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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C47: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?! (Read 18507 times)
MNb
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #20 - 05/13/11 at 16:28:46
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/13/11 at 10:14:21:
6.Be3 Bb6 7.Qd2!? 0-0 8.0-0-0 with a very sharp game.

I don't like this. The best Bb6 can do is getting exchanged against Be3. White will have more space and will find it easier to advance the kingside pawns.
  

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SWJediknight
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #19 - 05/13/11 at 10:14:21
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I still think 5...Bc5 is worth a look for those dissatisfied with the relative sterility of some of the lines arising from 5...Bb4.  I don't have Emms's "Play the Open Games as Black" on me at the moment unfortunately, but Abby Marshall's coverage is rather different to what I remember from Emms (6.Be3 Bb6 7.Qd2!? 0-0 8.0-0-0 with a very sharp game, I remember Emms had one line where White castled kingside and Black ended up the aggressor with ...g5).  I don't think Black equalises with as much certainty here either, though.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #18 - 05/12/11 at 22:09:00
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I consider that the Scotch Four Knights with ...d6 is not good because White has the strong plan of f2-f4 and after sufficient preparations, e4-e5.  There's a lot of chess there, I admit, but I think that White must be able to keep some advantage that way.  Black should play ...d5 and tough it out in the main lines, with moves like ...Rb8.
  

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OstapBender
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #17 - 05/12/11 at 11:31:43
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For a free resource, there's an Abby Marshall column on the Scotch Four Knights at ChessCafe:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/abby10.pdf. 
It's written more from White's perspective than Black's, but you still might want to take a look.

The column focuses on 7...d5 but also mentions 7...d6 (as well as 7...0-0 which can tranpose after a later ...d6).

White often plays 8.Bg5 instead of 8.0-0 played in the Burg-Naiditsch game.  After 8...h6 9.Bh4 0–0 10.0–0 Re8 11.f4 Bb7 ECO (in 1995) gives 12.Qf3, but Marshall's column recommends that White play 12.Ne2 commenting "The knight moves over to the kingside for an attack, and Black's bishop is looking silly."

BTW: You can find the Burg-Naiditsch game annotated at:
http://www.thechessmind.net/storage/chess-posts/burg_naiditsch_2010.htm
  

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cynima
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #16 - 05/12/11 at 10:20:49
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MNb wrote on 05/12/11 at 03:12:09:
Burg,T (2449) - Naiditsch,A (2691) [C47]
Deizisau GER, 14th Neckar-Open Deizisau GER (4), 03.04.2010

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bb4 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 d6 8.0-0 Ng4 9.Be2 Qh4 10.Bf4 h5 11.Qd3 Qf6 12.Qc4 Bxc3 13.Qxc6+ Ke7 14.Qxa8 Bxb2 15.Rab1 Qxf4 16.g3 Qe5 17.c3 Nxh2 18.Rfd1 h4 19.Rxb2 hxg3 20.Qxa7 gxf2+ 21.Qxf2 Rh6 22.Qe3 Rh3 23.Qf2 Qg5+ 0-1



Thank you!
  
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MNb
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #15 - 05/12/11 at 03:12:09
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Burg,T (2449) - Naiditsch,A (2691) [C47]
Deizisau GER, 14th Neckar-Open Deizisau GER (4), 03.04.2010

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bb4 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 d6 8.0-0 Ng4 9.Be2 Qh4 10.Bf4 h5 11.Qd3 Qf6 12.Qc4 Bxc3 13.Qxc6+ Ke7 14.Qxa8 Bxb2 15.Rab1 Qxf4 16.g3 Qe5 17.c3 Nxh2 18.Rfd1 h4 19.Rxb2 hxg3 20.Qxa7 gxf2+ 21.Qxf2 Rh6 22.Qe3 Rh3 23.Qf2 Qg5+ 0-1
  

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cynima
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #14 - 05/11/11 at 22:44:22
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Fllg wrote on 05/11/11 at 16:36:41:
cynima wrote on 05/10/11 at 20:49:18:
Fllg wrote on 05/10/11 at 19:43:51:
cynima wrote on 05/10/11 at 17:38:29:
Yes for me it is worth the trouble because I hate playing against Scotch Four Knights mainline


If you hate the mainline 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bb4 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 d5 8.exd5 than 7.Bd3 d6!? is relatively rare but sound alternative. This has been analysed by Gustafsson on his DVD on the open games as Black.


Thank you for that!
Maybe you have some variations, Key games for me?
Thx!


Burg-Naiditsch, Neckar Open 2010 is a good illustration despite the fact that Black outrated his opponent by more than 200 points.

I think what Markovich meant was that every chessplayer should be able to play the open positions resulting from the mainline well. Otherwise you may have a deficiency in your chess education.

@ Markovich

Don´t be so hard. At least he is playing the open games...  Wink



Can someone please post this game, I do not find it online.
And does anyone have some analysis on 4. ..Bb4/ 4. ...Bc5 ?
  
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Markovich
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #13 - 05/11/11 at 18:05:37
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I didn't mean to point my "give up chess" remark quite as directly at the OP as it may have seemed that I did; my apologies.  I was trying to convey a more general sense.
  

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Fllg
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #12 - 05/11/11 at 16:36:41
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cynima wrote on 05/10/11 at 20:49:18:
Fllg wrote on 05/10/11 at 19:43:51:
cynima wrote on 05/10/11 at 17:38:29:
Yes for me it is worth the trouble because I hate playing against Scotch Four Knights mainline


If you hate the mainline 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bb4 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 d5 8.exd5 than 7.Bd3 d6!? is relatively rare but sound alternative. This has been analysed by Gustafsson on his DVD on the open games as Black.


Thank you for that!
Maybe you have some variations, Key games for me?
Thx!


Burg-Naiditsch, Neckar Open 2010 is a good illustration despite the fact that Black outrated his opponent by more than 200 points.

I think what Markovich meant was that every chessplayer should be able to play the open positions resulting from the mainline well. Otherwise you may have a deficiency in your chess education.

@ Markovich

Don´t be so hard. At least he is playing the open games...  Wink
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #11 - 05/11/11 at 14:42:55
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According to Watson, Jan Pinski found a fairly promising line against 4...Bc5: 5.0-0 0-0 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.d4 Bd6 8.f4 Nc6 9.e5 Be7 10.d5 Nb4 11.exf6 Bxf6 12.Bc4 Qe7 13.Kh1.
http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_jw/jw_four_knights.html
I don't know of any refutation of 5...Bc5 (although it doesn't equalise with as much certainty as 5...Bb4- Watson merely mentions that White has some interesting play) so for now I would tend to suggest that line or maybe the 7...d6 suggested by Flig- I certainly wouldn't trust 4...Bb4.

It's worth noting that even John Emms (in his "Play the Open Games as Black") acknowledged that some players might not feel at home in the main line of the Scotch Four Knights, so the issue is known at GM level, hence his alternative suggestion of 5...Bc5 (although I do think the main line is objectively best).
  
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cynima
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #10 - 05/11/11 at 09:00:05
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Markovich wrote on 05/10/11 at 22:44:35:
[quote author=45757E647973727364160 link=1305037598/7#7 date=1305066050].  The OP said he hates to play against the Scotch Four Knights.  Now there's a bugbear for you!  The problem surely is in his game, not Black's side of the the Scotch Four Knights.  Defend the Scotch Four Knights or freaking give up chess.


Thank you, very helpful  Roll Eyes
Not every opening is my cup of tea and the Scotch Four Knights isnt mine. Especially because my opponnent has played this system for years and he is a little bit weaker than me. I dont think it is easy for black to reach an unbalanced, complicated position (where both can lose) in the main line S F Knights (with Bg5 and this Na4 c4 stuff)
  
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #9 - 05/11/11 at 08:52:01
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Schroeder wrote on 05/10/11 at 22:20:50:
Bruce Monson in "The Belgrade Gambit" devotes one chapter to the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 Bb4 which he calls the Bogoljubow variation. In this chapter, he gives four annotated example games that he analyses in great detail.

With his recommended answer 5.Nxe5! he shows a convincing way to a White advantage. 2 years ago, I had the chance to follow his analysis successfully as White in an OTB game, and I definitely wouldn't be willing to play the Black side against a prepared opponent.


Has he also 5...Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Qe7 covered and what does he recommend? This has been played repeatedly by Nenashev/Graf and Godena and both are solid players.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #8 - 05/10/11 at 22:44:35
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Schroeder wrote on 05/10/11 at 22:20:50:
Bruce Monson in "The Belgrade Gambit" devotes one chapter to the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 Bb4 which he calls the Bogoljubow variation. In this chapter, he gives four annotated example games that he analyses in great detail.

With his recommended answer 5.Nxe5! he shows a convincing way to a White advantage. 2 years ago, I had the chance to follow his analysis successfully as White in an OTB game, and I definitely wouldn't be willing to play the Black side against a prepared opponent.


I dunno about Monson's analysis, but there's analysis on this board, in older threads, pointing to clear advantage for White.  So I would consider 4...Bb4 a speculative move.

I also dunno why anybody has a problem with 4...exd4.  The OP said he hates to play against the Scotch Four Knights.  Now there's a bugbear for you!  The problem surely is in his game, not Black's side of the the Scotch Four Knights.  Defend the Scotch Four Knights or freaking give up chess.
  

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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #7 - 05/10/11 at 22:20:50
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Bruce Monson in "The Belgrade Gambit" devotes one chapter to the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 Bb4 which he calls the Bogoljubow variation. In this chapter, he gives four annotated example games that he analyses in great detail.

With his recommended answer 5.Nxe5! he shows a convincing way to a White advantage. 2 years ago, I had the chance to follow his analysis successfully as White in an OTB game, and I definitely wouldn't be willing to play the Black side against a prepared opponent.
  
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cynima
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Re: Morphy´s solution to the Four Knights?!
Reply #6 - 05/10/11 at 20:49:18
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Fllg wrote on 05/10/11 at 19:43:51:
cynima wrote on 05/10/11 at 17:38:29:
Yes for me it is worth the trouble because I hate playing against Scotch Four Knights mainline


If you hate the mainline 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bb4 6.Nxc6 bxc6 7.Bd3 d5 8.exd5 than 7.Bd3 d6!? is relatively rare but sound alternative. This has been analysed by Gustafsson on his DVD on the open games as Black.


Thank you for that!
Maybe you have some variations, Key games for me?
Thx!
  
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