MNb wrote on 06/19/11 at 12:12:22:


Sowray-Cobb never reached this position because black played Bd7 for God knows what reason (bishop belongs on b7 after ...b5 to support the inevitable ...Ne4).

In this position it does precisely nothing. White is in no position to exploit any weakness it might create, and in French Steinitz style black can meet it with ...g6 when white finally plays h6 and end up better (not just equal) even if he has castled.

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It acts against combinations of b4, Ne4, Qa5, and b3, or just against Ne4 depending on the case. There's a reason it's not just Houdini's preferred, it's also practice preferred.

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The position after 11. h5 leads to =+ (engine and human!) regardless of if black "castles into it" or not. White's pieces are too awkward to exploit anything, he has what is basically an inferior French Steinitz.

White has better options against 7...Be7, h4/Qd2/0-0-0 is not one of them (hence why the vast majority of masters that've gotten the position have avoided it).

MNb wrote on 06/18/11 at 22:07:48:


After 9. Qd2 a6 10. 0-0-0 b5 white is fighting an uphill battle. Black hasn't committed to 0-0, so h4 is still left in the air while black's play is fully underway. If practice/Houdini is to be believed then 11. Qe3 is white's best, and white's position doesn't inspire confidence (it's not even clear what his plan is at that point). Rodrigues-Di Paolo, Grenoble Masters 2007 is a good example of how difficult it is for white to generate anything with his clumsy pieces, even if I'm not a fan of black's 11th move (11...Qc7 instead of 11...Qa5 makes more sense)

BirdBrain wrote on 06/18/11 at 20:06:15:


4...d4 gets very, very sharp, so it'd be a question of how much do you want to memorize for a line you may never get.

Objectively it's equal just like 4...c4 is equal, but the nature of play is different, so you need to decide based on looking at the sample continuations between the two.

Samples:

4...d4 5. bxc5 (5. Na3!? is interesting) Bxc5 6. Bd3 (6. Ba3 Qa5 7. Bxc5 Qxc5 8. c3 Nc6 9. cxd4 Nxd4 10. Qa4+ Bd7!! is the point of black's play) Nc6 7. 0-0 Nge7 8. Qe2 is not my cup of tea as a black player. Objectively black is fine, but white's play is easy and straightforward.

BirdBrain wrote on 06/18/11 at 18:47:43:


If you're looking for a remedy that manages to perpetually stay under the radar (not because it's bad, but because it doesn't try to outright refute white's play) while retaining a true French flavor, then consider 1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e5 c5 4. b4 c4!?

Sample lines:

5. c3 a5 6. b5 Nd7 7. d4 (7. d3 is the same thing) cxd3 8. Bxd3 f6 with counterplay

5. a3 Nd7 6. d4 cxd4 7. cxd3 (7. Bxd3 f6 with counterplay) f6 with counterplay.

5. d3 Bxb4+ 6. c3 Ba5!? unclear, probably favors black.

MNb wrote on 06/18/11 at 14:19:45:


8. h4 is too slow to accomplish anything.

8. h4 Nxc5 9. a3 0-0 10. b4 Nd7 11. Bd3 h6 and black is starting to threaten sacrifices on e5 followed by Bf6, or just playing ...f6 (sacrificing the h6 pawn in some cases for more than adequate compensation). Feel free to look at it with Houdini - black is constantly threatening to end up better, and white is the one walking the line to maintain equality.

If instead of 9. a3, 9. Bd3 f6!? and 9...Qb6 both lead to strong activity for black where white has to prove h4 wasn't just a wasted tempo. In this particular line white will often play 0-0, in which case h4 is even more purposeless.

BPaulsen wrote on 06/17/11 at 21:03:46:

I was thinking of 7...Bxc5 8.Bd3 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Qe2 and castling queenside.
7...Be7 can be answered with 8.h4, a move White wants to play anyway.
If this is a good reason for fans of 3...Bb4 to dislike the Two Knights as Black is another matter of course - it's just the only reason I can think of.

BirdBrain wrote on 06/17/11 at 22:29:18:


So long as you know ...g5 isn't always good (ie: if white plays h4 or Bb5), it's a good line. At the minimum it forces white to play a little differently than the normal line, and I've used it to great effect OTB when I was still active in tournaments. Even when GMs have taken the white side against me in blitz online they haven't done anything to produce an edge of some sort, quite often they end up worse if they just play the "normal moves". The fact white should probably alter how he normally approaches the line is a good sign for black, at least from a practical perspective.

When I was in the process of writing an e-book for the French, it was actually the line I was going to recommend for black against the Two Knights/5. Nf3 Steinitz given the gross overanalyzing typically done to the normal main line, which is perfectly fine for black, but sometimes people want options. I never finished writing it because there's obviously better players/authors that can put out books (ie: Watson).

BPaulsen, now that last line you proposed does catch my interest - ...Be7 preparing ...g5.  That is up my alley.  What is your take on that line you just mentioned?