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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Scandinavian Portuguese...again!? (Read 113957 times)
brabo
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #29 - 10/06/11 at 21:40:29
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Vass wrote on 10/05/11 at 20:49:22:
White definitely has an edge, but not enough imho..  Maybe white has some improvements, too.. But the way it goes I think black has resources..  Cool

I estimate that white can score from the 9...g5 position at least 75% which means 2 things
- black plays only for a draw or a loss
- white scores more than average (compared with more solid openings like KID or Gruenfeld where whites score lays close to 60%).

Whites edge is not neglectable if you search for further improvements in the lines you indicate:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 8.Qxe4 (I prepared and analysed this briefly once for an OTB game as the correspondence games with Be3 weren't easy to crack in the short available timeframe, I discovered with 9.0-0 a new idea and I always have been an aficionado from endgames. ) Nxe4 9.0-0 g5

A)10.Re1 (Still not clear to me if variant A or B creates the best winning chances for white. Anyway I see it as a luxury problem.) g4 11.Rxe4 gxf3 12.d5 Nb4 13.Nc3 Nd3 (An interesting alternative but I doubt that it is better.) 14.gxf3 (g3 must also give a small edge to white. As it can lead to some extreme wild positions, I prefer to stay away from it if not really necessary.) f5 15.Rh4 (Rd4 seems also good for +/=) Bg7 16.Kf1 (This looks stronger than f4 as white keeps more flexibility and the king plays a more active role) h5!? 17.Rb1 and the endgame seems very unpleasant for black.

B)10.d5 g4 11.dxc6 gxf3 12.gxf3 Rg8+ (Again same remark as for your other recommendation. I doubt that it is better as pushing the king to h1 also gives white the chance to play in some lines Rg1) 13.Kh1 Nd6 14.cxb7 (c5 is an interesting alternative which should be good enough for also +/=) Nxb7 15.Rd1 (I believe 15.Nc3 with the idea of Bf4 or 15.Be3 with the idea of Nd2 or Na3 are also valid tries to play for a win) Nd6 16.Na3 and the defense for black won't be a walk in the park.
  
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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #28 - 10/06/11 at 11:36:54
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Jupp53 wrote on 10/06/11 at 09:38:09:
Hi Vass,
liking your posts here mostly. So you have the fate of a critzism in my first reply to one of them.
Personally I can't find much sense in 8.QxQ in your line. It's exchanging queens in a slightly better position for giving up the better development in one move. It earns ?!. 8.Le3 seemed the natural response and white has a slightly better game after 8. .. Ng4 or 8. .. e6 and 9.Nc3.
It's all I want from an opening - a little space advantage, attacking prospects, good state of development. This is probable more difficult for black than other scandinavian lines.
Regards

Hi Jupp53,
I appreciate your opinion. White has many ways to prove an edge. In this case you mention (8. Be3) I've found only three correspondent games in my database. All of them finish 1/2. Two of them I published in my post (reply #13) earlier in this thread, i.e. Vera Ruiz, Heraclio (2167) - Aguilar Gómez, Pablo (2248) and Solf, Frank (2232) - Tleptsok, Ruslan Aslanovich. White played 9. 0-0 and 10. Nc3 while black retreats on f5 with the queen in both of them. Thus transposing to the position you like for white. Of course, white has an edge here. I never said black had easy play in this position. But isn't it just like that in other openings too, say KID or Gruenfeld for example. One step aside and you're lost.. The fact that in correspondence games this variation survives is speaking for itself.  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #27 - 10/06/11 at 09:38:09
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Hi Vass,
liking your posts here mostly. So you have the fate of a critzism in my first reply to one of them.
Personally I can't find much sense in 8.QxQ in your line. It's exchanging queens in a slightly better position for giving up the better development in one move. It earns ?!. 8.Le3 seemed the natural response and white has a slightly better game after 8. .. Ng4 or 8. .. e6 and 9.Nc3.
It's all I want from an opening - a little space advantage, attacking prospects, good state of development. This is probable more difficult for black than other scandinavian lines.
Regards
  

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Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #26 - 10/06/11 at 09:12:40
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I agree with both of you, guys. All in all, Portuguese is hard to manage with and gives += for white in some variations.. I played it in correspondence games three or four times only...and somehow survived.. But, if you know what fun is to play it OTB against some unprepared opponents..  Cheesy
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #25 - 10/06/11 at 08:30:33
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Or a real life game for that matter Smiley

I guess you might be just be able to analyse that rook ending enough to be confident of your ability to hold it, but the line after 10 d5? Its horrible. Suspect it wouldn't be entirely trivial if you removed whites f3 pawn.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #24 - 10/06/11 at 02:05:27
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Be honest - would you want to be Black in corr. games in the two final positions of your lines? I wouldn't.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #23 - 10/05/11 at 20:49:22
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White definitely has an edge, but not enough imho.. My improvements here can be as follows:

I'm not pretending this is an ultimate analysis. Maybe white has some improvements, too.. But the way it goes I think black has resources..  Cool
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #22 - 10/05/11 at 19:15:36
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Vass wrote on 10/05/11 at 08:34:25:
Well, 9...e6 seems to be an inaccuracy (after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 8.Qxe4 Nxe4 9.0-0). And yes, 12.Na3 is a good improvement for +=. But black can manage this with the sharp 9...g5N (not weakening the position with an early e7-e6). Don't forget we're playing Scandinavian..and have to be vikings!  Wink A posible variation next can be 10. d5 g4 11. Nfd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 Nd4 13. Nc3 Bg7 14. Rad1 O-O-O with no problems for the second player.

I believe whites play can be improved so black still has problems to solve after
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 8.Qxe4 Nxe4 9.0-0 g5N
A) 10.Re1 g4 11.Rxe4 gxf3 12.d5 Nb4 13.Nc3 fxg2 14.Bf4 +/=
or
B) 10.d5 g4 11.dxc6 (The line you mention with Nfd2 isn't fully clear either as in your endposition Rybka still shows some interesting ideas based on 15.Ne4.) gxf3 12.gxf3 Nc5 13.cxb7 Rb8 14.Nc3 Bg7 15.Rd1 +/=
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #21 - 10/05/11 at 10:24:32
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I'll look into this 4...c6 possibility later when I have more time, but my initial thoughts draw an analogy with a sideline of one of the main lines of the Göring Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bb4 6.Bg5).  There are a few differences, White has the extra tempo d2-d4 while Black, having not played ...e5, can use that tempo elsewhere but lacks the central control that is characteristic of the Göring.  (Incidentally, according to Stefan Buecker, Göring was the first known player to introduce this 3...Bg4 idea).  Those considerations suggest to me that Black probably doesn't have enough compensation here, though as with many such lines, OTB it may be a different story.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #20 - 10/05/11 at 09:49:42
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Vass wrote on 10/05/11 at 07:09:33:
I for one think that the simple 7. Nf3 (after 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. Bb5 c6 5. dxc6 Qa5 6. Nc3 Nxc6) is best and white has his +=.

Based on my experience with the Göring/Danish Gambit I think 5...Qa5+ is not such a good move. Better 5...Nxc6 and only after 6.f3 Black might consider Qa5+, but even here I have my doubts.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #19 - 10/05/11 at 08:34:25
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brabo wrote on 10/05/11 at 07:55:27:
Vass wrote on 10/04/11 at 10:40:09:
Absolutely. Black has to be very cautious when playing this. There are several improvements though. In corr.chess 7... Qe4!? achieves equality

I am not so sure about this.
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 (I also believe this is better than Qf5 as I mentioned in my old analysis of 2005) 8.Qxe4 Nxe4 9.0-0 e6 10.Re1 Nd6 11.d5 Nb4 12.Na3N with still some advantage for white.

Well, 9...e6 seems to be an inaccuracy (after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 8.Qxe4 Nxe4 9.0-0). And yes, 12.Na3 is a good improvement for +=. But black can manage this with the sharp 9...g5N (not weakening the position with an early e7-e6). Don't forget we're playing Scandinavian..and have to be vikings!  Wink A posible variation next can be 10. d5 g4 11. Nfd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 Nd4 13. Nc3 Bg7 14. Rad1 O-O-O with no problems for the second player.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #18 - 10/05/11 at 07:55:27
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Vass wrote on 10/04/11 at 10:40:09:
Absolutely. Black has to be very cautious when playing this. There are several improvements though. In corr.chess 7... Qe4!? achieves equality

I am not so sure about this.
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 (I also believe this is better than Qf5 as I mentioned in my old analysis of 2005) 8.Qxe4 Nxe4 9.0-0 e6 10.Re1 Nd6 11.d5 Nb4 12.Na3N with still some advantage for white.

Further my old analysis indicate that after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qf5 8.0-0 0-0-0 9.d5 Nb4 10.a3 Nd3 11.Be3 e5 12.Nc3 Bd6 13.Nb5N (Now with more stronger hardware and software, probably Nh4! is even stronger) a6 14.Nxd6+ Rxd6 15.Rad1 and white has the advantage.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #17 - 10/05/11 at 07:09:33
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MNb wrote on 10/05/11 at 00:47:34:
SWJediknight wrote on 10/04/11 at 14:46:11:
The main "killjoy" line for White, to my knowledge, is 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2!?

Is 4...c6 unplayable? If no, 4.Bb5+ is certainly no killjoy.
Thanks; I'll have another look at that 6...Nc6 stuff.
7...Qe4 and 9...Qf5 doesn't feel good though; I have rather conservative opinions on the value of tempi.
That De los Reyes-Cross game was quite low rated. A priori I'm not convinced that White's play was optimal, to say it friendly. And giving my opponent the chance to get a huge opening advantage actually does kill my joy.

I think 4...c6 is playable though I never had the guts to play it.  Undecided I ran through my corr.database and found that in fact this 4...c6 gambit scored very well. The only problem is that not many good corr. players played it so to see where are the main drawbacks. As long as I can figure there are two critical positions after 4...c6. The first one is after 4.dxc6 Nxc6 with Qd8-b6 intention.. And the second one is after 4.dxc6 Qa5 5.Nc3 Nxc6. Imho, I don't think black has sufficient compensation. Most of the first players push f2-f3 and go into trouble. Some examples:



I for one think that the simple 7. Nf3 (after 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. Bb5 c6 5. dxc6 Qa5 6. Nc3 Nxc6) is best and white has his +=. For example 7...Ne4 (or 7...Nd5) 8. Qd3 Nxc3 9. bxc3 Bxf3 10. gxf3 e6 (10...Rd8 is not a threat because black has not castled) 11. 0-0 and white is definitely better.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #16 - 10/05/11 at 00:47:34
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SWJediknight wrote on 10/04/11 at 14:46:11:
The main "killjoy" line for White, to my knowledge, is 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2!?

Is 4...c6 unplayable? If no, 4.Bb5+ is certainly no killjoy.
Thanks; I'll have another look at that 6...Nc6 stuff.
7...Qe4 and 9...Qf5 doesn't feel good though; I have rather conservative opinions on the value of tempi.
That De los Reyes-Cross game was quite low rated. A priori I'm not convinced that White's play was optimal, to say it friendly. And giving my opponent the chance to get a huge opening advantage actually does kill my joy.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #15 - 10/04/11 at 21:26:11
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SWJediknight wrote on 10/04/11 at 14:46:11:
I've played this 6...Nc6 setup for Black quite a bit, with mixed results but the resulting games are usually a lot of fun.

The main "killjoy" line for White, to my knowledge, is 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2!?, discussed at this old thread:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1225852459/0#0

The aim is to push Black into an unfavourable version of the Caro-Kann setup with ...c6, ...e6, ...Be7, ...Bf5 and ...0-0, when White has a small but lasting edge provided that he/she avoids any ...Nb4 tricks.

Black has nothing better than 5...Bxe2 when White can choose between 6.Qxe2 and 6.Nxe2.  After failing to make an "0-0-0 against everything" plan work (White's queenside expansion is too rapid in some lines) I managed to find some non-compliant lines for Black over at this thread, involving ...Bd6 and retaining the option of castling on either side depending on White's response:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1234383922
Whether they are any good is still open to question, though Black seems to get a fair amount of counterplay.

I've read the old threads you mention through and through. And I can say that I agree with you and the posts of the other members of the forum in these threads almost 95%. White definitely has some edge in this setup with Bb5-e2 & Qxe2 (Nxe2).. The second player has to be careful (as usual in Scandinavian defence).. And I've seen one of my heroes, Evgeny Ermenkov defending the black side (backing me) in one analysis after a game I played in this variation as a second player in an open tournament. ...And then..I was amazed how little I knew about the good playing in this c6-e6 against d4-c4 pawn formation setup..  Cheesy
  
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