Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) French type position against Trompowsky (Read 8804 times)
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1941
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #12 - 08/15/11 at 09:04:45
Post Tools
Now here's something rather funny I just spotted - Dembo actually treats this precise position (with both sides *two* moves less) as an easy solution to 2 f3 Smiley

Whats interesting is that she:
1) Agrees that g5 is almost the only solution after .. f6 Nf3, reaching a 'very complicated' position.

2) Considers that 7(9 above) .. Qa5 is a 'much simpler' solution based on 8 Qd2 b6 ^ Ba6, 8 Nd2 Qb6 9 Qb3 QxQ ^ c4,b5 etc, 8 Nf3 cd 9 Nxd4 g5.

8 dc is unmentioned and on a rather brief look isn't so 'simple' but does seem objectively fine too - g5 might be blacks best to ensure getting at e5.

Makes me wonder if the Tromp books have anything to say about this? Of course some of Dembo's evaluations could be lingering bias attendant from whites 'daft' second move Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1500
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #11 - 07/20/11 at 19:00:25
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 07/20/11 at 11:29:05:
The thing I really meant to warn against was black just developing without some very concrete idea of how to break the center down and/or cope with its existence. That won't work.


I agree on this. Lakdawala's comments to this line are not really helpful for either Black or White IMO. It is an interesting line, though. Now I want to try it out OTB!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1941
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #10 - 07/20/11 at 11:29:05
Post Tools
Well you'll have to if you want to castle without going cd, and I really don't think you want to give white Nc3 for 'free' here, because its not at all obvious how its getting out otherwise.

Now a direct f6, g5 is the sort of thing you'd like to work Smiley And you know my sillicon doesn't think its half bad.

10 .. f6 11 Nf3 g5!? 12 ef gf (Nxf6) 13 f7+ Kxf7 etc is a bit scary, but nothing that the crazier brand of French defence folk aren't used to.... 

And the rest seems more or less OK too, with 12 g3 cd 13 cd g4 14 Nh4 Ndxe5 seeming a lot of fun. There's a very handy tactic with d4 then Bb4 getting the piece back.

Obviously please don't blame me if you get smashed to bits Smiley

The thing I really meant to warn against was black just developing without some very concrete idea of how to break the center down and/or cope with its existence. That won't work.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1500
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #9 - 07/20/11 at 09:39:48
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 07/20/11 at 09:34:11:
Well when black goes Be7/o-o/f6 etc in the very similar French Tarrasch positions he generally has to then resort to Nxe5 sacrifices because whites center is still just to strong to tolerate after fe fe. They're often quite effective mind, but quite delicate/commital, and the different Qd2/Be3 set up could be enough to deter.

Or not of course Smiley But it would be something you'd have to check and probably quite carefully with it, while a5,a4 is always going to work OK as whites development is still somewhat messed up here.


Don't know if I would like to play ..Be7 to prepare ...f6. Why not keep the bishop ready to go to b4, e.g.? I agree that Black has to play pretty radically in the Tarrasch. Maybe Black can go for ...f6 and ...g5 to break up White's center. I myself have trouble playing those plans as Black, but they often seem like a good idea in the French. The biggest problem will be to hide the King somewhere, but that might be a problem for both sides  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1941
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #8 - 07/20/11 at 09:34:11
Post Tools
Well when black goes Be7/o-o/f6 etc in the very similar French Tarrasch positions he generally has to then resort to Nxe5 sacrifices because whites center is still just to strong to tolerate after fe fe. They're often quite effective mind, but quite delicate/commital, and the different Qd2/Be3 set up could be enough to deter.

Or not of course Smiley But it would be something you'd have to check and probably quite carefully with it, while a5,a4 is always going to work OK as whites development is still somewhat messed up here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1500
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #7 - 07/19/11 at 21:17:13
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 06/19/11 at 20:15:35:
Black's plan is to probe for weaknesses so that his pieces will have stable squares on the Q-side. ie: a5-a4, if white meets it with a3, opens up Na5-b3, or Na5 (Q moves somewhere) Nb6-c4. If white lets the pawn reach a3, then b4 becomes a permanent outpost for pieces (ie: Moreno Ruiz-Mitkov, Mondariz 1999). If white plays a4 to prevent further pushing then ...cxd4 will open up both b4 and b3 for usage (ie: Hodgson-Hug, Horgen 1994). This is a way to offset the space disadvantage incurred when white gains the e5 pawn wedge. The idea is more well known from the French Tarrasch with 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4, so studying some games in that where black uses this idea may help you understand the position.

One other thing to keep in mind is black, if he gets the chance, would love to block the position with ...f5, borrowing the French idea in order to slow down white's kingside pawn avalanche some.


The interesting thing is that Lawdawala mentions this line in a side variation in Play the London, citing only Lakdawala-A. Pixton, Internet Blitz 2000. He claims that White has a massive space advantage, but gives no good concrete lines really. To me Black looks a bit cramped, but no more than in many French lines as you say. Maybe even ...f6 could work with some preparation?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vass
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1105
Joined: 06/22/11
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #6 - 06/29/11 at 08:51:50
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 06/19/11 at 23:44:49:
chesswise wrote on 06/19/11 at 21:33:45:
By the way, what do you know about the position after 6.Nc3 instead of 6.e5 BPaulsen?


6. Nc3 c5 produces a position I've gotten before as black from the Fantasy Caro-Kann (1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. f3 e6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Bf4 c5). It's not a very common position at all, but black seems to be fine (granted I haven't dug all that deeply into it compared to other lines).

Aside from that, if black chooses not to play ...c5, and prefers Bb4 or Be7 white's Bf4/f3 isn't exactly well suited towards fighting against the French so locking the center with e5 should be something white is very careful about, but with the fluid center you'd have to compare what's going on to the analagous Veresov positions that share significant similarity. The positions should have approximately equal chances with plenty of room for either side to be outplayed.

Hi BPau!
I'm StevenVass from FICS. For my regret, I don't have time to enter FICS all to often. But I really appreciate your deep positional knowledge and understanding of chess. Your last posts in this topic prove my statement is true.
I'm glad you're here, too..  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chesswise
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 44
Joined: 05/07/11
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #5 - 06/20/11 at 08:38:00
Post Tools
Indeed, in another game with Adams, Michael-Hug, Werner I think black showed that 6-Bb4 7.e5 Nfd7 8.a3 Bxc3 was not optimal for white who can't play Qg4 as in a normal Winawer. 8-Be7 9.Be3 c5 can be compared to the classical French with the input of the moves a3 for white and Be7 for black. In other words as you say white should probably refrain from playing e5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #4 - 06/19/11 at 23:44:49
Post Tools
chesswise wrote on 06/19/11 at 21:33:45:
By the way, what do you know about the position after 6.Nc3 instead of 6.e5 BPaulsen?


6. Nc3 c5 produces a position I've gotten before as black from the Fantasy Caro-Kann (1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. f3 e6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Bf4 c5). It's not a very common position at all, but black seems to be fine (granted I haven't dug all that deeply into it compared to other lines).

Aside from that, if black chooses not to play ...c5, and prefers Bb4 or Be7 white's Bf4/f3 isn't exactly well suited towards fighting against the French so locking the center with e5 should be something white is very careful about, but with the fluid center you'd have to compare what's going on to the analagous Veresov positions that share significant similarity. The positions should have approximately equal chances with plenty of room for either side to be outplayed.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
chesswise
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 44
Joined: 05/07/11
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #3 - 06/19/11 at 21:33:45
Post Tools
By the way, what do you know about the position after 6.Nc3 instead of 6.e5 BPaulsen?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chesswise
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 44
Joined: 05/07/11
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #2 - 06/19/11 at 21:24:11
Post Tools
I was looking at some of those games and wondering the reason for some of the moves like for example Qb3 in Hodgson-Hug. However now I understand it thanks to your explanation. Thank you!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: French type position against Trompowsky
Reply #1 - 06/19/11 at 20:15:35
Post Tools
Black's plan is to probe for weaknesses so that his pieces will have stable squares on the Q-side. ie: a5-a4, if white meets it with a3, opens up Na5-b3, or Na5 (Q moves somewhere) Nb6-c4. If white lets the pawn reach a3, then b4 becomes a permanent outpost for pieces (ie: Moreno Ruiz-Mitkov, Mondariz 1999). If white plays a4 to prevent further pushing then ...cxd4 will open up both b4 and b3 for usage (ie: Hodgson-Hug, Horgen 1994). This is a way to offset the space disadvantage incurred when white gains the e5 pawn wedge. The idea is more well known from the French Tarrasch with 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4, so studying some games in that where black uses this idea may help you understand the position.

One other thing to keep in mind is black, if he gets the chance, would love to block the position with ...f5, borrowing the French idea in order to slow down white's kingside pawn avalanche some.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
chesswise
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 44
Joined: 05/07/11
French type position against Trompowsky
06/19/11 at 15:30:16
Post Tools
Hello!

First of all forgive me for not posting a more theoretical position which might interest more of you. However, unfortunately I've been looking at this variation for black and cannot understand the reasons for blacks play and simply had to ask about it. Anyway the position I'm considering is this:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.f3 Nf6 5.e4 e6 6.e5 Nfd7 7.Be3 c5 8.c3 Nc6 9.f4 Qb6 10.Qd2

Since its probably not a very common position here's a diagram:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Good players continue 10-a5 11.Nf3 a4 which makes sense in a way considering that white should aim to play on the kingside and black on the queenside, but what I don't get is what is blacks concrete plan. In what ways can he create counterplay on the queenside? I have been looking at a number of games and I've not really found a model game of how to play for black. If you can find such a model game please post the name of it!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo