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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4 (Read 32514 times)
AJZ
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #28 - 07/01/16 at 10:32:51
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Dragan Glas wrote on 06/21/16 at 16:06:33:
Greetings,

Old topic, I know, but just came across it after a long hiatus.

Instead of 16...,Be6, which seems passive as it invites 17Nc5 with exchanges, I was wondering about 16...,Nf4 - obviously threatening the fork on e2 - with 17...,Bf5/a6 to follow, or 16...,Bf5 (17Bxd5, cd just opens up the c-file with the rooks coming to c8 and b8) followed by 17...,Nf4 and 18...,Ra/f-d8.

This seems to, at least, make things a bit more interesting rather than exchanging into a so-so ending.

Another option, though less appealing, is 16...,e5 with either 17...,Be6/f5 or 17...,Nf4 or 17...,Rd8 (or 17...,Rad8, if the bishop's moved).

Not sure how appealing/useful these would be - no silicon pet on this laptop.

Kindest regards,

James


16...Nf4?? is dropping a rook on d8
16...Bf5! would be my choice for not that hard equality as GM Jones shows
16...e5?! don't like in such positions
16...Be6!? GM Jones in his book analyse it in details
  
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #27 - 06/21/16 at 16:06:33
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Greetings,

Old topic, I know, but just came across it after a long hiatus.

Instead of 16...,Be6, which seems passive as it invites 17Nc5 with exchanges, I was wondering about 16...,Nf4 - obviously threatening the fork on e2 - with 17...,Bf5/a6 to follow, or 16...,Bf5 (17Bxd5, cd just opens up the c-file with the rooks coming to c8 and b8) followed by 17...,Nf4 and 18...,Ra/f-d8.

This seems to, at least, make things a bit more interesting rather than exchanging into a so-so ending.

Another option, though less appealing, is 16...,e5 with either 17...,Be6/f5 or 17...,Nf4 or 17...,Rd8 (or 17...,Rad8, if the bishop's moved).

Not sure how appealing/useful these would be - no silicon pet on this laptop.

Kindest regards,

James
  
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bragesjo
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #26 - 07/31/14 at 10:28:17
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bragesjo wrote on 07/29/14 at 18:44:59:
The sharper a position are, the more moves are forced for both sides.
The sharper a poisiton are and mores are forced the number of forced draws increases.


I forgot one thing so I am quating myself Smiley

This part of my post is not only true to Dragon. As a matter of fact this is my conslusion when studing openings in generall, the sharper variation the more moves are forced and more forced draws. I for example changed some of my original intended lines in Nmzo Indian when I discovered this thing.
  
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #25 - 07/29/14 at 18:44:59
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Bc4 yugoslav leeds to sharper play than 9 0-0-0, and it also increases blacks counterplay but also increases whites atacking chanses.
The sharper a position are, the more moves are forced for both sides.
The sharper a poisiton are and mores are forced the number of forced draws increases.
  
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Jamal Munshi
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #24 - 07/29/14 at 16:53:44
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i did a comparison of 9. Bc4 and 9. O-O-O and the only difference i found is that 9. Bc4 is more drawish and 9. O-O-O with castling on opposite sides leads to more decisive games. the analysis is available online and i would be grateful for your comments. my paper may be found by googling "pairwise comparison of chess opening variations"

  
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #23 - 05/04/13 at 08:24:28
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This CC game illustrates how unpleasant the position is to play for black

  

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bragesjo
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #22 - 05/18/12 at 09:01:14
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I think white has the slightly better chanses but nothing special.
  
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #21 - 05/16/12 at 14:56:53
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #20 - 05/16/12 at 14:53:04
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The line 12...Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qc7 15.Bc4 Rd8 16.Bb3 Be6 17.Nc5 Nf4 18.Nxe6 Nxe6 19.Qe3 Nf4

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


leads to this ending. Isn't this slightly favourable for white?
Exchange rooks and queen, then you have bishop vs knight and solid pawns vs not so solid pawns Smiley

This very position has arisen at least twice.
In one game, Heine Nielsen drew as black against Adams and in another game Heine Nielsens girlfriend Cmilyte drew as black as well. So perhaps it's not so easy after all?
(I'm posting these two games in the next post...)
  

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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #19 - 03/10/12 at 22:13:12
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Its been a while since last post at this forum.

Today I crushed a FM who plays i swedish elite in a strange variation of 12 .. Nxc3. White played 13 Qxc3 Bh6+ 14 Be3 Bxe3 15 Qxe3 Qb6 and instead of accepting the pawn opponnet played 16 Qa3 immidiatly and after Be6 it became a standard position of 12 .. Nxc3 with the difference that material was equal and I got very good play and won by a combination after a blunder by opponent. The funny thing is that several moves later in the game my opponnet captured that e7 pawn wth the queen. However both of us had been drinking a lot before when we was at party after a mutal chess playing friends daughters baptism.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #18 - 11/28/11 at 19:05:33
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Greetings,

JamesH wrote on 06/05/11 at 20:02:27:
Spree K wrote on 06/05/11 at 19:07:09:
The 12...Bxd4 line has been causing White some issues, e.g., 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qc7! as played by Carlsen. The current verdict seems to be that White cannot get an advantage.

although these Bxd4 lines do seem to equalise, they generally seem to go into a fairly level ending, maybe a minute advantage for black in some lines. The problem personally is that when playing such a variation as the dragon, i'd like somesort of complex middle game as oppose to a rook endgame :/.

Note to GMTonyKosten/Mods:

Perhaps, it might be an idea to start a Endgame section where such endings could be analysed/assessed to help players - like JamesH and me! - to decide whether to try and stay in a middle-game by taking (unnecessary?) risks or bite the bullet and go for a "equal" ending.

If nothing else, it may reveal that - being better prepared for such endings - there are better chances for Black to win!? Wink

Kindest regards,

James
  
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #17 - 10/12/11 at 18:41:44
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This game was annotated at subscription section. However I think white can simply transpose to mainline instead of grabbing the pawn.


  
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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #16 - 10/12/11 at 18:35:22
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Bibs wrote on 10/12/11 at 13:32:39:
Presume everyone caught this game:

12 Bd4 e5
13 Bc5 Rb8

Had a Houdini through it, brain somewhat switched on, all seemed entirely sensible.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1630017


The plug-in doesnt work; did white take the exchange on f8 and win a pawn on d5?
  

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Re: B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #15 - 10/12/11 at 13:32:39
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Presume everyone caught this game:

12 Bd4 e5
13 Bc5 Rb8

Had a Houdini through it, brain somewhat switched on, all seemed entirely sensible.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1630017
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #14 - 10/11/11 at 08:08:09
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Quote:
finally im sure the whole "mainline" after 12...e5 cant be refuted? I imagine somone has done some more recent analysis on this line: 12...e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Rb8!? my fairly dated database gives several moves for white here such as 15. Bc4 15.h4 15.g4 and 15.c4. Ill avoid posting reams of analysis here, but this position seems just consistently better for white, and black doesnt seem to get sufficient play, I hope i am wrong Cheesy anyone got any analysis on this line? thanks Smiley



For me the only problem with 14...Rb8 line is 15.Bc4 Re8 16.h4 f5 17.Ng5 e4 18.Bb3! Qf6 19.Bd4! and white is better. Any improvements here?
« Last Edit: 10/11/11 at 10:00:44 by MNb »  

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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #13 - 06/08/11 at 12:09:28
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To make it more clear, I meant that Bxd4 has less forced draws than Nxc3. This is from a pure theoretical view. It may be different in practical play , for example, I have won more games with Nxc3 than I have lost, depend on opponnents strenth and theoretical knowledge. Both sides can win by playing normal moves in about any equal line.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #12 - 06/07/11 at 18:09:46
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XChess1971 wrote on 06/07/11 at 00:49:02:
JamesH wrote on 06/06/11 at 15:08:26:
@Xchess1971 yeah i believe this variation is also OK for black, but its just another line where white, (if he chooses to) can enter a very equal ending and it seems that once again the life is sort of sucked out of the position.

For example 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 Bxe3+ 15.Qxe3 Qb6, the main move here is Qxe7 which gives black some attacking chances, but even here white can go for the unambitious 16.Qxb6 axb6 17.Bc4 with an equal ending.

Maybe I should just start to like rook endings more Wink


I would suggest you tactics and endings. Ask the white's guys if they play just for a draw?.


My endings are weak compared to the rest of my game, but my tacts seems ok Smiley. Well its more that weaker opponents can opt for such unambitious lines to minimise winning chances, making the position harder to win, of course yes the objective with the white pieces is to win so, maybe i should stop whining about the endings Cheesy
  

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XChess1971
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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #11 - 06/07/11 at 00:49:02
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JamesH wrote on 06/06/11 at 15:08:26:
@Xchess1971 yeah i believe this variation is also OK for black, but its just another line where white, (if he chooses to) can enter a very equal ending and it seems that once again the life is sort of sucked out of the position.

For example 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 Bxe3+ 15.Qxe3 Qb6, the main move here is Qxe7 which gives black some attacking chances, but even here white can go for the unambitious 16.Qxb6 axb6 17.Bc4 with an equal ending.

Maybe I should just start to like rook endings more Wink


I would suggest you tactics and endings. Ask the white's guys if they play just for a draw?.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #10 - 06/06/11 at 16:13:23
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bragesjo wrote on 06/06/11 at 15:07:35:
I think that both Bxd4 and Nxc3 lines are fully playable. If need to win play Bxd4. If draw is ok Nxc3 is an option (has tons of forced draws). I dont like e5 becouse of

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4.
Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5
11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. h5 g5 17. c4 *

Also I think Dearings Qb7 has some other drawback, white could get a much better position by some move. There was something better for black earlier that Golubev has not mentioned that leed to a drawish endgame.



OK thanks, the previous post linking to another forum originally seemed to think black was doing fine after 25...c5 or something, but yeah now it looks as if that isnt good  Undecided.

still, how does black play for the win in the Bxd4 line after for example:

12.Bd4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 Qb6 14.Na4 Qc7 15.Bc4 Rd8 16.Bb3 Bf5 17.g3! Rd6 18.Rhe1 Rad8 19.Qc5 Qd7 20.c4! (a possible improvement over Qg1 played in Grischuk-Motylev
  

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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #9 - 06/06/11 at 15:08:26
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@Xchess1971 yeah i believe this variation is also OK for black, but its just another line where white, (if he chooses to) can enter a very equal ending and it seems that once again the life is sort of sucked out of the position.

For example 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 Bxe3+ 15.Qxe3 Qb6, the main move here is Qxe7 which gives black some attacking chances, but even here white can go for the unambitious 16.Qxb6 axb6 17.Bc4 with an equal ending.

Maybe I should just start to like rook endings more Wink
  

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bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #8 - 06/06/11 at 15:07:35
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I think that both Bxd4 and Nxc3 lines are fully playable. If need to win play Bxd4. If draw is ok Nxc3 is an option (has tons of forced draws). I dont like e5 becouse of

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4.
Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5
11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. h5 g5 17. c4 *

Also I think Dearings Qb7 has some other drawback, white could get a much better position by some move. There was something better for black earlier that Golubev has not mentioned that leed to a drawish endgame.

  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #7 - 06/06/11 at 14:36:23
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Glenn Snow wrote on 06/06/11 at 12:49:56:


thanks for the link, I new this would of been covered at somepoint here Cheesy
  

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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #6 - 06/06/11 at 12:49:56
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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #5 - 06/06/11 at 12:33:11
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JamesH wrote on 06/06/11 at 09:06:15:
XChess1971 wrote on 06/05/11 at 22:58:54:
JamesH wrote on 06/05/11 at 20:02:27:
Spree K wrote on 06/05/11 at 19:07:09:
The 12...Bxd4 line has been causing White some issues, e.g., 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qc7! as played by Carlsen. The current verdict seems to be that White cannot get an advantage.

although these Bxd4 lines do seem to equalise, they generally seem to go into a fairly level ending, maybe a minute advantage for black in some lines. The problem personally is that when playing such a variation as the dragon, i'd like somesort of complex middle game as oppose to a rook endgame :/.


You gotta play what you need to survive. How is the 12...Bh6+ doing?


Yeah, i guess so, sometimes i want more than survival Cheesy and 12...Bh6 in which position? here the Q is still on d2 ^.^

finally im sure the whole "mainline" after 12...e5 cant be refuted? I imagine somone has done some more recent analysis on this line: 12...e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Rb8!? my fairly dated database gives several moves for white here such as 15. Bc4 15.h4 15.g4 and 15.c4. Ill avoid posting reams of analysis here, but this position seems just consistently better for white, and black doesnt seem to get sufficient play, I hope i am wrong Cheesy anyone got any analysis on this line? thanks Smiley



I meant 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #4 - 06/06/11 at 09:06:15
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XChess1971 wrote on 06/05/11 at 22:58:54:
JamesH wrote on 06/05/11 at 20:02:27:
Spree K wrote on 06/05/11 at 19:07:09:
The 12...Bxd4 line has been causing White some issues, e.g., 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qc7! as played by Carlsen. The current verdict seems to be that White cannot get an advantage.

although these Bxd4 lines do seem to equalise, they generally seem to go into a fairly level ending, maybe a minute advantage for black in some lines. The problem personally is that when playing such a variation as the dragon, i'd like somesort of complex middle game as oppose to a rook endgame :/.


You gotta play what you need to survive. How is the 12...Bh6+ doing?


Yeah, i guess so, sometimes i want more than survival Cheesy and 12...Bh6 in which position? here the Q is still on d2 ^.^

finally im sure the whole "mainline" after 12...e5 cant be refuted? I imagine somone has done some more recent analysis on this line: 12...e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Rb8!? my fairly dated database gives several moves for white here such as 15. Bc4 15.h4 15.g4 and 15.c4. Ill avoid posting reams of analysis here, but this position seems just consistently better for white, and black doesnt seem to get sufficient play, I hope i am wrong Cheesy anyone got any analysis on this line? thanks Smiley

  

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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #3 - 06/05/11 at 22:58:54
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JamesH wrote on 06/05/11 at 20:02:27:
Spree K wrote on 06/05/11 at 19:07:09:
The 12...Bxd4 line has been causing White some issues, e.g., 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qc7! as played by Carlsen. The current verdict seems to be that White cannot get an advantage.

although these Bxd4 lines do seem to equalise, they generally seem to go into a fairly level ending, maybe a minute advantage for black in some lines. The problem personally is that when playing such a variation as the dragon, i'd like somesort of complex middle game as oppose to a rook endgame :/.


You gotta play what you need to survive. How is the 12...Bh6+ doing?
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #2 - 06/05/11 at 20:02:27
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Spree K wrote on 06/05/11 at 19:07:09:
The 12...Bxd4 line has been causing White some issues, e.g., 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qc7! as played by Carlsen. The current verdict seems to be that White cannot get an advantage.

although these Bxd4 lines do seem to equalise, they generally seem to go into a fairly level ending, maybe a minute advantage for black in some lines. The problem personally is that when playing such a variation as the dragon, i'd like somesort of complex middle game as oppose to a rook endgame :/.
  

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Re: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
Reply #1 - 06/05/11 at 19:07:09
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The 12...Bxd4 line has been causing White some issues, e.g., 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qc7! as played by Carlsen. The current verdict seems to be that White cannot get an advantage.
  
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B76: 9.0-0-0 12.Bd4
06/05/11 at 17:03:29
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Maybe Im being a bit lazy for not searching around these forums but at the moment every one seems to be focusing on the 10.Kb1 variation, anyway, what is the current evaluation of the 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 line?
Ive looked down the mainlines for example 12...e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Re8 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 black now has a variety of options namely 19...Qb7 (given in Dearing's book), but it just seems white has a small, but persistent edge due to blacks lack of pawn breaks and hemmed in g7 bishop. for example 20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 22.Bd6! Dearing only considers 22.Nf6+?! Bxf6 23.gxf6 Qa6! which is good for black. After Bd6, im finding it difficult to make progress as black and it also seems white may now have the threat Nf6+ followed by Bxe5

Are people deviating earlier on? Or does black have more chances in this line than it seems?
Help would be brilliant  Smiley

thanks. Grin

note by MNb: added the complete moves from 9.0-0-0 until 12.Bd4.
« Last Edit: 07/18/11 at 15:21:12 by MNb »  

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