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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C25: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-) (Read 18011 times)
OstapBender
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #30 - 06/23/11 at 15:50:04
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micawber wrote on 06/23/11 at 06:57:29:
5.Bb5,Nge7 (Also possible is 5....Bd7 while after other replies White seems to get a small advantage)

Is there a problem with 5...Bg4 or does this just transpose to 5...Nge7 lines (after 6.Na4 Nge7)?
  

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TalJechin
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #29 - 06/23/11 at 12:56:20
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/23/11 at 09:37:35:
Markovich wrote on 06/22/11 at 14:20:36:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/22/11 at 09:33:32:
Is it really? Black just goes 6. ... Nge7 and is doing fine, I'd say. Accepting the pawn sac is very dangerous for white.


1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bb5! is the best move by a long shot.  If you don't think White is definitely better, all I can say is that your understanding of this game is significantly different from mine.


I was under the impression that personal attacks on this forum were not wanted and when posted were removed by the moderator.

However since you are the moderator I don't suppose you will be removing your own post.

Having said this posts like this seriously demotivate me to put any more posts on the forum.

BTW Micawber below agrees with me that black is OK after Bb5, and gives some interesting variations to support his view.


All he said was that your understanding of the game is different than his.

Still, as a moderator he should move several entries to a KG thread, as this Bb5 vs Bc4 debate has nothing to do with the topic of 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Nd4N
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #28 - 06/23/11 at 09:37:35
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Markovich wrote on 06/22/11 at 14:20:36:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/22/11 at 09:33:32:
Is it really? Black just goes 6. ... Nge7 and is doing fine, I'd say. Accepting the pawn sac is very dangerous for white.


1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bb5! is the best move by a long shot.  If you don't think White is definitely better, all I can say is that your understanding of this game is significantly different from mine.


I was under the impression that personal attacks on this forum were not wanted and when posted were removed by the moderator.

However since you are the moderator I don't suppose you will be removing your own post.

Having said this posts like this seriously demotivate me to put any more posts on the forum.

BTW Micawber below agrees with me that black is OK after Bb5, and gives some interesting variations to support his view.
  
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micawber
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #27 - 06/23/11 at 06:57:29
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Thx Mnb,

I agree that the in the line 5.Bc4,Bg4 6.d3,
6...Nd4! looks strong, and 7.h4 is indeed an "only move".
However matters are perhaps not entirely hopeless for white (to hold the balance). Since he probably is going for Q-side castling anyway.

But I am less pessimistic on the eval of 5.Bb5

5.Bb5,Nge7 (Also possible is 5....Bd7 while after other replies White seems to get a small advantage)
6.Na4!? (suggestion Mnb)
And now both 6....Bg4 and 6...a6 are imho perfectly playable:

6.Na4,Bg4 7.Nxc5,dxc5 8.d3,0-0 9.c3,Qd6
(reference games T.Taylor - Atoufi, LA, 2011; is T. allready promoting his forthcoming book?; or the high level corr. game Zillich-Rennert, 2005)

There is also

6.Na4,a6!? 7.Bxc6,Nxc6 8.Nxc5,dxc5 9.d3,Bg4 10.h3,Bxf3
11.Qxf3,Qd4!? 12.c3,Qd6/d7 and black has a playable game after queenside castling.
(game reference Fruebing-Lacrosse, Calvia, 2009)
  
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MNb
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #26 - 06/22/11 at 20:01:18
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1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bc4 Bg4 6.d3 and now immediately Nd4 looks much more logical. Rybka only thinks 7.h4 OK, a move White very much does not want to play. That line with 6...Bxf3 seems to give White fine compensation.
5.Bb5 Nge7 6.Na4 seems to give a solid edge though.
Note that this is important for the KG as well: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 Nc6 directly transposes.
  

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micawber
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #25 - 06/22/11 at 18:33:07
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Wow this has become an interesting discussion:

First a post on the merits of 2...Nc6 3.Nc3,Bc5
a variation which has a strong connection to both the Vienna and the KG-declined 2....Bc5.
White has a choice between 4.Nf3 and 4.fxe

4.Nf3,d6
The fact that Black has not yet committed himself to ...Nf6 makes an interesting difference to the usual KG-declined 2...Bc5 lines.

(A) 5.Bc4,Bg4  (5....Nf6 is a direct trans to the main line 2...Bc5)
6.d3,              (White reached nothing with Na4 in Forster-Smyslov)
6....., Bxf3       (6...Nf6 7.Na4! is somewhat better for white)
7.Qxf3,Nd4
And now if the queen returns to d1 or f2 Black is more than all right.
The unsolved question is if White could play like the Chigorin line of the 2...Bc5 variation:
8.Qg3!?,Nxc2+ 9.Kd1,Nxa1 10.fxe
A position that has not occurred before.

B) 5.Bb5
Is an interesting alternative to 5.Bc4. But i would think that after
5.....Nge7
black has not much to worry about.

C) 5.d3,a6=


II.4.fxe,d6!
This is indeed a well tested gambit, while the alternative 4...Bxg1 is downright bad in this particular position as was allready shown in 1907 Spielmann-Duras.

5.exd6      
5.Nf3,dxe5 seems like a position of the KG-declined where white has taken perhaps somewhat premature on e5.
At least it does not seem advisable for White to go after the pawn with
6.Bb5,Bd7 7.Bxc6,Bxc6 8.Nxe5,Qd4
or
6.Bb5,Nge7 7.Nxe5,0-0

5.exd6,Qxd6
6.Nf3,Bg4

and now black has compensation after  both
7.Bb5,0-0-0 (or even Nge7)
or
7.d3,0-0-0 8.Be2(hector-pavlovic,1989) Nf6


  
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MNb
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #24 - 06/22/11 at 16:49:07
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Pantu wrote on 06/21/11 at 20:28:41:
Of course the problem with this is that 4 Nf3 d6 5 Bc4 is the King's Gambit declined, and white has the extra option of 5 Bb5 with this move order...

Fortunately 5.Bb5 is a good move, as 5.Bc4 Bg4 equalizes on the spot, Forster-Smyslov, Zürich 1998.
  

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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #23 - 06/22/11 at 14:20:36
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/22/11 at 09:33:32:
Is it really? Black just goes 6. ... Nge7 and is doing fine, I'd say. Accepting the pawn sac is very dangerous for white.


1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bb5! is the best move by a long shot.  If you don't think White is definitely better, all I can say is that your understanding of this game is significantly different from mine.
  

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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #22 - 06/22/11 at 12:05:51
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Daniel De Noose alternatively proposes 3...Cd4, look here: http://www.france-echecs.com/index.php?mode=showComment&art=20110619233442139 .

I'd like 4.Nf3 (if other moves were good, Black could just transpose: 3...d6 4.Nf3 Nd4) 4...d6 5.d3 (5.f5; 5.Nb5) 5...c6!? 6.Nxd4 (6.Be3 Qb6 7.Kd2!?) exd4 7.Ne2 Qb6 8.c3 with a (very) slight plus for White. Why should it be bad to move a piece twice in the opening? 
Grin

You could argue that 3...d6 4.Nf3 Nd4 is more precise, in this move order a number of games have been played. There are also 3.Nd5 games, but the Fyfe Gambit 3.d4 is perhaps more annoying for a would-be-De-Noose-Counter-Gambiteer. To keep the initiative, he can react with 3...d5.
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #21 - 06/22/11 at 09:33:32
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Is it really? Black just goes 6. ... Nge7 and is doing fine, I'd say. Accepting the pawn sac is very dangerous for white.
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #20 - 06/22/11 at 02:03:25
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And indeed 5.Bb5 is a very strong move, imho.
  

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Pantu
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #19 - 06/21/11 at 20:28:41
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/21/11 at 08:30:01:
I have done good shop over the years with another gambit which is similar, but probably better for black than Nd4:

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5! 4.fe5: d6 5.ed6: Qd6:

Quite a lot of whites do accept so go 4.fe5:

A usual continuation is 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Bb5 Nge7, when black is very well placed and white is struggling. My results with this line have been excellent.


Of course the problem with this is that 4 Nf3 d6 5 Bc4 is the King's Gambit declined, and white has the extra option of 5 Bb5 with this move order...
  
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TalJechin
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #18 - 06/21/11 at 10:45:25
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The problem with 3...Nd4 is that it leads to slightly dull positions, Black is exchanging his best minor pieces and seem to end up in the slightly less promising position.

4.Nce2 d5 5.c3 Nc6 6.exd5 Qxd5 7.fxe5 Nxe5 8.d4 Ng6 9.Nf4 is dull and may well lead to a draw in the end, but White's pawn on d4 still gives him something to work with.

What was played in your game seems a simple solution for white, after 7.Bxf3 I'd give white the edge as black has developed his pieces only to exchange them. And 10.Ne3 in the game would definitely be a bit better for white.

Even after 4.fxe5 d6 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.Be2 Bxf3 7.Bxf3 dxe5 8.0-0 Bc5 9.Kh1 it's easier to find plans for white who has the f-file, centre and better bishop (or bishop pair if Nxf3 never happens).

So, this new gambit seems a bit passive-aggressive, it's only if white accepts the gambit that black gets any play...
« Last Edit: 06/21/11 at 21:31:40 by TalJechin »  
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Daniel De Noose
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #17 - 06/21/11 at 08:45:45
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@NeverGiveUp : I know this gambit and it's a good one. But it's also the third choice after 3. ... exf4 and 3. ... d6 (3. ... Nf6 is bad : like a Halloween for white but without giving a piece for this position).

@ArticMonkey : the comparison with Marshall is only to make reacts from posters ... Wink
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #16 - 06/21/11 at 08:40:50
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@ArticMonkey :

On e6 I prefer to take with the pawn and opening the f file. After Nf3 e5 and than if Bc4 Bg4
  
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