NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/23/11 at 09:37:35:


All he said was that your understanding of the game is different than his.

Still, as a moderator he should move several entries to a KG thread, as this Bb5 vs Bc4 debate has nothing to do with the topic of 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Nd4N

Thx Mnb,

I agree that the in the line 5.Bc4,Bg4 6.d3,
6...Nd4! looks strong, and 7.h4 is indeed an "only move".
However matters are perhaps not entirely hopeless for white (to hold the balance). Since he probably is going for Q-side castling anyway.

But I am less pessimistic on the eval of 5.Bb5

5.Bb5,Nge7 (Also possible is 5....Bd7 while after other replies White seems to get a small advantage)
6.Na4!? (suggestion Mnb)
And now both 6....Bg4 and 6...a6 are imho perfectly playable:

6.Na4,Bg4 7.Nxc5,dxc5 8.d3,0-0 9.c3,Qd6
(reference games T.Taylor - Atoufi, LA, 2011; is T. allready promoting his forthcoming book?; or the high level corr. game Zillich-Rennert, 2005)

There is also

6.Na4,a6!? 7.Bxc6,Nxc6 8.Nxc5,dxc5 9.d3,Bg4 10.h3,Bxf3
11.Qxf3,Qd4!? 12.c3,Qd6/d7 and black has a playable game after queenside castling.
(game reference Fruebing-Lacrosse, Calvia, 2009)

Wow this has become an interesting discussion:

First a post on the merits of 2...Nc6 3.Nc3,Bc5
a variation which has a strong connection to both the Vienna and the KG-declined 2....Bc5.
White has a choice between 4.Nf3 and 4.fxe

4.Nf3,d6
The fact that Black has not yet committed himself to ...Nf6 makes an interesting difference to the usual KG-declined 2...Bc5 lines.

(A) 5.Bc4,Bg4  (5....Nf6 is a direct trans to the main line 2...Bc5)
6.d3,              (White reached nothing with Na4 in Forster-Smyslov)
6....., Bxf3       (6...Nf6 7.Na4! is somewhat better for white)
7.Qxf3,Nd4
And now if the queen returns to d1 or f2 Black is more than all right.
The unsolved question is if White could play like the Chigorin line of the 2...Bc5 variation:
8.Qg3!?,Nxc2+ 9.Kd1,Nxa1 10.fxe
A position that has not occurred before.

B) 5.Bb5
Is an interesting alternative to 5.Bc4. But i would think that after
5.....Nge7
black has not much to worry about.

C) 5.d3,a6=


II.4.fxe,d6!
This is indeed a well tested gambit, while the alternative 4...Bxg1 is downright bad in this particular position as was allready shown in 1907 Spielmann-Duras.

5.exd6      
5.Nf3,dxe5 seems like a position of the KG-declined where white has taken perhaps somewhat premature on e5.
At least it does not seem advisable for White to go after the pawn with
6.Bb5,Bd7 7.Bxc6,Bxc6 8.Nxe5,Qd4
or
6.Bb5,Nge7 7.Nxe5,0-0

5.exd6,Qxd6
6.Nf3,Bg4

and now black has compensation after  both
7.Bb5,0-0-0 (or even Nge7)
or
7.d3,0-0-0 8.Be2(hector-pavlovic,1989) Nf6

NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/22/11 at 09:33:32:


1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bb5! is the best move by a long shot.  If you don't think White is definitely better, all I can say is that your understanding of this game is significantly different from mine.

Is it really? Black just goes 6. ... Nge7 and is doing fine, I'd say. Accepting the pawn sac is very dangerous for white.

NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/21/11 at 08:30:01:


Of course the problem with this is that 4 Nf3 d6 5 Bc4 is the King's Gambit declined, and white has the extra option of 5 Bb5 with this move order...

@NeverGiveUp : I know this gambit and it's a good one. But it's also the third choice after 3. ... exf4 and 3. ... d6 (3. ... Nf6 is bad : like a Halloween for white but without giving a piece for this position).

@ArticMonkey : the comparison with Marshall is only to make reacts from posters ...