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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Scandinavian Portuguese...again!? (Read 121069 times)
Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #74 - 04/24/14 at 14:17:50
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CaptainFuture wrote on 04/24/14 at 11:08:57:
Hello Vass,
your analysis is interesting but the white player can avoid your given variations with 10.Be2 Nc6 (if Qe7 then Kf2!) 11.Bxh5 and that is the same as after 9...Nc6 10.Be2 dxc4 11.Bxh5
Kind regards,
Robert


Agree.  Wink
What I meant was that the position is sharp and therefore can be played OTB, though objectively white has to win with best play.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #73 - 04/24/14 at 11:08:57
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Hello Vass,
your analysis is interesting but the white player can avoid your given variations with 10.Be2 Nc6 (if Qe7 then Kf2!) 11.Bxh5 and that is the same as after 9...Nc6 10.Be2 dxc4 11.Bxh5
Kind regards,
Robert
  
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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #72 - 03/09/14 at 18:53:23
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And what always amazed me in this opening is the stamina, even in the lines we discard easily. Recently, I looked at the following lines and found them pretty interesting to try OTB:


Many years ago I rejected 8...Nh5 because of 9.f4 with the f4-f5 and Qd1xh5 idea just stopping there. Now...I'm not sure! What I'm sure of, is if I play this above line OTB as a second player, I'll be the only one familiar with what is going over the board. Still, I think it will be too much to handle..  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #71 - 03/09/14 at 17:38:53
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Hi, Mr Smerdon!
A long time friend of mine (we live in the same city and both play Scandinavian Portuguese OTB) struggled as a second player in this correspondence chess game:



Probably, you have to choose your move 10....Nb6!? instead of 10...0-0 in this line.  Undecided
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #70 - 03/09/14 at 15:32:55
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Hi guys. Sorry for the long delay between posts - I've taken a break from the book for a while. But I come bearing gifts!

Firstly, GabrielGale's analysis was robust enough to put me off that variation. But I've done some work on 7...Nfd7 8.Nc3 Bb4!? which, I believe, gives Black very good chances of sufficient compensation (I know that sounds like a dodgy sentence, but we are talking about the Portuguese, after all!). I've attached some lines on it - criticisms are very welcome!

Secondly, and assuming the reliability of 8...Bb4, I've had more of a problem dealing with the move order 7.Nc3, where, due to the check on a4, ...Bb4 is not an option. Black's best appear to be 7...c5 and 7...Bd6. The latter appears most reliable, although the crazy sacrificial line after 8.Nge2! exd5 9.g5 dxc4!? probably works out in White's favour with best play. More work to be done here!

In reply to tipau's comments:

1) I will argue in the book that 3.Nf3 Bg4 is very playable. Indeed, the line you mention with 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.h3 Bh5 6.Nc3 a6 7.Be2 is, in my opinion, fundamentally equal in the end. But Black has almost no winning chances, which I agree is a problem - but perhaps not enough to prevent me from publishing.

2) This is a very tricky line to meet, but Black can significantly improve with 10...h5!

3) This is a very annoying line indeed. I've done a lot of work on 4...c6, although fundamentally it's unsound, as you say. The main line you give after 4...Nbd7 5.Be2 is indeed more comfortable for White; however, again, I think Black is in principle fine with best play.

I'm very impressed that you mention here the two most annoying lines for Black! Neither is a refutation, but both are good choices over-the-board. However, if a refutation does exist, it's probably in this c4-g4 system I referred to above.

Looking forward to your comments!

Dave

  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #69 - 11/10/13 at 23:03:56
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Great new! I loved playing the Portugeese in my teen years and will certainly be picking up a copy of this book when it's finished.

A few contributing factors to me giving up the line were the following...

1) I'm not sure it's possible to get (sound) unique play after 3.Nf3:



not really convinced by either 5...a6 6.Ba4 or 5...Bh5 6.Nc3...


2) I had a crushing defeat by a young Romain Edouard in the following line:




3. White can quite easily kill the fun with 4.Bb5 Nbd7 5.Be2:

  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #68 - 11/01/13 at 02:36:16
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My apologies for the presumption but I find it easier to see it on the replay board and so have incorporated MNb's suggestion: MNb wrote on 10/31/13 at 22:36:29:
Perhaps 14.Kf2 O-O 15.b4 cxb4 16.a3 bxa3 17.h6 g67 18.c5 Bc7 19.Rxa3 f6 (iso b5) to create counterchances against the white king. A forcing line is 20.Qb3+ Kh8 21.Qxb7 fxg5 22.Nxf5 Nxf5 23.Bxg5 Qxg5 24.Qxc7 Nf6 15.Qf4 Qxf4 16.Nxf4 Nxd4 and Black is not busted yet.
Or Black should follow your main line with 7...Nh5. At the end after 17.Rd1 Rxd1 18.Qxd1 h6 19.h3 hxg5 20.fxg5 Rh4 Black has some chances against White's shaky king.

  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #67 - 10/31/13 at 22:36:29
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Perhaps 14.Kf2 O-O 15.b4 cxb4 16.a3 bxa3 17.h6 g67 18.c5 Bc7 19.Rxa3 f6 (iso b5) to create counterchances against the white king. A forcing line is 20.Qb3+ Kh8 21.Qxb7 fxg5 22.Nxf5 Nxf5 23.Bxg5 Qxg5 24.Qxc7 Nf6 15.Qf4 Qxf4 16.Nxf4 Nxd4 and Black is not busted yet.
Or Black should follow your main line with 7...Nh5. At the end after 17.Rd1 Rxd1 18.Qxd1 h6 19.h3 hxg5 20.fxg5 Rh4 Black has some chances against White's shaky king.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #66 - 10/31/13 at 21:30:02
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What put me off of this 10...Bd6 & 11...Ne7 line back then...was 14.Kf2! (in your main line):



I took my old (pgn) notes, ran my Houdini 3 in 'tactical mode' and it confirmed my then evaluation.. Which is in between +/- and +-  Embarrassed
Please, correct me if I'm wrong! (Too much correspondence chess games await my attention, so I can't run a serious IDeA analysis right now).
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #65 - 10/31/13 at 15:46:53
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Hm, that is indeed a critical line. Fortunately, it's not played very often over-the-board, but I agree that in correspondence in particular, the early g4/c4 is a very good attempt at a refutation.

I was impressed by your handling of the long and wild line that leads to the endgame. I brushed that line aside, thinking that White must be much better with the bishops, but you held it well. However, I am more interested in Black's aggressive options, even if the compensation is not completely sufficient.

Attached are some lines for thought. What do you think?

  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #64 - 10/31/13 at 09:24:45
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #63 - 10/30/13 at 19:50:38
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"For the Portuguese/Icelandic afficionados, please let me know the holes in your analysis that have put you off the opening, and I'll try to make sure they are addressed in the book (which I'm designing to be a complete repertoire to 1.e4). "

Good news ! Do you plan to write a book on the Portuguese ? Could we have more informations about it ? I'm very interested in it and I'm sure not to be the only one  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #62 - 10/30/13 at 12:32:35
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Thanks Vass for sharing. Although I am yet to play the Gambit, I have been learning the Scandinavian but thus far only the ...Qa5 from the Wahls, Muller and Lnagrock book. But I am tempted to give ...Nf6 a go and then it is a short hop and skip to the Gambit.

Your files will be useful for me to consider the lines.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #61 - 10/30/13 at 10:36:55
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Hi guys!

Thanks to brabo for letting me know about this thread. Hopefully I'll keep hopping back in here to share my analysis with you all (so that you can rip it apart and shatter my ego).

But firstly, yes, the book is primarily designed as a fun read. I won't try to hide anything, and I'll address every supposed 'refutation' I've come across (from my research to date, there are many!). I haven't found any that genuinely refute the gambit, though deep down I'm sure my beloved Portuguese is unsound. If you can excuse a morbid metaphor, the refutation of the Portuguese is a bit like death: You know it's coming one day, but you just don't know when or how...

For the Portuguese/Icelandic afficionados, please let me know the holes in your analysis that have put you off the opening, and I'll try to make sure they are addressed in the book (which I'm designing to be a complete repertoire to 1.e4).

One criticism I have to address now is that White can 'take the fun' out of our true love. Well, yes, if White knows his or her theory really well, unfortunately that's true. But this is the same for any black opening; Najdorf and Dragon players have to deal with 3.Bb5+ or 2.c3, for example, and Marshall Gambit devotees have to deal with the Four Knights' Scotch. My aim in the book will be to ensure that if White does snuff out the coffeehouse tactics, Black can at least reach equality - which I'm counting as a theoretical win.

Having said that, when White does decline the gambit with quieter systems (say 4.Be2) and Black has a choice of ways to get equality, I'm always advocating the most aggressive options to keep the spirit of the line. I'm talking about opposite castling on most occasions, weird and unusual pawn structures, and launching highly nonclassical blitzkriegs out of nowhere. We're going to maximise the chances of getting the sort of crazy positions we want, although unfortunately if the other guy really knows his stuff, it won't be possible 100% of the time.

Looking forward to your feedback!

Dave

PS Many thanks for the correspondence games, Vass!!
  
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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #60 - 10/30/13 at 10:00:30
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Just to help Mr Smerdon...
I've just made a Scandinavian Portuguese Correspondence Chess database (in cbv) including all the sources I have:
https://mega.co.nz/#!pgl1QSKY!dwSIjE2VjFMBlfaMheMBTHBjqa4ZRWLIZ95rG4OdKfU
...as well as a ctg-book out of the games in this database (in a rar file):
https://mega.co.nz/#!EotHAILS!aW7bnD4RZjlkZvyjtamElH2ZRBhyr_mQQbjpXIwJSOs
Feel free to use it!  Wink
  
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