Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C34-C39:Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG (Read 54508 times)
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #17 - 05/25/11 at 10:50:30
Post Tools
SWJediknight wrote on 05/24/11 at 18:00:38:
I'm left wondering about about the Quaade Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3) on account of 4...Nc6 transposing to the Vienna Gambit, where White's choices are the Hanstein Gambit (5.Bc4), the Pierce Gambit (5.d4) and the Hamppe-Allgaier (5.h4 g4 6.Ne5), and White is struggling to demonstrate full compensation in those lines.  4.Bc4 is neutralised by the Hanstein Gambit and while the Kieseritzky (4.h4 g4 5.Ne5) gives full compensation I don't see how White generates many winning chances after 5...Qe7.  It'll certainly be interesting to see what Shirov has in mind against 3...g5- if his idea is 4.Nc3, either the 4...Nc6 transposition hasn't been considered or White must have an improvement there somewhere.

Yes White has an improvement (not one of your choices). It was debated in this forum some years ago.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #16 - 05/25/11 at 10:47:25
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 05/24/11 at 16:03:16:
Dragonslayer wrote on 05/24/11 at 14:15:17:
[quote author=240201110A060F24020F06630 link=1305856339/9#9 date=1306107993]I thought
(cut)
PS. How can you copy pgn from a flash if you cannot view the flash.


Not sure what you mean by "cannot view the flash".
If you can see the notation in the posting, you can then highlight it, then Ctrl C the moves, run Chessbase, open a new game window and then Ctrl V to paste in the moves. Then save it as usual.


If you view the postiing on an Iphone then you cannot see the flash part, hence you cannot see the pgn embedded in the flash part, hence you cannot copy-paste the pgn....
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #15 - 05/24/11 at 19:57:38
Post Tools
There is also 4.d4 with the same idea Bg7 5.Nc3.

To satisfy everybody I will both give the score of a game and use the flash option. It's not much of an effort.

Spielmann,R - Cohn,E [C37]
Gambiettoernooi Abbazia/Opatija (7), 1912

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 d5 5.exd5 g4 6.Qe2+ Qe7 7.Ne5 f3 8.gxf3 gxf3 9.Qxf3 f6 10.Bb5+ Kd8 11.0-0 Nh6 12.Qxf6 Rg8+ 13.Kh1 Bh3 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Rxf8 Rxf8 16.Bg5+ Rf6 17.Nc3 1-0



  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 915
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #14 - 05/24/11 at 18:00:38
Post Tools
I'm left wondering about about the Quaade Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3) on account of 4...Nc6 transposing to the Vienna Gambit, where White's choices are the Hanstein Gambit (5.Bc4), the Pierce Gambit (5.d4) and the Hamppe-Allgaier (5.h4 g4 6.Ne5), and White is struggling to demonstrate full compensation in those lines.  4.Bc4 is neutralised by the Hanstein Gambit and while the Kieseritzky (4.h4 g4 5.Ne5) gives full compensation I don't see how White generates many winning chances after 5...Qe7.  It'll certainly be interesting to see what Shirov has in mind against 3...g5- if his idea is 4.Nc3, either the 4...Nc6 transposition hasn't been considered or White must have an improvement there somewhere.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 964
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #13 - 05/24/11 at 16:03:16
Post Tools
Dragonslayer wrote on 05/24/11 at 14:15:17:
[quote author=240201110A060F24020F06630 link=1305856339/9#9 date=1306107993]I thought
(cut)
PS. How can you copy pgn from a flash if you cannot view the flash.


Not sure what you mean by "cannot view the flash".
If you can see the notation in the posting, you can then highlight it, then Ctrl C the moves, run Chessbase, open a new game window and then Ctrl V to paste in the moves. Then save it as usual.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #12 - 05/24/11 at 14:15:17
Post Tools
GabrielGale wrote on 05/22/11 at 23:46:33:
I thought I should reply since I was the originator of the thread.
@Charles Allen, Paddy - I don't have access to a game replayer at work. I am not sufficiently competent to play blindfold an entire game. In the past before the flash player, I found it frustrating being unable to follow the games and fragments of games on ChessPub. I am not advocating putting every game in ChessPub forum as replayable. However, KG is a rare enough beast at 2600-2700 level that I thought it warrant such special treatment. Hence my decision to put Shirov's game as replayable.
But as someone else says, you don't have to come to the party if you do not feel up to it.
@Paddy, why the necessity to post game as well as pgn? Surely you can copy pgn from the Flash player?
2) I am unashamedly a fan of Shirov's style and play and games.
3) I haven't got to the stage of learning how to play the KG as white. Still trying to figure out which response to KG as Black to play. Therefore would have liked some explanation of the game from resident experts. If not such explanation forthcoming, I guess I will just have to check it against Micawber's excellent KG files. (My thanks, Micawber!)


I did write those articles for New in Chess, but they are always behaving very strangely, so I decided not to go forth with the one on the ...h6 lines (which was 95% finished)
Basically 3...h6 is a way to aim for a classical setup with a strongpoint on e5 (...d6, ...Bg7, ...Ne7-g6, ...Nc6, ..Qe7 etc.) without allowing the Kieseritzky. Compared to the Fischer (3...d6) Black can sometimes get ...d5 in without losing tempo.
White's setup in this game was recommended by Estrin/Glazkov in the 1988 russian version of their KG book (I am writing from memory now so perhaps there are earlier sources) except they gave the immediate 8.Be3. The finesse 8.Rg1! was discovered first by D.Nightingale (and later by me).
After this Black needs to be very careful. In the Shirov game Black does not even win the piece so 9...Nc6 must be queried. 9...gxf3 is the way to go when White's better development and centre is sufficient compensation for the knight.

Fedorov played this variation a few times but never had to reveal his preparation after 7.gxf4, because the opponents always deviated earlier.

Regards
Michael

PS. How can you copy pgn from a flash if you cannot view the flash.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GabrielGale
Senior Member
****
Offline


Who was Thursday?

Posts: 471
Location: Sydney
Joined: 02/28/08
Gender: Male
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #11 - 05/23/11 at 03:03:31
Post Tools
@ Paddy, point taken but then I took the "pgn" from TWIC live games where the "games details" are not in the usual "pgn" notation. If you noticed the game I posted, the game details do not appear in the header but it appears in the text of my post in italics.
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 964
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #10 - 05/23/11 at 01:05:55
Post Tools
Thanks for getting back to us!

GabrielGale wrote on 05/22/11 at 23:46:33:
I thought
@Paddy, why the necessity to post game as well as pgn? Surely you can copy pgn from the Flash player?


How? Am I missing something?

Oh sure, you can Ctrl C the moves and then Ctrl V them into a new game-window in Chessbase, but then you have to spend time carefully adding all the game details. This is slightly annoying, especially  when you know that the guy that posted the game as Flash must have already had these details in a pgn file that he couldn't be bothered to add to his post, even as text (*), even when it takes just a few mouse clicks to attach it, or two keyboard shortcuts to copy and paste it.

Trivial, OK, but so are most annoyances in life. Smiley

(*) A useful feature In Chessbase is that you can paste a single game in pgn straight into a new game-window and save it into your database. All the header information will be copied correctly.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GabrielGale
Senior Member
****
Offline


Who was Thursday?

Posts: 471
Location: Sydney
Joined: 02/28/08
Gender: Male
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #9 - 05/22/11 at 23:46:33
Post Tools
I thought I should reply since I was the originator of the thread.
@Charles Allen, Paddy - I don't have access to a game replayer at work. I am not sufficiently competent to play blindfold an entire game. In the past before the flash player, I found it frustrating being unable to follow the games and fragments of games on ChessPub. I am not advocating putting every game in ChessPub forum as replayable. However, KG is a rare enough beast at 2600-2700 level that I thought it warrant such special treatment. Hence my decision to put Shirov's game as replayable.
But as someone else says, you don't have to come to the party if you do not feel up to it.
@Paddy, why the necessity to post game as well as pgn? Surely you can copy pgn from the Flash player?
2) I am unashamedly a fan of Shirov's style and play and games.
3) I haven't got to the stage of learning how to play the KG as white. Still trying to figure out which response to KG as Black to play. Therefore would have liked some explanation of the game from resident experts. If not such explanation forthcoming, I guess I will just have to check it against Micawber's excellent KG files. (My thanks, Micawber!)
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #8 - 05/22/11 at 17:45:10
Post Tools
TalJechin wrote on 05/21/11 at 10:31:19:
Charles Allen wrote on 05/20/11 at 13:53:23:
What's with all the Flash stuff in these forums these days?  Just post a pgn.  It's simple, robust, and can easily be copied and pasted into anyone's preferred tool for playing through games.


Enabling flash in your browser is even simpler.

The flash board is here to improve the discussions. If you don't want to take part you shouldn't complain either.


I disagree. I use an Iphone on the web a lot these days, and for various reasons there is no flash on Iphones (yes I know how to do it, so please don't send any suggestions regarding this).
Regarding the chess bit, I am pleased to see Shirov play the KG again. He did play it in the late 80ies, even the Polerio gambit.
I don't know about the 2.f4? comment (so many have put this ? in lapses of hybris) maybe it was after his win against Fedorov or Short.
He did suggest 4.Bc4 instead of 4.h4 in his comments to the Short game (Madrid 1997).
After 3...g5 I expect he would have played 4.Nc3, but let's hope we don't have to wait long for the answer to that one.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #7 - 05/21/11 at 11:35:35
Post Tools
[quote author=4071747469100 link=1305856339/6#6 date=1305976163]I seem to recall that Shirov once wrote something like "! e4 e5 2 f4? Loses a pawn." - perhaps annotating one of his black games. So I wonder what he intended against 2...exf4 3 Nf3 g5.

Shirov's choice of opening was perhaps influenced by the fact that GM Alekseev (close to 2700 ELO, so no patzer) defends against 2 Nf3 with the Berlin Wall or the Petroff, but has no games vs 2 f4 in the database. One of those "It might just work" gambles?
[/quote]

After 3...g5 he would probably have played the same Nc3+d4 set-up anyway. Maybe following Michael Jensen's articles in NiC, mentioned here a while ago.

The KG should fit Shirov's style very much - iirc he used to play the Muzio Gambit in the early 90s. And especially in these days of opponents preparing extensively against you, it's wise to throw in a KG or at least something unexpected, now and then. It both gives future opponents more to prepare against and occasionally a fun win too! :)

Actually the KG seems to be back on the top level, though it's far too risky to play all the time at that level of preparation (which may well go for most openings - it's better to be a moving target than a sitting duck!). But the last couple of years we've seen Carlsen, Ivanchuk, Nakamura, Judit Polgar play it with good results.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 964
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #6 - 05/21/11 at 11:09:23
Post Tools
I seem to recall that Shirov once wrote something like "! e4 e5 2 f4? Loses a pawn." - perhaps annotating one of his black games. So I wonder what he intended against 2...exf4 3 Nf3 g5.

Shirov's choice of opening was perhaps influenced by the fact that GM Alekseev (close to 2700 ELO, so no patzer) defends against 2 Nf3 with the Berlin Wall or the Petroff, but has no games vs 2 f4 in the database. One of those "It might just work" gambles?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
zoo
Ex Member


Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #5 - 05/21/11 at 10:42:02
Post Tools
for those preferring to read the PGN, it is certainly one click away from the flash animation ? can't see it with right-click though. Anyway, if everybody starts posting flash games just for fun, this forum will soon look like MSN.
As for Shirov playing KG, I guess he just indulged himself into a day off.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #4 - 05/21/11 at 10:31:19
Post Tools
Charles Allen wrote on 05/20/11 at 13:53:23:
What's with all the Flash stuff in these forums these days?  Just post a pgn.  It's simple, robust, and can easily be copied and pasted into anyone's preferred tool for playing through games.


Enabling flash in your browser is even simpler.

The flash board is here to improve the discussions. If you don't want to take part you shouldn't complain either.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 964
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Alexei "Fire on Board" Shirov plays the KG
Reply #3 - 05/20/11 at 15:23:50
Post Tools
Charles Allen wrote on 05/20/11 at 13:53:23:
What's with all the Flash stuff in these forums these days?  Just post a pgn.  It's simple, robust, and can easily be copied and pasted into anyone's preferred tool for playing through games.


I agree.

Perhaps best would be Flash AND a pgn file, but failing that just attach the pgn, please!  It only takes a couple of seconds. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo