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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ? (Read 19489 times)
Seth_Xoma
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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #22 - 09/19/11 at 04:24:25
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gewgaw wrote on 07/31/11 at 21:50:00:
When I look through books about the open sicilian (e.g. pavlovic) with lines till the endgame, I get the feeling, that 99,9 percent of chess is discovered.


I think we've all had that feeling once or twice.
  
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gewgaw
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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #21 - 07/31/11 at 21:50:00
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When I look through books about the open sicilian (e.g. pavlovic) with lines till the endgame, I get the feeling, that 99,9 percent of chess is discovered.
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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JamesH
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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #20 - 07/31/11 at 21:03:55
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Bibs wrote on 07/31/11 at 08:34:58:
JamesH wrote on 07/30/11 at 22:22:19:
I personally thought black was doing well in the 10.Qe1 variation, critical nowadays is just the mainline with 12.Bd4!, where it seems black has to try and fight for a draw :/


Indeed , plenty of activity in the British Championships in that line. Gawain Jones looked to have had the last word at the moment:

Adams-Jones, Sheffield, 2011.


Despite the end result being a draw, it seems blacks really struggling to gain any advantage to play for the win.
  

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bragesjo
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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #19 - 07/31/11 at 19:49:45
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It looks like the main line of Qe1 system. I can not wait to get a hand of my own copy and compare it some of my old analysed lines..
  
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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #18 - 07/31/11 at 15:17:42
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10 Qe1 e5 (10...e6 is also covered) 11 Nxc6 bxc6 12 exd5 Nxd5 (12...cxd5 is also covered) 13 Bc4 Be6 14 Ne4 ( I noticed earlier people talking about 14 Kb1 but on some level it seems strange to put the king on the recently opened b file.) Qc7 15 Bc5 is what he spends a lot of time on. Other 14 moves for Black are also covered.

His main line seems to lead to an endgame that is marginally better for White. I'd be happy with it OTB but Black probablly has drawing chances, as usual
  
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XChess1971
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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #17 - 07/31/11 at 14:06:26
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Varggrav wouldn't you tell us what is the suggestion?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #16 - 07/31/11 at 13:39:17
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I will have a look at new disc when the store I usually buy from reopens next week and gets in that disc for order. Since I have first disc I will buy the whole serie at any rate.

I am also surprised that 10 Qe1 is recommended, in my view particullary 12 Bd4 line and also 10 Kb1 is more challenging against a booked up player. I recall I lost a team match in Qe1 line as white in swedish division 1 (back than swedish 2nd division) in about 2001 or 2002.

About 12 Bd4 line, perhaps he reasons that black has good chances to draw so therefore selected 10 Qe1 instead.
  
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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #15 - 07/31/11 at 09:05:25
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Maybe, although you couldn't really call those games taken together as an advert for the opening Smiley Looked like plenty of two results style suffering.
  
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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #14 - 07/31/11 at 08:34:58
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JamesH wrote on 07/30/11 at 22:22:19:
I personally thought black was doing well in the 10.Qe1 variation, critical nowadays is just the mainline with 12.Bd4!, where it seems black has to try and fight for a draw :/


Indeed , plenty of activity in the British Championships in that line. Gawain Jones looked to have had the last word at the moment:

Adams-Jones, Sheffield, 2011.
  
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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #13 - 07/30/11 at 22:22:19
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I personally thought black was doing well in the 10.Qe1 variation, critical nowadays is just the mainline with 12.Bd4!, where it seems black has to try and fight for a draw :/
  

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Re: B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #12 - 07/30/11 at 16:28:47
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For those interested in this line from the white perspective 10 Qe1 is Bologan's recommendation in his ChessBase DVD Beating The Sicilian Volume 2. I have briefly watched it and it has convinced me to try 10 Qe1 in my next game after being a bit disappointed with my last outing with 10 Kb1.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #11 - 06/19/11 at 17:36:10
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I am not shure about objective status since I have not seen any GM games in the line. Only then can objetivety be printed in stone after a few games.

In complicated positions one book can say that one side is better and an other book the complete opposese, like Expers vs Sicilian claming white was slightly better in a accelerated Dragon Bind line (about a improvment including a exchange sac) and a book for black claimed a black edge and computer thought equal.

But in this specific position I see no advantage to white even in Re8 line (who might even be stronger than Rb8), there are some black options removed, like an attacking the a pawn with the queen, but white has less control of d1 and d2 squares in some lines.
  
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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #10 - 06/18/11 at 22:33:09
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bragesjo wrote on 06/18/11 at 15:10:20:
JamesH wrote on 06/16/11 at 17:58:50:
bragesjo wrote on 06/16/11 at 11:59:31:
forget last post, I made a major analytical mistake in 16 .. e4 17 Bb3 line and both me and computer míssed an other move for white earlier as well. Will have an other look later today,


Instead 16...e4, black could try 16...Bc8!?, it isnt as direct as ...e4 but black has the idea of ...h6, kicking away the knight.


I agree, white has nothing special after Bc8.

I also think that allowing the extra tempo with Re8 instead of Rb8 is fine for black.


Ah ok Smiley does this mean the computer book was wrong in assuming an advantage for white?!
  

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bragesjo
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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #9 - 06/18/11 at 15:10:20
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JamesH wrote on 06/16/11 at 17:58:50:
bragesjo wrote on 06/16/11 at 11:59:31:
forget last post, I made a major analytical mistake in 16 .. e4 17 Bb3 line and both me and computer míssed an other move for white earlier as well. Will have an other look later today,


Instead 16...e4, black could try 16...Bc8!?, it isnt as direct as ...e4 but black has the idea of ...h6, kicking away the knight.


I agree, white has nothing special after Bc8.

I also think that allowing the extra tempo with Re8 instead of Rb8 is fine for black.
  
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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #8 - 06/16/11 at 17:58:50
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bragesjo wrote on 06/16/11 at 11:59:31:
forget last post, I made a major analytical mistake in 16 .. e4 17 Bb3 line and both me and computer míssed an other move for white earlier as well. Will have an other look later today,


Instead 16...e4, black could try 16...Bc8!?, it isnt as direct as ...e4 but black has the idea of ...h6, kicking away the knight.
  

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bragesjo
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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #7 - 06/16/11 at 11:59:31
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forget last post, I made a major analytical mistake in 16 .. e4 17 Bb3 line and both me and computer míssed an other move for white earlier as well. Will have an other look later today,
  
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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #6 - 06/16/11 at 10:17:06
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Can share a couple of ideas

  

qe1.pgn ( 1 KB | Downloads )
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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #5 - 06/16/11 at 08:30:17
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Quick looks indicates that there is no major difference in the position. Only difference is that Radjabovs exchange sac is impossible since there is no check at e2 in a sideline, but that exchange sac is not entire correct anyway. There is also a couple of lines where d1 is less protected.

The tempo won by white in Re8 line makes the position look like a main line in 12 Bd4 e5 where black also loses a tempo, only difference is white queen is at e1 instead of f2 and king at b1 instead of c1. Not shure if it favor any players.

Also, 14 .. Rb8 is also playable (and my Dragon instinct suggets it is the best move) eg 15 Ne4 f5! when Ng5 is bad becouse of the sac e4.
  
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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #4 - 06/16/11 at 01:21:23
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14.Kb1 is a mainline in one computer book I have. The idea is that black can't play Qc7 now (because d5 is hanging) and after say 14... Re8 15.Ne4 Qc7 16.Bc5 white is tempo up comparing to Ne4 variation and should have decent edge (for example now Ng5 never runs into Bh6 which is a problem in 14.Ne4 variation)
  
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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #3 - 06/15/11 at 12:03:55
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Black is indeed doing very well in the 10.Qe1 mainlines there is an improvement in the game svidler - radjabov given in the chesspub update where black is doing brilliantly.
Although here punter is asking about the sideline 14.Kb1, which according to my databases is a novelty, and it also isn't included in any of my computer books. Which book are you using?

Anyway after 14.Kb1 how do you intend to follow up? Are you still playing Ne4 , Bc5 , g4/Qh4, or is there some other idea? Otherwise black will just play similar plans to the mainline, and maybe whites Kb1 is a waste of time and could be more venerable on the b-file.

  

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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #2 - 06/12/11 at 09:11:32
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I can add that I recall that Leko played Qe1 agianst Carlsen a few years ago. That game became a draw but white was much better, perhaps even winning, at several points. I think that Radjabov has met Qe1 at worldelite level in at least one more game, dont remember that opponent. White won that game becouse Radjabov got into time trouble and the position turned from -+ into +- in in one move.

In my own experience of the black pieces in that line, the position is one of the more tricky positions to handle if meeting a strong opponnent. Hower I won several games right after the opening when white made moverorder mistakes like running into everything from Bh6+ Kb1 Nxc3+ exchange sacs (with deadly mating attacks as follow up) as well as Qg5+ lines.
« Last Edit: 06/12/11 at 15:18:35 by MNb »  
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Re: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
Reply #1 - 06/09/11 at 13:12:50
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Qe1 used to very popular, it was recommended by Beating the Sicilian 3. However several lines in that book was incorrect, where Nunn missed some moves that turned the positon into a black advantage and the variation started to deciline in favors of main line 12 Bd4 as well as 10 Kb1. Most books considere Qe1 to lead to equal play.
« Last Edit: 06/09/11 at 22:47:14 by MNb »  
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B76: 10.Qe1 in dragon ?
06/08/11 at 16:51:35
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This move seems to be very interesting to me. There is only one high profile game in the database (Svidler Radjabov) which went:

1. e4   c5 2 . Nf3  d6 3. d4   cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3  g6 6. Be3  Bg7 7. f3   O-O 8. Qd2  Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. Qe1 e5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12. exd5 Nxd5 13. Bc4 Be6 14. Ne4 Qc7 etc.

but 14.Kb1 seems to be better move according to some computer books. It looks like white is comfortably better here. Any ideas why white doesn't play it more often ?
« Last Edit: 07/18/11 at 15:20:27 by MNb »  
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