of homework is needed to confirm this.  In any event, Chigorin players now need to be aware of this variation as well as Avrukh's line.

Hmm.. It seems things are pretty dire.  Embarrassed
I read this analysis - found it in the net (http://www.chesscafe.com/text/informant112.pdf) It's very good.
I played Chigorin as black and loved that opening.. I still play it in rapid or blitz.. But, after reading this analysis...I'm not sure I'll continue with it.  Undecided
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #7 - 10/28/11 at 01:45:05
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3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 e5!? is fairly well analyzed (see Bronznik, p.113; Morozevich doesn't use this move order) and Black should be fine.

As gwnn suggests, Black faces more problems with 3 Nc3 dxc4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 e4 Bg4.  Here 6.d5 Ne5 7.Bf4 Ng6 (7...Bxf3!? with crazy complications)  8.Be3 e5 9.Bxc4 is important and Bronznik says that Black has 'sufficient chances for counterplay.'

The old main line 6.Be3 e6 (6...Bxf3 7.gxf3 e5 8.d5 Ne7 [Nb8!?] 9.Qa4 Qd7 10.Qxd7 Kxd7! - Bronznik) 7.Bxc4 Bb4 8.Qc2 0-0 9.Rd1 is critical.  There's lots of theory here, but Black seems to be ok.  9...Qe7 may be best.

But Chigorin players need to be aware of the new 'refutation' offered by Solak in Informant 110.  There he analyzes 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.e4 Bg4 6.Bc4!?, correcting some erroneous analysis by Morozevich (p.188) along the way.

I think that things are not as dire as Solak suggests, but a lot of homework is needed to confirm this.  In any event, Chigorin players now need to be aware of this variation as well as Avrukh's line.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #6 - 10/27/11 at 21:17:58
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gwnn wrote on 05/11/11 at 21:02:37:
I got hold of the elegant but I'm sure outdated 1996 book by Dunnington. He already says that 5 .. e5! gives Black an easy game. However, his mainline is 5 e4, and following Appolonov-Masternak 1992 (http://www.365chess.com/view_game.php?g=1959012) he thinks White can get an advantage. He therefore thinks 3 .. dxc4 is best. I know that there are other problem lines in the Chigorin, however, and many of them are not covered in this book at all (3 Nc3 dxc4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 e4 Bg4 6 d5 with a later Bf4 eventually transposing to a QGA, "miserable Karpov-Milov" <- John Cox earlier on these forums).


In the game Appolonov-Masternak black could have played 7...exd4 8cxd4 Bg4 9d5 Bb4+ and black has a good game
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #5 - 05/11/11 at 21:02:37
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I got hold of the elegant but I'm sure outdated 1996 book by Dunnington. He already says that 5 .. e5! gives Black an easy game. However, his mainline is 5 e4, and following Appolonov-Masternak 1992 (http://www.365chess.com/view_game.php?g=1959012) he thinks White can get an advantage. He therefore thinks 3 .. dxc4 is best. I know that there are other problem lines in the Chigorin, however, and many of them are not covered in this book at all (3 Nc3 dxc4 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 e4 Bg4 6 d5 with a later Bf4 eventually transposing to a QGA, "miserable Karpov-Milov" <- John Cox earlier on these forums).
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #4 - 05/06/11 at 20:29:50
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Papageno wrote on 05/06/11 at 19:29:53:
I'm still slightly surprised about this variation in Avrukh's book. If he had chosen
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3
as his main recommendation instead, then White still has pretty much the same lines at his disposal as in the book. (And the white player rules out the 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 e5 (!) line this way.)

That's what I put down in my notes about this chapter. Am I overlooking something? Black of course has minor additional possibilities like 4.Nf3 e6 5.Bg5, but I don't think that this is what he's aiming at.


That's a good point and apparently Lars Schandorff thought the same as it's his recommendation in Playing the Queen's Gambit - A Grandmaster Guide.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #3 - 05/06/11 at 19:29:53
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I'm still slightly surprised about this variation in Avrukh's book. If he had chosen
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3
as his main recommendation instead, then White still has pretty much the same lines at his disposal as in the book. (And the white player rules out the 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 e5 (!) line this way.)

That's what I put down in my notes about this chapter. Am I overlooking something? Black of course has minor additional possibilities like 4.Nf3 e6 5.Bg5, but I don't think that this is what he's aiming at.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #2 - 05/06/11 at 18:43:53
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I looked at 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 e5!? for awhile with the help of Houdini and couldn't find an advantage for White either.  I'm inclined to annotate 5...e5 with an "!" rather than "!?" now.  It continues to amaze me what's playable.
  
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Re: Chigorin - still in good shape?
Reply #1 - 05/06/11 at 17:05:31
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Why don't post it replayable with the pgn tool?
  
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Chigorin - still in good shape?
05/06/11 at 13:31:47
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One week ago I played a game against the chigorin-system; I assumed with the help of avrukh this system is in trouble and was surprised about black´s possibilities:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 [3...dxc4!? 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bg5 h6 (5...Nd5; 5...a6) ] 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Nf3 e5!? 6.dxe5 Bb4 [6...Be6!? 7.Bg5 Qd7 8.e4 Nxc3 9.Qxd7+ Bxd7 10.bxc3 Bc5 11.Bc4] 7.Bd2!? [7.a3 Ba5!? (7...Nxc3 8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 9.axb4 Nxb4 10.Bg5+ Ke8 11.Rc1 Nb5 12.e4 c6) 8.Bg5 (8.Qc2 Nxc3 9.b4 Nxb4 10.axb4 Bxb4 11.Bd2 Nd5 12.e4 Bxd2+ 13.Qxd2 Nb6 14.Qc3) 8...Nxc3 9.Qxd8+ Nxd8 10.Bd2 Nc6 11.Bxc3 Bxc3+ 12.bxc3 Bg4] 7...Nxc3 8.bxc3 Ba5N [8...Bc5 9.Bf4 (9.Qb3!? 0–0 10.Rd1) ] 9.Qa4!? [9.g3!? Qe7 10.Bg2 0–0 (10...Nxe5 11.Qa4++-) 11.Qa4 Bb6 12.Bf4] 9...0–0 10.e3 Bb6 11.Qf4 Qe7 12.Bc4 Be6 13.Bb5?! Qc5! 14.Bxc6 Qxc6 15.0–0 Rad8 [15...Bc4!?] 16.Rfd1 Bc4 17.Nd4 Qd7?! [17...Qc5!?] 18.Be1 [18.Nf5!? Be6 19.e4] 18...c5? [18...Rfe8!?÷; 18...f6÷] 19.Nf3? [19.Nf5! Qe6™ (19...Qxd1 20.Qg5) 20.f3²] 19...Qb5?! [19...Bd3!? 20.Rd2 c4³] 20.a4 Qa6 21.Rd6ƒ Be2 22.Ng5“ Rxd6“ 23.exd6 Bd8 24.Ne4 Qc6 25.Ng3 Bd3 26.e4!? Re8 27.f3!? Bf6 28.Nf5!‚ Kf8 29.Qd2?! [29.Bh4! Bxh4 (29...Bxc3 30.Be7+ Kg8 31.Ra3 Bd4+ 32.Nxd4 cxd4 33.Rxd3+-) 30.Qxh4 h6 31.Qg3 g6 32.Nxh6+-] 29...c4 30.Bg3 Both players have less than two minutes left. 30...g6 31.Qh6+ Kg8 32.Kh1?! [32.e5! Qc5+ 33.Qe3 Qxe3+ 34.Nxe3 Bd8 35.Re1+-] 32...Bxc3 33.Ne7+ Rxe7 34.dxe7 Bg7 35.Qf4+- Seconds! 35...f5 36.exf5 gxf5 37.Re1 Qe8 38.Qg5 [38.Qb8+-] 38...Kf7 39.Qh5+ 1–0

5. ...e5 was mentioned by avrukh, but just a few lines only. It seems, Black gets a good game. After 8. ...Ba5 starts the first critical position - what are your thoughts? With 9.Qa4 I tried to hold the e5-pawn to get compensation for my weakend queenside and my clumsy Bd2. With 12.Bc4 Be6 we get the second critical position - how to proceed? My 13th and 14th move was rather weak, but otb I found nothing better and I still have problems to find a leitmotif. Okay, the rest is a bonus, because obviously I didnt play the best moves and Black had the chance to get the upper hand.
  

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