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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00-C19: A system against french for 1450 elo kid (Read 36983 times)
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #21 - 06/16/11 at 15:45:41
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The 1450 kid must be well and truly confused by now.
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #20 - 06/16/11 at 11:30:16
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The Korchnoi Gambit games/video was a good introduction to opening, but I did not give any lines in diversions like the Rubenstein variation. Also, very few games where covered but still enough for a repertour. I belive Korchnoi gambit is sound, it is played regulary by Michael Adams. I even think I have seen Kasparov play it.
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #19 - 06/16/11 at 08:07:26
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I noticed that Sam Collins recently made a video for Chessbase on the Korchnoi Gambit. (I haven't seen it myself yet.) That might be the fastest mainline approach to learn.

IMO quick fix systems really have limitations against the French. I noticed 3.Be3 was mentioned, but it really looks like a joke to me. I don't know how I could explain a move like that to a student. If you want to avoid theory, 3.Bd3 would be much better. Here again, it doesn't follow great chess sense either, but there is at least some logic to it. It probably leads to a near equal game with best play, and there are chances for an advantage if Black is not alert. You could probably teach this line within 10 minutes and most opponents at that level would not have a good line prepared. It's not great, but could have some shock value.

It might be useful to compare the Milner-Barry with the Korchnoi Gambit, but I don't like recommending unsound gambits. There's an also a potential autopilot mentality about it that would concern me. I don't see the value of it over the Korchnoi Gambit as theoretical preparation has such a little role at that level. Why not just show stronger moves if there is a similar theme?

The King Indian Attack involves a middlegame structure that is well worth learning. It's a system (potential autopilot issue again) and has its limitations of course. Still I think it has good educational value for middlegame play. I liked the King's Indian as Black when I was that rating, so that was a choice that worked for me.

There's also a strong argument for starting with the principled 3.Nc3. The problem is that I would not feel comfortable spending so much time on the Winawer, MacCutcheon, Classical, and Burn variations. Maybe you'd just have to start with the Burn and old Classical lines and temporarily ignore the rest until it appears OTB. Winging the Winawer Poisoned Pawn just seems like a nightmare to me. The old lines are logical, but some of the trendier lines can be wild and appear irrational. However, this might excite some players and encourage their tactical development.

When it comes down to making a decision, I think a lot of it would depend on the person and the ambition they have for the game!
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #18 - 06/15/11 at 20:59:06
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MNb wrote on 06/15/11 at 00:52:39:
urusov wrote on 06/15/11 at 00:40:15:
The opposite side castling positions that arise from the "Russian Roulette" line 1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. d4 c5 6. dxc5 Nc6 7. Bf4 Bxc5 8. Bd3 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qe2 O-O 11. O-O-O are a lot of fun to play.  Unfortunately, there is not one very good source on this line.

Are you not impressed by Moskalenko's chapter 7 of The Flexible French or don't you know it? He annotates 6 high class games.

Sorry for being unclear.  I meant that there is not a single source that covers the entire line very well.  There are multiple sources that touch on pieces.  Moskalenko is excellent, and his chapter is why I call it the "Russian Roulette" as he does.  Much of his analysis also appeared in NIC Yearbook.  But he ONLY covers this opposite side castling line and nothing else.  Meanwhile, Chris Baker's Startling Repertoire book does a good job in places, but it does not discuss the line that Moskalenko does.  So you have to track down the multiple sources and piece things together for yourself.
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #17 - 06/15/11 at 09:50:00
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It depends...

If the kid has not read Nimzowich's My sistem yet (i asume that he didn't) i would teach him/her something aiming for an open, lively game.The relatively simple exchange variation could do.

After studing Nimzowich' ideas i would teach him the advance. Not for a definitive repertoire but as a step more in his chess developement.
Anyway at low levels openings are not the most important. Emphasis must be put on tactics, endings and midle game themes...New openings should be introduced as a road to new types of positions.
« Last Edit: 06/15/11 at 10:56:35 by agropop »  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #16 - 06/15/11 at 00:52:39
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urusov wrote on 06/15/11 at 00:40:15:
The opposite side castling positions that arise from the "Russian Roulette" line 1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. d4 c5 6. dxc5 Nc6 7. Bf4 Bxc5 8. Bd3 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qe2 O-O 11. O-O-O are a lot of fun to play.  Unfortunately, there is not one very good source on this line.

Are you not impressed by Moskalenko's chapter 7 of The Flexible French or don't you know it? He annotates 6 high class games.
  

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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #15 - 06/15/11 at 00:40:15
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I think there is a lot to learn from the isolated pawn positions arising from the Exchange French with c4 (sometimes called the Monte Carlo variation).  I have written about it here:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2009/fr-ex-c4.htm
Especially for developing players, these isolani positions are good to know because they can arise in a wide range of openings, as White or Black, and help aid moving freely between d-pawn and e-pawn openings.

I took up the Two Knights French myself as a youngster and still play that quite a bit.  It produces a wide range of positions and has lots of traps.  The opposite side castling positions that arise from the "Russian Roulette" line 1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. d4 c5 6. dxc5 Nc6 7. Bf4 Bxc5 8. Bd3 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qe2 O-O 11. O-O-O are a lot of fun to play.  Unfortunately, there is not one very good source on this line.  I should probably write something up... Smiley

I think both of these lines are perfectly legitimate (more legit than many of the silly gambit lines other 1400s fall into playing) and definitely have something to teach developing players. 
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #14 - 06/14/11 at 20:24:53
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Any scholastic player I coach is taking up 3. Nc3. Part of learning chess is learning different positions, which means I don't suscribe to the "must have open positions all the time" mantra. They can get open positions when they get other defenses (Sicilian, 1. e4 e5, etc.) - not the French. Why? Because lines like the 4. c4 Exchange surrender the initiative (black has absolutely no issue finding good moves that maintain the balance/strive for more, and why should I put my student behind the 8-ball when kids, being the sponges they are, can learn the perfectly natural/explainable main lines).

The French is as good a time as any to teach a student about pawn chains, bad bishops, space advantages, etc., and they can at least put pressure on black by playing natural moves.

3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5. The Steinitz is not hard to play the white side of at all. There's not a better primer to playing with space/against the bad bishop/undermining pawn chains than this one.

3. Nc3 Bb4 has a bunch of choices being reasonable if he's preoccupied with learning other things and has no time to learn the full main lines yet (4. exd5, 4. a3 both have bite and lead to playable positions for white where black is perhaps exercising more caution).

3. Nc3 dxe4 is an open position, and the kid will have similar experiences from the Open Games and Sicilian.
  

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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #13 - 06/14/11 at 20:00:23
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How about a compromise with 3 Nc3 and then if black goes for Winawer or MacCutcheon you play a delayed exchange?  If instead Black goes with a ...dxe4 line or something like 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 Be7 then those involve pretty straightforward piece play for a student.
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #12 - 06/14/11 at 19:42:49
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The c4 exchange French is a popular choice among scholastic students who have coaches, but Black has very little to fear from such a choice. I can't think of any middle school or high school state champions in my area who won by playing c4 exchange lines as White.

Of course, I don't know what every state champion has played, but I really doubt that c4 exchange lines are the best way to go despite its popularity.

To me, the great advantage of the Exchange French isn't that it helps the students, but it makes the task of teaching the kids easier without actually giving them the best tools.
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #11 - 06/14/11 at 19:36:13
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My first thougt was Korchnoi gambit in Tarrash, but black is not forced to enter it. The gambit teaches value of initiativ, leed in development and gives attacking chanses. The gambit gives long term compensation, sometimes even lasting into an endgame.
  
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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #10 - 06/14/11 at 15:50:37
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Definitely the 4.c4 Exchange. In my experience most French players adore facing 3.e5, and 3.Nc3 is a bit complex. Obviously this could also be seen as a reason to teach the kid 3.Nc3.

Personally I struggled against the French until I started playing the Tarrasch. I personally think it's a bit too positionally complex for a junior below 2000, but maybe a repertoire around the Korchnoi Gambit deserves consideration.
  

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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #9 - 06/14/11 at 15:34:11
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MNb wrote on 06/14/11 at 00:55:20:
Stigma wrote on 06/13/11 at 17:55:32:
The most common way for Black to "avoid" the Milner-Barry on beginner level is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nxd4. But I don't think White should be too unhappy with that deviation.

That happened once indeed when I played the Milner Barry. All others deviated with 5...Nge7 or 6...Bd7 etcetera. I have never got the chance to play the Milner Barry itself. So after more than a year I returned to 3.Nc3 and decided to get on friendly terms with 4.e5 against the Winawer.

Yeah, I'd say if you're insisting on a gambit against the French, go with the Alapin (1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Be3). The books I've seen claim that after 3. ... dxe4 4. Nd2 is the way to go before 5. f3, but I prefer the 4. f3 line.

But like the similar thread about what to play against the Sicilian, I think rapidly improving kids are probably better served sticking to main lines that they'll be able to play for life, even at master and GM level.
  

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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #8 - 06/14/11 at 00:55:20
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Stigma wrote on 06/13/11 at 17:55:32:
The most common way for Black to "avoid" the Milner-Barry on beginner level is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nxd4. But I don't think White should be too unhappy with that deviation.

That happened once indeed when I played the Milner Barry. All others deviated with 5...Nge7 or 6...Bd7 etcetera. I have never got the chance to play the Milner Barry itself. So after more than a year I returned to 3.Nc3 and decided to get on friendly terms with 4.e5 against the Winawer.
  

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Re: A system against french for a 1450 elo kid
Reply #7 - 06/13/11 at 19:38:52
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I had all my students play the Exchange with 4.c4.  It's dynamic, and it has the virtue that it forces the position to become open.
  

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