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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Scandinavian Portuguese...again!? (Read 113693 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #14 - 10/04/11 at 14:46:11
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I've played this 6...Nc6 setup for Black quite a bit, with mixed results but the resulting games are usually a lot of fun.

The main "killjoy" line for White, to my knowledge, is 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2!?, discussed at this old thread:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1225852459/0#0

The aim is to push Black into an unfavourable version of the Caro-Kann setup with ...c6, ...e6, ...Be7, ...Bf5 and ...0-0, when White has a small but lasting edge provided that he/she avoids any ...Nb4 tricks.

Black has nothing better than 5...Bxe2 when White can choose between 6.Qxe2 and 6.Nxe2.  After failing to make an "0-0-0 against everything" plan work (White's queenside expansion is too rapid in some lines) I managed to find some non-compliant lines for Black over at this thread, involving ...Bd6 and retaining the option of castling on either side depending on White's response:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1234383922
Whether they are any good is still open to question, though Black seems to get a fair amount of counterplay.
  
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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #13 - 10/04/11 at 10:40:09
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brabo wrote on 10/04/11 at 09:22:47:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 (This is part of my repertoire) Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qf5 8.0-0 0-0-0 9.d5 Nb4 10.a3 (I played this already 3 times in official games and many times on the internet.) Nc2 (Nd3 is better but doesn't fully equalise either) 11.Ra2 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Qxb1 13.b4 e6 (A blunder but I believe blacks position is already beyond repair) 14.Rc2 and this was how my last official game ended in this line. Yes the opponent wasn't strong. Neverthless it is instructive.

Absolutely. Black has to be very cautious when playing this. There are several improvements though. In corr.chess 7... Qe4!? achieves equality:




...or even win:



10...Nd3!? which you mention is demonstrated in:


Edit: Hence this setup for black is playable.. The problem is that...one step aside..and you're dead!  Lips Sealed
  
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brabo
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #12 - 10/04/11 at 09:22:47
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1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 (This is part of my repertoire) Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qf5 8.0-0 0-0-0 9.d5 Nb4 10.a3 (I played this already 3 times in official games and many times on the internet.) Nc2 (Nd3 is better but doesn't fully equalise either) 11.Ra2 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Qxb1 13.b4 e6 (A blunder but I believe blacks position is already beyond repair) 14.Rc2 and this was how my last official game ended in this line. Yes the opponent wasn't strong. Neverthless it is instructive.
  
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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #11 - 10/04/11 at 07:02:24
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MNb wrote on 10/03/11 at 16:56:02:
I find 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 troublesome. Black's play seems to slow that he can permit castling Queenside. After say 6...e6 7.c4 Qf5 8.O-O Be7 9.Nc3 Nc6 I wonder if the Caro-Kann isn't just more interesting. And even castling Queenside doesn't always spice things up: 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.d5 Nb4 10.O-O O-O-O 11.dxe6 Nc2 12.Rb1 fxe6 13.Bg5 Bc5 (maybe Kb8) 14.Nh4 Nd4 15.Nxf5 Nxe2+.

Well, yes...but 6...Nc6!? (instead of 6...e6) seems more active and not 'too slow'.  Wink May I show some games that impressed me?







These games just show the possible plans for black and white. I'm not pretending black is ok here. Of course, white has more chances for a win in this setup. But I think it's far, far away from Caro-Kann..  Smiley
  
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MNb
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #10 - 10/03/11 at 16:56:02
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I find 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 troublesome. Black's play seems to slow that he can permit castling Queenside. After say 6...e6 7.c4 Qf5 8.O-O Be7 9.Nc3 Nc6 I wonder if the Caro-Kann isn't just more interesting. And even castling Queenside doesn't always spice things up: 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.d5 Nb4 10.O-O O-O-O 11.dxe6 Nc2 12.Rb1 fxe6 13.Bg5 Bc5 (maybe Kb8) 14.Nh4 Nd4 15.Nxf5 Nxe2+.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #9 - 10/03/11 at 10:49:38
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Djy wrote on 08/25/11 at 20:04:12:
Vass wrote on 06/29/11 at 08:29:55:
Hi all!
In response to Stefan Buecker's demand I publish two of my recent correspondent games played in that fascinating variation. Both were played in Bulgaria's Individual Correspondent Semi-final Championship (BG-SF152/2011).

[Event "PF/152"]
[Site "BCCF"]
[Date "2011.06.11"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Boyko Tzonev"]
[Black "Vasil Vasilev"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B01"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. f3 Bf5 5. g4 Bg6
6. c4 e6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Nc3 exd5 9. Nxd5 Nc6 10. h4
Nb6 11. Qe2 Be7 12. Nxe7 Nxd4 13. Nc6 Nxe2 14.
Nxd8 Nxg1 15. Nxb7 Nxf3 16. Kf2 Ne5 17. Bf4 f6 18.
gxf6 gxf6 19. Re1 Nbd7 20. Rh3 Bf5 21. Ra3 O-O 22.
b4 Kh8 23. b5 Rg8 24. Bg3 Ng4 25. Kg1 Rg7 26. c5
Nh6 27. c6 Ne5 28. Kf2 Be6 29. Nc5 Nhg4 30. Kg1
Bd5 31. Rd1 Nf3 32. Kg2 Nd2 33. Kh3 Nxf1 34. Rxf1
Re8 35. Rxa7 h5 36. Nd7 Re3 37. Ra8 Kh7 38. Rg1
Nf2 39. Kh2 Ng4 40. Kh3 Nf2 41. Kh2 Ng4 42. Kh3 1/2-1/2
Wink

16.-Nd4 instead of 16.-Ne5 seem to be playable too

Michiel Wind's analysis in Kaissiber 32, p. 30, confirms Vass' assessment: "16...Nd4 17.h5 Bf5 18.Bf4 Rb8 19.Bg2 Ne6 (or 19...Nxc4 20.Rh4 Nc2 21.Rg1 Rc8 22.b3) 20.Be3 0-0 21.b3 f6 22.gxf6 Rxf6 23.Kg3 +/-, and due to his bishop pair White is clearly better."
  
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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #8 - 08/31/11 at 14:02:25
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Yeah, it was an option during the game.. But finally I decided to try 16... Ne5
Edit: In fact, the first comp lines are not always the best. In correspondence chess there's always "a feeling" that the engines can't understand. For example, in this exact position the pressure of the bishops' pair can become enormous if black is not aware of it. So black has to be more precise. As we say in correspondence chess - always prolong the lines!..  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #7 - 08/25/11 at 20:04:12
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Vass wrote on 06/29/11 at 08:29:55:
Hi all!
In response to Stefan Buecker's demand I publish two of my recent correspondent games played in that fascinating variation. Both were played in Bulgaria's Individual Correspondent Semi-final Championship (BG-SF152/2011).

[Event "PF/152"]
[Site "BCCF"]
[Date "2011.06.11"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Boyko Tzonev"]
[Black "Vasil Vasilev"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B01"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. f3 Bf5 5. g4 Bg6
6. c4 e6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Nc3 exd5 9. Nxd5 Nc6 10. h4
Nb6 11. Qe2 Be7 12. Nxe7 Nxd4 13. Nc6 Nxe2 14.
Nxd8 Nxg1 15. Nxb7 Nxf3 16. Kf2 Ne5 17. Bf4 f6 18.
gxf6 gxf6 19. Re1 Nbd7 20. Rh3 Bf5 21. Ra3 O-O 22.
b4 Kh8 23. b5 Rg8 24. Bg3 Ng4 25. Kg1 Rg7 26. c5
Nh6 27. c6 Ne5 28. Kf2 Be6 29. Nc5 Nhg4 30. Kg1
Bd5 31. Rd1 Nf3 32. Kg2 Nd2 33. Kh3 Nxf1 34. Rxf1
Re8 35. Rxa7 h5 36. Nd7 Re3 37. Ra8 Kh7 38. Rg1
Nf2 39. Kh2 Ng4 40. Kh3 Nf2 41. Kh2 Ng4 42. Kh3 1/2-1/2
Wink

16.-Nd4 instead of 16.-Ne5 seem to be playable too
  

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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #6 - 07/01/11 at 23:28:36
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Hi SWJedi! It's evident you've spent a lot of time analysing these lines. I can say that from the right evaluation of this variation of Portuguese (4.f3 and 5.g4) may depend all the system. We all know this is a 'good' system for OTB games, but is it sound for correspondent ones?! It seems all that black can achieve is draw. And still I'm digging..  Undecided
Just to throw a line: 10.... Bd6 11.Ne2 ('with attack') 11... Ne7 12. h5 (12. Nxe7?! Qxe7 13. Kf2 0-0-0! 14. Bh3 Kb8! 15. h5 Bxh5 16. Bxd7 Bxf3 17. Kxf3 Qxd7 and God help the white king!) 12.... Bf5 13. Ne3 c5 14. d5 Qc7 15. Nxf5 Nxf5 16. Bh3 Ng3 17. Bxd7 Kxd7 18. Nxg3 Bxg3+ 19. Kf1 Rae8 20. Bd2 Qe5 21. Rg1 Bf4 22. Bc3 Qf5 with a very good compensation for the pawn.. I don't pretend it's full analysis - it just shows that Portuguese is alive, again..  Wink
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #5 - 07/01/11 at 13:32:47
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Looking over my old games with the gambit on FICS.org, I have to correct some earlier statements of mine: I did face 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 once, prior to knowing about the Kaissiber analysis, but White failed to find the correct follow-up (5...Bg6 6.Bb5+ Nbd7 7.Ne2 was the game continuation).  As an aside, I rather suspect that Boyko Tzonev may have been aware of Wind's analysis in Kaissiber 32.

The ending following 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 still looks considerably better for White to me, in spite of the 19...Nbd7, but Black can probably indeed hold a draw.  In a serious game if I faced an opponent in the critical line I would probably deviate with 7...Bd6, as I think White has more chances to go wrong there OTB, but I doubt that it would work in a correspondence game- in particular Black is practically forced to sac a piece for dubious compensation after 8.Qa4+ c6 9.c5 (Stefan Buecker suggested 8.Nge2 Nxd5 9.cxd5 Qh4+ in an earlier thread, which also gives an insufficient attack for a piece, in that line 8...0-0 9.h4 h6 may be just about playable but still better for White)

The other significant deviation from the inferior ending is 10...Bd6, when Wind gave 11.Ne2 "with attack"- it appears that Black's only way to escape this attack is to sac a piece on c5, e.g. 11...Nb6 12.h5 Bf5 13.Ne3 Qxg5 14.Kf2! Be6 15.c5 Bxc5 16.dxc5 Qxc5 when I don't think Black has quite enough.

In the second line (4.f3 Bf5 5.Bb5+ Nbd7 6.c4 e6 7.dxe6) I have had some experiments with 7...dxe6 8.Ne2 c6 9.Ba4, and then perhaps 9...Qa5+ 10.Bd2 Qa6 11.Nbc3 0-0-0 or 9...Qc7 10.Nbc3 Bd6 11.Bc2 0-0-0.  I don't think it's necessarily an improvement on the 7...Bxe6 line (both look a little better for White to me) but it illustrates that Black has playable alternatives in that variation.

Anyway, I agree with the consensus of the last few posts, theoretically dodgy but a lot of fun!
« Last Edit: 07/01/11 at 15:49:58 by SWJediknight »  
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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #4 - 06/30/11 at 21:26:12
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Great news, Gabriel!
Playing this is just as he says: "you are guaranteed to have a lot of fun".
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #3 - 06/30/11 at 07:20:52
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Dear Vass and Stefan,

Cannot offer any concrete analysis but thought I should point you to a fellow Aussie, GM David Smerdon, currently playing in the Commonwealth Chess Champs in SA (with GM Nigel Short and GM Gawain Jones et al). David was interviewed on a blog (here: http://commonwealthchess.blogspot.com/2011/06/day-3-of-commonwealth-dave-smerdon...) and this what he has to say about the Portugese Var:
Quote:
MER:- Any chess related book projects for you?
DS:- Possibly a book on the Portuguese variation of the Scandinavian (1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4)
I'm the strongest player in the world who plays it, not really because I am that strong but because no other grandmasters this strength would touch it. Its going to be the first honest opening book ever written, basically stating upfront that the variation is opening is rubbish, but you are guaranteed to have a lot of fun, and will conclude the game in 30 moves either way.


Maybe Stefan, you should get him to write for Kassiber ...... David is heading to Amsterdam in the near future to study fro a MA (Econs) and will be in Europe for a while yet. Check out the interview or David's own blog: http://www.davidsmerdon.com/
  

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A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #2 - 06/29/11 at 14:05:02
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Congrats to Mr Wind! I'm amazed he entered so deep in his analysis. It is evident he found all the white possibilities to make the life of the second player harder.. And, as I am experienced in all of these f3 and g4 lines, I expected something that would be of no use for me.
Anyway, I still believe that black has no more than a draw if white is consistent in looking for best moves.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #1 - 06/29/11 at 11:27:44
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Thank you very much for these fine games. You can e-mail me (redaktion@kaissiber.de) your full mail adress (the real one!), and I'll send you Kais. # 32 for free.

Your first game with Boyko Tzonev reached this position after 19.Re1:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

Michiel Wind's main line in Kais. #32 (published in 2008), p. 30, continued: 19...0-0 20.h5 Bd3 21.Rg1+ Kh8 22.b3 Bxf1 23.Rexf1 Nbd7, with the conclusion: "Weiß steht klar besser, wenn es auch nicht sicher ist, ob dies in einen Sieg umgemünzt werden kann." [translation: +/-, but maybe still a draw]. He added the sample line 24.Rd1 Rae8 25.Rd5 Re7 26.Rg3 Rg8 27.Rxg8+ Kxg8 28.Ra5 (and a few more moves).

Your solution 19...Nbd7 is an important alternative. Maybe 27.Bg2 (instead of 27.c6) came into consideration, e.g. 27...Rag8 28.Ree3 Ng4 29.Rec3 Nge5 30.Bd5 Bd3 31.Bxg8 Rxg3+ 32.Kh2 Rxg8 33.Rxd3 Nxd3 34.Rxd3 Ne5 35.Rg3.

Later in the game White could try 31.Bg2!? (instead of 31.Rd1) 31...Bc4 32.b6 cxb6 33.Nd7 Nxd7 34.cxd7 Rag8 35.Bc6 Ne5 36.Rxe5 fxe5 37.Kh2 Re7 38.Ra4 b5 39.Rxa7 Rd8 40.h5, but 40...Be6 followed by returning the exchange should be OK for a draw.

Anyway, you are surely right: not a variation which White will find in an OTB game without preparation.
  
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Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
06/29/11 at 08:29:55
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Hi all!
In response to Stefan Buecker's demand I publish two of my recent correspondent games played in that fascinating variation. Both were played in Bulgaria's Individual Correspondent Semi-final Championship (BG-SF152/2011).

[Event "PF/152"]
[Site "BCCF"]
[Date "2011.06.11"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Boyko Tzonev"]
[Black "Vasil Vasilev"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B01"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. f3 Bf5 5. g4 Bg6
6. c4 e6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Nc3 exd5 9. Nxd5 Nc6 10. h4
Nb6 11. Qe2 Be7 12. Nxe7 Nxd4 13. Nc6 Nxe2 14.
Nxd8 Nxg1 15. Nxb7 Nxf3 16. Kf2 Ne5 17. Bf4 f6 18.
gxf6 gxf6 19. Re1 Nbd7 20. Rh3 Bf5 21. Ra3 O-O 22.
b4 Kh8 23. b5 Rg8 24. Bg3 Ng4 25. Kg1 Rg7 26. c5
Nh6 27. c6 Ne5 28. Kf2 Be6 29. Nc5 Nhg4 30. Kg1
Bd5 31. Rd1 Nf3 32. Kg2 Nd2 33. Kh3 Nxf1 34. Rxf1
Re8 35. Rxa7 h5 36. Nd7 Re3 37. Ra8 Kh7 38. Rg1
Nf2 39. Kh2 Ng4 40. Kh3 Nf2 41. Kh2 Ng4 42. Kh3 1/2-1/2

[Event "PF/152"]
[Site "BCCF"]
[Date "2011.04.29"]
[White "Toshko Kirkov"]
[Black "Vasil Vasilev"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B01"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. f3 Bf5 5. Bb5+ Nbd7 6. c4 e6 7. dxe6 Bxe6 8. Nc3 c6 9. d5 cxb5 10. dxe6 fxe6 11. cxb5 Bc5 12. Qe2 O-O 13. Nh3 Qb6 14. Nf2 a6 15. bxa6 Qxa6 16. Qxa6 Rxa6 17. Nd3 Nd5 18. Nxc5 Nxc5 19. O-O Nxc3 20. bxc3 Nb3 21. Rb1 Nxc1 22. Rfxc1 Rxa2 23. Rd1 Rb8 24. Rb6 Rc2 25. h4 Rxc3 26. Rxe6 Rc4 27. Re7 Rxh4 28. Rdd7 g6 29. g3 Rh6 30. g4 b5 31. Rg7+ Kh8 32. Kg2 b4 33. Rb7 Rxb7 34. Rxb7 g5 35. Rxb4 Rf6 36. Rb5 h6 37. Rb7 Kg8 38. Kf2 Rf7 39. Rb2 Kg7
1/2-1/2

Imho, these are two of the sharpest sub-variations of Portuguese that I find difficult to play as a second player.
I admit I never had chances for a win in these games because my opponents knew how to play this variation and one of them has more than 30 experience in correspondent chess. I doubt if these were OTB games that my opponents would have managed to cope with it..  Wink
In addition, I publish another one, from the same tournament, in which my opponent wasn't fully prepared and tried to sacrifice the d4-pawn for an attack against my long castling.

[Event "PF/152"]
[Site "BCCF"]
[Date "2011.06.08"]
[White "Raicho Veselinov"]
[Black "Vasil Vasilev"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B01"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nf3 Qxd5 4. d4 Bg4 5. Be2
Nc6 6. c4 Qf5 7. O-O O-O-O 8. Nc3 Bxf3 9. Bxf3
Nxd4 10. Bd5 Nxd5 11. Qxd4 Nxc3 12. Qxc3 e6 13.
Be3 Rd3 14. Qc2 a6 15. Qa4 Be7 16. b4 Rhd8 17.
Rac1 g5 18. Rfe1 h5 19. b5 Ra3 20. Qc2 Qxc2 21.
Rxc2 g4 22. g3 Rdd3 23. h3 Rdc3 24. Rec1 Bb4 25.
Rxc3 Rxc3 26. Rxc3 Bxc3 27. a4 axb5 28. axb5 Kd7
29. f3 e5 30. fxg4 hxg4 31. hxg4 Bd4 32. Kf2 Kd6
33. Ke2 Kc5 34. Kd3 Bxe3 35. 0-1

Regretfully, I never read Michiel Wind's analysis in Kaissiber and can't comment his writings. Though I hope I can help the 'Portuguese lovers' with these games somehow.  Wink
  
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