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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C25: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-) (Read 18012 times)
OstapBender
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #30 - 06/23/11 at 15:50:04
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micawber wrote on 06/23/11 at 06:57:29:
5.Bb5,Nge7 (Also possible is 5....Bd7 while after other replies White seems to get a small advantage)

Is there a problem with 5...Bg4 or does this just transpose to 5...Nge7 lines (after 6.Na4 Nge7)?
  

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TalJechin
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #29 - 06/23/11 at 12:56:20
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/23/11 at 09:37:35:
Markovich wrote on 06/22/11 at 14:20:36:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/22/11 at 09:33:32:
Is it really? Black just goes 6. ... Nge7 and is doing fine, I'd say. Accepting the pawn sac is very dangerous for white.


1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bb5! is the best move by a long shot.  If you don't think White is definitely better, all I can say is that your understanding of this game is significantly different from mine.


I was under the impression that personal attacks on this forum were not wanted and when posted were removed by the moderator.

However since you are the moderator I don't suppose you will be removing your own post.

Having said this posts like this seriously demotivate me to put any more posts on the forum.

BTW Micawber below agrees with me that black is OK after Bb5, and gives some interesting variations to support his view.


All he said was that your understanding of the game is different than his.

Still, as a moderator he should move several entries to a KG thread, as this Bb5 vs Bc4 debate has nothing to do with the topic of 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Nd4N
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #28 - 06/23/11 at 09:37:35
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Markovich wrote on 06/22/11 at 14:20:36:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/22/11 at 09:33:32:
Is it really? Black just goes 6. ... Nge7 and is doing fine, I'd say. Accepting the pawn sac is very dangerous for white.


1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bb5! is the best move by a long shot.  If you don't think White is definitely better, all I can say is that your understanding of this game is significantly different from mine.


I was under the impression that personal attacks on this forum were not wanted and when posted were removed by the moderator.

However since you are the moderator I don't suppose you will be removing your own post.

Having said this posts like this seriously demotivate me to put any more posts on the forum.

BTW Micawber below agrees with me that black is OK after Bb5, and gives some interesting variations to support his view.
  
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micawber
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #27 - 06/23/11 at 06:57:29
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Thx Mnb,

I agree that the in the line 5.Bc4,Bg4 6.d3,
6...Nd4! looks strong, and 7.h4 is indeed an "only move".
However matters are perhaps not entirely hopeless for white (to hold the balance). Since he probably is going for Q-side castling anyway.

But I am less pessimistic on the eval of 5.Bb5

5.Bb5,Nge7 (Also possible is 5....Bd7 while after other replies White seems to get a small advantage)
6.Na4!? (suggestion Mnb)
And now both 6....Bg4 and 6...a6 are imho perfectly playable:

6.Na4,Bg4 7.Nxc5,dxc5 8.d3,0-0 9.c3,Qd6
(reference games T.Taylor - Atoufi, LA, 2011; is T. allready promoting his forthcoming book?; or the high level corr. game Zillich-Rennert, 2005)

There is also

6.Na4,a6!? 7.Bxc6,Nxc6 8.Nxc5,dxc5 9.d3,Bg4 10.h3,Bxf3
11.Qxf3,Qd4!? 12.c3,Qd6/d7 and black has a playable game after queenside castling.
(game reference Fruebing-Lacrosse, Calvia, 2009)
  
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MNb
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #26 - 06/22/11 at 20:01:18
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1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bc4 Bg4 6.d3 and now immediately Nd4 looks much more logical. Rybka only thinks 7.h4 OK, a move White very much does not want to play. That line with 6...Bxf3 seems to give White fine compensation.
5.Bb5 Nge7 6.Na4 seems to give a solid edge though.
Note that this is important for the KG as well: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 Nc6 directly transposes.
  

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micawber
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #25 - 06/22/11 at 18:33:07
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Wow this has become an interesting discussion:

First a post on the merits of 2...Nc6 3.Nc3,Bc5
a variation which has a strong connection to both the Vienna and the KG-declined 2....Bc5.
White has a choice between 4.Nf3 and 4.fxe

4.Nf3,d6
The fact that Black has not yet committed himself to ...Nf6 makes an interesting difference to the usual KG-declined 2...Bc5 lines.

(A) 5.Bc4,Bg4  (5....Nf6 is a direct trans to the main line 2...Bc5)
6.d3,              (White reached nothing with Na4 in Forster-Smyslov)
6....., Bxf3       (6...Nf6 7.Na4! is somewhat better for white)
7.Qxf3,Nd4
And now if the queen returns to d1 or f2 Black is more than all right.
The unsolved question is if White could play like the Chigorin line of the 2...Bc5 variation:
8.Qg3!?,Nxc2+ 9.Kd1,Nxa1 10.fxe
A position that has not occurred before.

B) 5.Bb5
Is an interesting alternative to 5.Bc4. But i would think that after
5.....Nge7
black has not much to worry about.

C) 5.d3,a6=


II.4.fxe,d6!
This is indeed a well tested gambit, while the alternative 4...Bxg1 is downright bad in this particular position as was allready shown in 1907 Spielmann-Duras.

5.exd6      
5.Nf3,dxe5 seems like a position of the KG-declined where white has taken perhaps somewhat premature on e5.
At least it does not seem advisable for White to go after the pawn with
6.Bb5,Bd7 7.Bxc6,Bxc6 8.Nxe5,Qd4
or
6.Bb5,Nge7 7.Nxe5,0-0

5.exd6,Qxd6
6.Nf3,Bg4

and now black has compensation after  both
7.Bb5,0-0-0 (or even Nge7)
or
7.d3,0-0-0 8.Be2(hector-pavlovic,1989) Nf6


  
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MNb
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #24 - 06/22/11 at 16:49:07
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Pantu wrote on 06/21/11 at 20:28:41:
Of course the problem with this is that 4 Nf3 d6 5 Bc4 is the King's Gambit declined, and white has the extra option of 5 Bb5 with this move order...

Fortunately 5.Bb5 is a good move, as 5.Bc4 Bg4 equalizes on the spot, Forster-Smyslov, Zürich 1998.
  

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Markovich
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #23 - 06/22/11 at 14:20:36
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/22/11 at 09:33:32:
Is it really? Black just goes 6. ... Nge7 and is doing fine, I'd say. Accepting the pawn sac is very dangerous for white.


1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5 4.Nf3 d6 5.Bb5! is the best move by a long shot.  If you don't think White is definitely better, all I can say is that your understanding of this game is significantly different from mine.
  

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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #22 - 06/22/11 at 12:05:51
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Daniel De Noose alternatively proposes 3...Cd4, look here: http://www.france-echecs.com/index.php?mode=showComment&art=20110619233442139 .

I'd like 4.Nf3 (if other moves were good, Black could just transpose: 3...d6 4.Nf3 Nd4) 4...d6 5.d3 (5.f5; 5.Nb5) 5...c6!? 6.Nxd4 (6.Be3 Qb6 7.Kd2!?) exd4 7.Ne2 Qb6 8.c3 with a (very) slight plus for White. Why should it be bad to move a piece twice in the opening? 
Grin

You could argue that 3...d6 4.Nf3 Nd4 is more precise, in this move order a number of games have been played. There are also 3.Nd5 games, but the Fyfe Gambit 3.d4 is perhaps more annoying for a would-be-De-Noose-Counter-Gambiteer. To keep the initiative, he can react with 3...d5.
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #21 - 06/22/11 at 09:33:32
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Is it really? Black just goes 6. ... Nge7 and is doing fine, I'd say. Accepting the pawn sac is very dangerous for white.
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #20 - 06/22/11 at 02:03:25
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And indeed 5.Bb5 is a very strong move, imho.
  

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Pantu
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #19 - 06/21/11 at 20:28:41
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 06/21/11 at 08:30:01:
I have done good shop over the years with another gambit which is similar, but probably better for black than Nd4:

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5! 4.fe5: d6 5.ed6: Qd6:

Quite a lot of whites do accept so go 4.fe5:

A usual continuation is 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Bb5 Nge7, when black is very well placed and white is struggling. My results with this line have been excellent.


Of course the problem with this is that 4 Nf3 d6 5 Bc4 is the King's Gambit declined, and white has the extra option of 5 Bb5 with this move order...
  
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TalJechin
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #18 - 06/21/11 at 10:45:25
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The problem with 3...Nd4 is that it leads to slightly dull positions, Black is exchanging his best minor pieces and seem to end up in the slightly less promising position.

4.Nce2 d5 5.c3 Nc6 6.exd5 Qxd5 7.fxe5 Nxe5 8.d4 Ng6 9.Nf4 is dull and may well lead to a draw in the end, but White's pawn on d4 still gives him something to work with.

What was played in your game seems a simple solution for white, after 7.Bxf3 I'd give white the edge as black has developed his pieces only to exchange them. And 10.Ne3 in the game would definitely be a bit better for white.

Even after 4.fxe5 d6 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.Be2 Bxf3 7.Bxf3 dxe5 8.0-0 Bc5 9.Kh1 it's easier to find plans for white who has the f-file, centre and better bishop (or bishop pair if Nxf3 never happens).

So, this new gambit seems a bit passive-aggressive, it's only if white accepts the gambit that black gets any play...
« Last Edit: 06/21/11 at 21:31:40 by TalJechin »  
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Daniel De Noose
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #17 - 06/21/11 at 08:45:45
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@NeverGiveUp : I know this gambit and it's a good one. But it's also the third choice after 3. ... exf4 and 3. ... d6 (3. ... Nf6 is bad : like a Halloween for white but without giving a piece for this position).

@ArticMonkey : the comparison with Marshall is only to make reacts from posters ... Wink
  
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Daniel De Noose
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #16 - 06/21/11 at 08:40:50
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@ArticMonkey :

On e6 I prefer to take with the pawn and opening the f file. After Nf3 e5 and than if Bc4 Bg4
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #15 - 06/21/11 at 08:30:01
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I have done good shop over the years with another gambit which is similar, but probably better for black than Nd4:

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Bc5! 4.fe5: d6 5.ed6: Qd6:

Quite a lot of whites do accept so go 4.fe5:

A usual continuation is 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Bb5 Nge7, when black is very well placed and white is struggling. My results with this line have been excellent.
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #14 - 06/21/11 at 07:50:35
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I think its interesting, but i think ive found a good way for white here (and im going to accept the gambit!)

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Nd4!? 4.fxe5 d6 5.e6!? Bxe6 6.Nf3

6...Bg4 7.Be2 Bxf3 8.Bxf3 Nf6 9.0-0 i think is better for White.

6...Nxf3 7.Qxf3 Nf6 8.d4 is better for White i think as well.

INTERESTING GAMBIT! However, i wouldnt compare it with the marshall dude, the Vienna is rare and well, the gambit doesnt look nearly as scary at all to me. Perhaps a little ambitious of in the comparison department
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #13 - 06/21/11 at 07:49:10
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Glenn Snow wrote on 06/21/11 at 03:49:36:
I was just about to suggest 5...Nc6 myself which is rather logical.  I'm quite amazed that this 3...Nd4 move appears to be completely playable.  Consider that in the Petrov that White often tries to undermine the Knight on e4 with the c4 break I would have thought Black was just asking for it here, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  I suppose the kingside weakening that f4 enables a move like ...Nd4.  I'm not sure how important this variation is though because I was under the impression that 3...exf4 favored Black.  Perhaps a better move order would be 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nc3 (3.Nf3!, I think) 3...Nd4.


Actually just realized my transposition comment doesn't make a lot of sense because Black can still play 3...exf4.  However, 3...Nd4 although perhaps objectively inferior to 3...exf4 is easier to learn I'd think.
  
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Daniel De Noose
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #12 - 06/21/11 at 07:34:25
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It's interesting to see everybody searching a good way in rejecting the Gambit. No one tries to accept it ? Wink

Is it like the Marshall in the Spanish ? So good than everybody doesn't play it with white (Even Kasparov never accept the Marshall). Wink
  
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Daniel De Noose
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #11 - 06/21/11 at 07:25:36
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Yes TN but because you play a bad move for black : 5. ... dxe5 is not good. You have to play 5. ... Bg4 before taking on e5.
  
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TN
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #10 - 06/21/11 at 07:23:11
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On a quick glance, 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Nd4 4.Nf3 d6 5.fe5 de5 6.Bc4 looks better for White. However I haven't checked this with an engine.
  

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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #9 - 06/21/11 at 07:13:49
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Daniel De Noose wrote on 06/21/11 at 07:01:30:
At the beginning it's the move order on my game ...

And if 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 (as you suggest) then f5!

It's Adelaïde Counter Gambit. A very good one : on Mega2011 there is 206 games on it with a 61.7 success rate for black.


I didn't even notice that was the actual game continuation.  I'm familiar with the 3...f5 gambit and it is an excellent practical weapon but I'm thinking that theoretically White is in good shape here, for what it's worth.  There are some experts here on the forum on that gambit and I think at least one thread devoted to it (or at least hidden in one of the KG threads).
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #8 - 06/21/11 at 07:01:30
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At the beginning it's the move order on my game ...

And if 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 (as you suggest) then f5!

It's Adelaïde Counter Gambit. A very good one : on Mega2011 there is 206 games on it with a 61.7 success rate for black.
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #7 - 06/21/11 at 03:49:36
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I was just about to suggest 5...Nc6 myself which is rather logical.  I'm quite amazed that this 3...Nd4 move appears to be completely playable.  Consider that in the Petrov that White often tries to undermine the Knight on e4 with the c4 break I would have thought Black was just asking for it here, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  I suppose the kingside weakening that f4 enables a move like ...Nd4.  I'm not sure how important this variation is though because I was under the impression that 3...exf4 favored Black.  Perhaps a better move order would be 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nc3 (3.Nf3!, I think) 3...Nd4.
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #6 - 06/20/11 at 22:59:04
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5. c3 is surely more interesting if black plays Nxe2 but I prefer continuing in gambit style with 5. ... Nc6 (strange ? not at all ... Where will go the knight e2 now ?

4.Nce2 d5 5.c3 Nc6

A) 6.Ng3 exf4 7.exd5 Nb4!? with interesting position.

B) 6.exd5 Qxd5 7.fxe5 Nxe5 8.Nf4 Qe4+ 9.Qe2 Qxf4 with double edge position but maybe draw.
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #5 - 06/20/11 at 22:31:27
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Daniel De Noose wrote on 06/20/11 at 21:43:27:
Thanks Tal Wink

On 4.Nce2 (not a logical move for a gambit player as  white here) you can take a look on 4. ... d5!

Maybe there are other ways but I tried 4. ... d5 on blitz game with success.


Yeah, I know. Wasn't sure if I liked the engine's 5.Nxd4 exd4 6.e5 though.

But maybe 5.c3!? e.g: 5...Nxe2 6.Bxe2 exf4 7.Nf3 with a reasonable KG-position.
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #4 - 06/20/11 at 21:43:27
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Thanks Tal Wink

On 4.Nce2 (not a logical move for a gambit player as  white here) you can take a look on 4. ... d5!

Maybe there are other ways but I tried 4. ... d5 on blitz game with success.
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #3 - 06/20/11 at 21:28:53
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Congratulations on finding a new variation on move three! Nice to see that there is still something new to discover even in the first few moves.

I can't find any precedent game either, though it might perhaps transpose to something in a few more moves.

The question is if black can make any use of the knight on d4 or if it will just have to retreat or exchange itself. For example, 4.Nce2 may be a sensible reply - if there is nothing sharper that works.
  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #2 - 06/20/11 at 20:57:43
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My Opponent is FIDE 2078
And me I'm now FIDE 1862

Sorry I don't know how to convert in BCF ratings.

  
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Re: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
Reply #1 - 06/20/11 at 20:52:13
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Well, just about anything's playable up to a certain level, but I don't think I'd try this one. Can I ask your rating and that of your opponent in that game?
  

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C25: A new GOOD gambit ! ;-)
06/20/11 at 20:32:26
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Sorry for my english. Be cool with me ! Wink


A few months ago, reviewing some lines in my openings I realized what I was playing against the Vienna Game with 3.f4 does not completely enchanted me ...

So I searched a line that would please me ... But, oh surprise, there was nothing that pleased me. So I just had to find a new line.

And so I got this crazy idea to destabilize my opponent:

1. e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Nd4!?

At first glance you say "this is wrong," "anything", "playing 2 times the knight in the first 3 moves, he's crazy," ...

But I invite you to take a little look anyway.

I finally tried my new opening (and yes apparently a novelty because I don’t have found any game in the Chessbase’s Mega2011) last weekend in the Fourmies’ International Open.

And the result was immediate: my opponent looked at me first for a few seconds and then plunged into a deep reflection of 20 minutes before playing his fourth move. Then another 10 minutes for the fifth and finally arrived at the 12th shot he had used more than 1:25 from his own time.

Here's the game:

1. e4 e5 2. f4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nd4 4. Nf3 d6 5. d3 Bg4 6. Be2 Bxf3 7. Bxf3 Qh4+ 8.g3 Qh3 9. Nd5 Rc8 10. Be3 c6 11. Bxd4 exd4 12. Qe2 h5 13. O-O-O cxd5 14. exd5+ Kd8 15. Qe4 Nf6 16. Qxd4 b6 17. Rde1 Qd7 18. Re2 Be7 19. h3 Qb5 20. Rhe1 Rc7 21. Kb1 Ne8 22. c4 Qc5 23. Qe4 Nf6 24. Qe3 Qxe3 25. Rxe3 g6 26. Bd1 Ne8 27. Ba4 Ng7 28. Re4 Bf6 29. Bc6 Re7 30. Kc2 Nf5 31. Rg1 Nd4+ 32. Kb1 Nxc6 33. dxc6 Rhe8 34. Rge1 Kc7 35. b4 Kxc6 36. g4 hxg4 37. hxg4 Rxe4 38. dxe4 Bc3 39. b5+ Kc5 40. Rd1 Rxe4 41. Rd5+ Kxc4 42. Rxd6 Rxf4 0-1

The game is certainly not perfect and the opponent was “nice” with me. Wink

But what could happen if this double counter gambit was accepted (double because there is  a loss of time and a pawn gift if the opponent agrees).

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 Cd4 4.fxe5  d6!  5.exd6 Bxd6

Whites accepted a pawn but  blacks have some compensations.

for example if  :

A) 6.g3 Nf6 7.Nf3 Bg4  8. Be2 Bf3 9. Bf3 h5 10. d3 Ng4 and good play for the pawn.

B) 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Be2 Bf3 8.Bf3 Qh4 + 9.Kf1 and lot of  play for the pawn ...

Surely I have many more options in stock but I think this gambit is playable even at high level.


Take a look

What do you think about the name "De Noose’s Counter Gambit”?  Smiley


« Last Edit: 07/17/11 at 02:45:33 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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