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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Scandinavian Portuguese...again!? (Read 112770 times)
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #134 - 12/23/19 at 13:26:26
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tp2205 wrote on 12/23/19 at 06:56:16:
MNb wrote on 12/22/19 at 16:30:24:
Some lines I don't like as Black: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 Bg6 6.c4 e6 7.Nc3 (or 7.g5 first) exd5 8.g5
a) 8...Ng8 9.Qe2+ Ne7/Be7 10.cxd5.
b) 8...Nfd7 9.Nxd5 Nc6 10.h4 Nb6 11.Qe2+ Be7 12.Nxe7 Nxd4 13.Nc6+ Nxe2 14.Nxd8 Nxg1 (compare the Boyko game given by Vass on page 1 or 2) 15.Rxg1 and White is playing for a win without any risk thanks to the two bishops;
c) 8...Nh5 9.f4 Nc6 10.f5 Bxf5 11.cxd5 Nb4 12.Qxh5 Nc2+ 13.Kf2 Nxa1 14.Bb5+ Bd7 Rodriguez-Ruiz, corr 2016, 15.Qe2+ B e7 16.Bf4 O-O 17.Nf3.

Any thoughts?

No deep insights unfortunately.
Line a+b I completely agree but facing line c over the board after 17...f6 may not be so easy. Both 18. g6 hxg6 19.Bd3 and 18.Bxc7 Qxc7 19.Qxe7 Rf7 20.d6 Qxc3 21.bxc3 Rxe7 22.gxf6 gxf6 23.Bc4+ seem to give White an edge (or more). But I would probably go astray somewhere as White. So as the occasional surprise weapon (e.g. in rapid) it may still be ok.



Yes, 17...f6 seems like a good practical chance OTB.

But I think White can improve on this line with 15. Bd3 (instead of 15. Qe2+). E.g. 15...g6 16. Qh4 and it seems like Black is having a tough time justifying the piece sac.

Also, on move 10, White has Smeardon's recommendation of 10. Be2, although this line might allow Black to muddy the waters a bit more, at least OTB.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #133 - 12/23/19 at 06:56:16
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MNb wrote on 12/22/19 at 16:30:24:
Some lines I don't like as Black: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 Bg6 6.c4 e6 7.Nc3 (or 7.g5 first) exd5 8.g5
a) 8...Ng8 9.Qe2+ Ne7/Be7 10.cxd5.
b) 8...Nfd7 9.Nxd5 Nc6 10.h4 Nb6 11.Qe2+ Be7 12.Nxe7 Nxd4 13.Nc6+ Nxe2 14.Nxd8 Nxg1 (compare the Boyko game given by Vass on page 1 or 2) 15.Rxg1 and White is playing for a win without any risk thanks to the two bishops;
c) 8...Nh5 9.f4 Nc6 10.f5 Bxf5 11.cxd5 Nb4 12.Qxh5 Nc2+ 13.Kf2 Nxa1 14.Bb5+ Bd7 Rodriguez-Ruiz, corr 2016, 15.Qe2+ B e7 16.Bf4 O-O 17.Nf3.

Any thoughts?

No deep insights unfortunately.
Line a+b I completely agree but facing line c over the board after 17...f6 may not be so easy. Both 18. g6 hxg6 19.Bd3 and 18.Bxc7 Qxc7 19.Qxe7 Rf7 20.d6 Qxc3 21.bxc3 Rxe7 22.gxf6 gxf6 23.Bc4+ seem to give White an edge (or more). But I would probably go astray somewhere as White. So as the occasional surprise weapon (e.g. in rapid) it may still be ok.


  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #132 - 12/22/19 at 16:30:24
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Some lines I don't like as Black: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 Bg6 6.c4 e6 7.Nc3 (or 7.g5 first) exd5 8.g5
a) 8...Ng8 9.Qe2+ Ne7/Be7 10.cxd5.
b) 8...Nfd7 9.Nxd5 Nc6 10.h4 Nb6 11.Qe2+ Be7 12.Nxe7 Nxd4 13.Nc6+ Nxe2 14.Nxd8 Nxg1 (compare the Boyko game given by Vass on page 1 or 2) 15.Rxg1 and White is playing for a win without any risk thanks to the two bishops;
c) 8...Nh5 9.f4 Nc6 10.f5 Bxf5 11.cxd5 Nb4 12.Qxh5 Nc2+ 13.Kf2 Nxa1 14.Bb5+ Bd7 Rodriguez-Ruiz, corr 2016, 15.Qe2+ B e7 16.Bf4 O-O 17.Nf3.

Any thoughts?
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #131 - 01/06/16 at 10:54:36
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Thanks for the reply, smurfo!

I guess you're right, if we dig deep we will find a white advantage in some places where it is not really expected.
Of course it is annoying that it happens in lines such as the Wuss, where white does not deserve to be better  Wink

So the most practical approach might be to play the direct attacking moves (like Rg8 in the line above), and do some grovelling in the unlikely case white digs something up.
If we play too cautiously, then White's better central control will be the main factor in the position.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #130 - 01/06/16 at 02:24:50
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Yes, you could be right. I think if we do deeper into these lines, it's probably going to show that White's position is more pleasant with accurate play. But in all my practice, I've never encountered the position after move ten! My gut tells me that this line is not a serious attempt at a bust, and generally when White plays the Wuss, they're not coming armed with serious preparation. This is not a very scientific answer, I admit Smiley
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #129 - 12/27/15 at 00:52:31
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Thanks for replying Smurfo, I thought your Kb8 suggestion might be with the idea of Rhe8 in one go after d5 alright, and not losing a tempo by playing to g8 first but I am still not convinced.

In the line you suggest after 10..Kb8 11.d5 exd5 12cxd5 Nb4 13.Bg5 Bd6 14.Rd4 Rhe8 15.Qc4 Qg6  why not 16Bxf6! gxf6 (if 16...Qxf6 17Ne4 wins the exchange)  and 17.Nb5 still looks annoying. If black has to play 17...Na6 here, his position doesnt look much fun

Maybe 10...Rg8 is ok as if white doesnt play d5 black has the standard attack with g5 without having wasted a move on kb8 and if white does play 11.d5 exd5 12.cxd5 Nb4 13.Bg5 Bd6 14.Rd4 maybe now 14..Kb8!? is ok
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #128 - 12/26/15 at 22:11:18
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Hi all. My point is that I wanted to meet the d5 plan with 14.Rd4 Rh(or g!)e8. So I would rather get the move Kb8 in 'for free', as it were. And it makes a difference, because with 10...Rh8 (i.e. king still on c8), White has 15.Qc4 threatening Nb5. Then for example 15...Nc2 16.Bxf6! gf 17.Rh4 is winning for White, while with Black's king already on b8, Black can play ...Qg6 here and with Nb5 not a real threat, Black has a playable position.

I'm not saying this is the whole story (or even that I know the whole story!), but I hope this line demonstrates why Kb8 can be useful against a d5 plan.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #127 - 12/07/15 at 22:25:57
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In my opinion 10. ... Rg8 is better than 10. ... Kb8, of which I don't see the purpose. The king is slightly better there, but it does nothing to deter the d5-plan.

So I also don't get it.
Maybe the author could enlighten us?  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #126 - 12/07/15 at 20:22:21
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I have a specific question about GM Smerdons book. I face the Wuss fairly regularly and in his notes to game 8 the author suggests 10..Kb8 as an improvement instead of 10..Rg8 saying that it avoids 11.d5 exd5 12cxd5 Nb4 13Bg5! Bd6 14.Rd4 however I dont see how it does. White can play this way anyway and by inserting 10...Kb8 it seems like black is giving white extra options eg. 11Bg5. Am I missing something?
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #125 - 11/14/15 at 18:12:08
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Bibs wrote on 11/14/15 at 14:32:34:
If I buy via the app (I have dozens upon dozens), is it possible to get the Cbv version on top, do you know?

B

I am pretty sure you can get it that way, but I think I have seen it mentioned somewhere (or maybe in an email conversation) that it is easier to buy via the home page. It kinda makes sense too.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #124 - 11/14/15 at 17:57:23
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I bought the book mainly for nostalgic reasons b/c this opening was my main choice from 2005-2009 (rating progress: beginner to 2000+ uscf).  Regardless of an opening's merit, it is a special event when the world's preeminent practitioner publishes a treatise.  Morozevich and Tiger Hillarp Persson  come to mind as "maverick" practitioners who published well-received works notwithstanding the dubious reputations of their subject matter-- Chigorin QGD and Modern.

I agree the book feels huge and bulky due to the white space and single-column format.  Normally I prefer white space to write pencil notes, but not when the book could substitute for a piece of masonry.  I feel the mass of the book is also caused by the many alternative options for Black that enhance the opening's replay value, which is a key consideration due to lack of real strategic flexibility for Black.  (That is the price of defining the central pawn structure on move 1.)  For those who prefer e-books, obviously the mass of the physical book is irrelevant.

Smerdon's prose is snappy and entertaining.  Basically, it is hard to imagine a better book about the subject matter.  Yes, you get active pieces, but limited pawn play and virtually no strategic flexibility.  Resorting to Rg8 and g5 stuff never felt very convincing to me when White had pawns abreast at d4 and c4.  I always felt like I was playing for "cheapo" tactics from an optically worse position, which I feel is the mindset needed to play stuff like these Scandinavian gambits (or the Chigorin or Tiger's Modern, for that matter).  The standard for chess opening books is ridiculous nowadays: the equivalent of Oxford professors write technical works of 300+ pages from scratch for a hobbyist audience at pulp fiction prices.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #123 - 11/14/15 at 14:32:34
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Sorry, me again. Apologies for being maybe a bit stupid here.
If I buy via the app (I have dozens upon dozens), is it possible to get the Cbv version on top, do you know?

Thanks, and sorry for being probably a bit thick on this.
B
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #122 - 11/14/15 at 14:08:24
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You have to purchase (and pay  Wink) it seperately - then you get it in four formats. It´s not part of the hard copy  Sad
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #121 - 11/14/15 at 13:08:17
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I didn't know that at all. That would be really handy.
I bought hard copy. How to get e-version of it?
Thanks in advance for advising,
B
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #120 - 11/14/15 at 12:43:39
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I don't have an opinion on the quality of the chess content yet (although the lines look like a lot of fun and I'm going to try them out at least), but I want to mention here that I love what Everyman is currently doing with their new ebooks: instead of having to choose, you get it in four formats -- Kindle, ePub, CBV and PGN.

So I can read the book on my Kindle, and import the PGN into my database so I can work with it there (play through the lines, add my own, whatever I want).

I think this is completely awesome.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #119 - 11/14/15 at 05:29:05
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Bump!
Further reactions to this book...?
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #118 - 10/10/15 at 20:07:49
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smurfo wrote on 10/01/15 at 13:56:02:
Hi guys. Very interesting to hear your reactions to the book!

As I mention in it, I suspect the correspondence refutation is objectively just that: a refutation. However, I couldn't quite find the win for White in analysis, and no-one's ever played it against me. When I ran my 'laboratory experiments' getting club players to play blitz matches against each other in this line, Black always came out on top; as mentioned, it's hard for White to keep the position together after making so many pawn moves.

As for Seeley's good comment, the enterprising and courageous player can deal with the 'boring' lines by playing 'The Elbow' against 3.d4 and meeting 3.Bb5+ with 3...Bd7 followed by ...c6, as mentioned above. I think against 2500+ GMs I would probably not do this and just take boring equality, but don't hold that against me Smiley


I probably wont be able to contribute to the discussion around the theory for quite a while given my being a weak player.

Like the rest of the series so far, the layout of the book (I've got Houska's Caro Kann book and Williams' on the Dutch) has been in my opinion very user friendly. David in his introduction  provides a steer for noobs like myself on how we can make best use of it. Each chapter is well written and provides a useful explanation of the themes of the line being looked at and follows it up with a theory section.

I'm only just starting the second chapter, but i'm really looking forward to playing this opening. I find the authors words quite encouraging.


  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #117 - 10/10/15 at 10:00:43
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This thread dropped to the end for no apparent reason, I will have to try and sort this problem out sometime! Angry
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #116 - 10/01/15 at 13:56:02
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Hi guys. Very interesting to hear your reactions to the book!

As I mention in it, I suspect the correspondence refutation is objectively just that: a refutation. However, I couldn't quite find the win for White in analysis, and no-one's ever played it against me. When I ran my 'laboratory experiments' getting club players to play blitz matches against each other in this line, Black always came out on top; as mentioned, it's hard for White to keep the position together after making so many pawn moves.

As for Seeley's good comment, the enterprising and courageous player can deal with the 'boring' lines by playing 'The Elbow' against 3.d4 and meeting 3.Bb5+ with 3...Bd7 followed by ...c6, as mentioned above. I think against 2500+ GMs I would probably not do this and just take boring equality, but don't hold that against me Smiley
« Last Edit: 10/10/15 at 09:59:13 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #115 - 09/25/15 at 15:50:56
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Not that it counts for much, but I'd find it hard to believe even on general terms that the opening will be refuted by only moving pawns various times and developing the queen first. That's exactly what the Portugese player is hoping for - that you take all their pawns and forget to develop your pieces so they can mate you.

The most testing responses (with f3/g4 or h3/g4, depending on whether you played 3.d4 or 3.Nf3) do play against Black's light-squared bishop, but also allow for reasonably fast development.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #114 - 09/24/15 at 22:45:11
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Menake Halonot wrote on 09/24/15 at 16:46:34:
Templare2 wrote on 09/23/15 at 22:12:36:
In "The Correspendence refutation" Smerdon says 7 Qb3?! , c5.

But ( instead of 8 Qxb7) 8. h4 is better and I think that Black is struggling to prove any compensation.


after 8...exd5 it seems unclear, and I don't think "Black is struggling to prove any compensation."
A possible line:



In this line 11 Bf4 might be more testing.
But what exactly is wrong with just answering 8 h4 with 8...h6?

In my view Smerdon's book is everything you could hope for about this admittedly rather dodgy opening. He doesn't hide the problems and he provides reasoned arguments as well as variations where he thinks there is compensation that other sources (and in some cases the engines) have overlooked.

All in all, it seems to me to be a very practical book, written for humans, or more exactly humans who want to play that type of chess.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #113 - 09/24/15 at 16:46:34
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Templare2 wrote on 09/23/15 at 22:12:36:
In "The Correspendence refutation" Smerdon says 7 Qb3?! , c5.

But ( instead of 8 Qxb7) 8. h4 is better and I think that Black is struggling to prove any compensation.


after 8...exd5 it seems unclear, and I don't think "Black is struggling to prove any compensation."
A possible line:

  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #112 - 09/23/15 at 22:12:36
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In "The Correspendence refutation" Smerdon says 7 Qb3?! , c5.

But ( instead of 8 Qxb7) 8. h4 is better and I think that Black is struggling to prove any compensation.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #111 - 09/21/15 at 21:28:06
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Thanks for that helpful review, tipau. I thought about buying this book and it was the sort of lines you concentrate on that caused me to hesitate.

tipau wrote on 09/20/15 at 12:36:45:
My comments above perhaps don't do it full justice, as I look at the boring options and not cool stuff

Actually, I think you've focused on exactly the right places: the 'boring options' are precisely where a repertoire like this is liable to fall down. I'd suppose that most players who are willing to adopt lines like these would be quite happy to end up in some sort of unclear mess, but if White has a simple, solid, unco-operative way of spoiling Black's fun, then the whole repertoire becomes much less appealing.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #110 - 09/20/15 at 12:36:45
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I have both paper and kindle versions - I got inpatient waiting for the postman and bought an electronic version for a long train ride Smiley

I have a lot of thoughts on the book, so this post might be lengthy Wink I guess I'm not a typical reader as I love the Portugeese gambit like no other opening - it makes me nostalgic for my teenage years when I played over 100 games a year and answered 1.e4 this way almost exclusively.

Firstly, it's clear that GM Smerdon loves the opening just as much as me! This comes across in the book very well and the enthusiasm makes me want to play it again even more. The book is packed full of fresh and interesting ideas in almost every variation, especially in the more funky lines were White accepts any offered material. Perhaps it's unfair, but I was basically expecting that. The lack of attention to the opening from theory meant that there were (and still are I'm sure) lots of hidden treasures to be found. What I was initially most interested in was how the most annoying 'kill-joy' lines were handled. In particular, after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6:

A) 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2
B) 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.h3 Bh5 6.Nc3
C) 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Be2

For me, the decision whether to pick this line back up entirely depends on being happy against such lines.

Against lines A and B I think it's clear that White is for choice and has a pull. In both cases GM Smerdon emphasises that
1) += is still a draw with best play and;
2) += doesn't mean that Black can't outplay White and later win.
These points are true (and examples of play are given to help Black players get a feel for how to defend and spot typical errors) but what's also true is that if I got into those lines then I'd wish I'd played something else  Grin

In line A I really liked the coverage of the alternative 4...c6!? and also the nickname 'The Elbow'. In fact there are quite a few fun names being handed out to different lines Grin



I did investigate this line years ago but I must admit that I did it with my mind already made up against it  Smiley Having looked in more detail with GM Smerdon's analysis it's looks a lot more interesting than I remember!

Line B (3.Nf3) is less of a concern to me. I'd rather transpose to another Scandinavian line than go 3...Bg4 as I have some experience in other lines:




In Line C with 3.Bb5+ GM Smerdon likes 3...Nbd7!? I agree that Black is OK there, although 3...Bd7 will probably remain my preference and he analyses a nice gambit idea there. I guess a player's preference depends on whether he prefers to face 3...Bd7 4.Be2 or 3...Nbd7 4.Nf3 Nxd5 5.d4 as in both cases Black is playing for equality:




In most lines there are lots of alternative approaches and ideas for Black. It's clear GM Smerdon has made a big effort to be as thorough as possible. Just one example:




The only exception to this thorough approach that I've seen so far is with 2.Nc3. Here the most ambitious approach 2...d4!? 3.Nce2 e5 is recommended but I think that a lot of White's most interesting ideas aren't mentioned:




Overall I really, really like this book  Grin My comments above perhaps don't do it full justice, as I look at the boring options and not cool stuff like 3.d4 Bg4 4.f3 Bf5 5.c4 e6 6.dxe6 Nc6! and 5.Bb5+ Nbd7 6.c4 (both are more common than 4.Bb5+ in practice) or more normal lines like 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 and 4.Nf3. Those are all covered really well IMO and give nice ideas that you have very good chances to use directly in your games.

Thanks smurfo  Grin
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #109 - 09/09/15 at 22:05:21
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Got my copy. Havent had time to read it though from a quick glance i'm liking the lay out.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #108 - 09/07/15 at 19:29:18
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Ordered mine too  Wink
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #107 - 09/07/15 at 09:31:33
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Ordered it today via Niggemann. Hope it arrives on my birthday (11-9)

Cheesy
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #106 - 09/06/15 at 22:13:10
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Looks really good. The sort of book i was hoping for. Cant wait to get my hands on a copy. Smiley
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #105 - 09/06/15 at 20:04:11
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I hope An Open Letter to Scandinavia and Portugal won't follow too soon   Smiley
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #104 - 09/06/15 at 19:44:25
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #103 - 08/14/15 at 14:18:41
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smurfo wrote on 08/14/15 at 13:40:09:
Believe it or not, I hadn't seen this yet  Wink Thanks for letting me know! Book has gone to the printers!!

No problem - congrats on finishing up man, always a slog! If Smerdon's Scandi has gone to the printers, an excerpt is imminent!

Grin
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #102 - 08/14/15 at 13:40:09
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TonyRo wrote on 07/12/15 at 16:56:27:
Artwork is up! Tell you what, having your name in the title is pretty baller:

https://www.everymanchess.com/openings-books/smerdons-scandinavian

Grin


Believe it or not, I hadn't seen this yet  Wink Thanks for letting me know! Book has gone to the printers!!
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #101 - 07/13/15 at 19:12:23
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TonyRo wrote on 07/12/15 at 16:56:27:
Artwork is up! Tell you what, having your name in the title is pretty baller:

https://www.everymanchess.com/openings-books/smerdons-scandinavian

Grin



I think you started that trend, Killer  Wink
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #100 - 07/12/15 at 16:56:27
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Artwork is up! Tell you what, having your name in the title is pretty baller:

https://www.everymanchess.com/openings-books/smerdons-scandinavian

Grin
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #99 - 07/03/15 at 22:44:16
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Everyman have listed 'smerdon's Scandanavian' for a September release (in Europe, October for US). No Artwork yet though...
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #98 - 06/02/15 at 08:22:54
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Hi all, and sorry for the late reply. I've neglected to check the forum in recent months. RoleyPoley is right: the manuscript was submitted a while ago, but the publishers have told me that they don't know yet when it will be released (something about a backlog of projects). So the timeline is out of my hands for now. I'll be sure to write an update when I know more!

Cheers,
David
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #97 - 05/21/15 at 18:37:24
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RoleyPoley wrote on 05/15/15 at 18:46:21:
tipau wrote on 05/14/15 at 16:10:32:
I'm also interested if there's any new news on this project?

I've been considering using this again, although probably more of a surprise weapon this time Smiley


I saw a comment on Twitter dated March where someone was asking Smurfo if there was a pre-order available, to which he replied he would ask the publisher. I assume that this was in regards to his book on the Portuguese and that he has submitted a completed manuscript.... However, if that is the case i am a little surprised that he appears not to have mentioned it on his blog.



I asked David on twitter if there was a release date yet, to which he has said not yet. I expect we will here more from him when there is one. Fingers crossed.  Smiley
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #96 - 05/15/15 at 18:46:21
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tipau wrote on 05/14/15 at 16:10:32:
I'm also interested if there's any new news on this project?

I've been considering using this again, although probably more of a surprise weapon this time Smiley


I saw a comment on Twitter dated March where someone was asking Smurfo if there was a pre-order available, to which he replied he would ask the publisher. I assume that this was in regards to his book on the Portuguese and that he has submitted a completed manuscript.... However, if that is the case i am a little surprised that he appears not to have mentioned it on his blog.

  

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Victor Bologan.
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #95 - 05/14/15 at 16:10:32
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I'm also interested if there's any new news on this project?

I've been considering using this again, although probably more of a surprise weapon this time Smiley
  

FIDE: ~2100
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #94 - 12/17/14 at 19:21:16
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smurfo wrote on 09/16/14 at 19:52:54:
The draft should be completed by the end of the year, so unfortunately it won't hit the shelves til early 2015. It's turning into a much bigger challenge than I anticipated, especially as I've made it a repertoire book against 1.e4.




Hi Smurfo,

How's the manuscript coming along? Can you provide any details as to which lines you will be covering?

Best wishes,

RP.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #93 - 10/13/14 at 14:43:23
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smurfo wrote on 10/13/14 at 13:40:01:
However, I don't know of any published analysis on this line at all, to date. Thanks for letting me know, Stefan. I'd be very interested in seeing Wind's analysis, if you have a copy of the article I can check out. The Wind Refutation has a nice ring to it, after all  Smiley 

OK, I'll send you the whole 5-page article, which also covers 3.c4 e6 on two pages. Please send me an e-mail (to redaktion@kaissiber.de), and I'll send jpg scans. The scans come with the condition to quote the source properly. The Gambit 3.c4 e6, by the way, is named after Rudolf Palme in Kaissiber, the Austrian master who introduced the move in 1955. I am aware that some prefer to call it differently. I'd be interested to hear about an older Icelandic source for 3...e6.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #92 - 10/13/14 at 13:41:46
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TalJechin wrote on 10/13/14 at 11:54:53:
Will you be dealing with the Kiel/Marshall variation (3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4) and the old g6-lines or is the latter completely dead after the keymove c4-c5, ?


No. I will be focussing exclusively on 3...Bg4. I wouldn't say these old lines are completely dead, but , well, I always enjoy playing c4-c5 with white when I'm faced with it!
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #91 - 10/13/14 at 13:40:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/12/14 at 21:51:42:
The line was analyzed and recommended in 2008 by Michiel Wind, see Kaissiber #32, pp. 29-31. His idea 6...e6 7.Nc3! seems indeed critical. You call it "Correspondence Refutation", but I am not aware of older correspondence games.


Naming the variations in the book is surprisingly turning out to be one of the trickiest parts!

I went with the temporary name "Correspondence Refutation" because, contrary to every other variation, the majority of games in this one are correspondence games. The first with g4 and c4 was played in 1997: Teumer-Ruch. The first game with 7.Nc3! was Gazik-Krivoshey, 1998. A strong correspondence game with 7.Nc3! was Ottesen-Corbat, 2007.

However, I don't know of any published analysis on this line at all, to date. Thanks for letting me know, Stefan. I'd be very interested in seeing Wind's analysis, if you have a copy of the article I can check out. The Wind Refutation has a nice ring to it, after all  Smiley 
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #90 - 10/13/14 at 11:54:53
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smurfo wrote on 10/12/14 at 13:47:21:
RoleyPoley wrote on 09/19/14 at 21:53:26:
Just one more thing!  Wink

Whats the balance of the book with regards to verbal explanation and analysis?

I'm only around 130ecf and prefer books like Ward's books on the Dragon and Williams' book on the French (and virtually anything by Wells) for their explanations. Not a deal breaker obviously, just curious...especially as there is so little out there on this opening and it's reputation Smiley


A lot of verbal explanation, as the book will primarily be of interest to players below master level, I'd guess.

Having said that, I've spent a LOT of time on the analysis, as my ultimate goal is to be able to propose a repertoire in which every line for Black is at least 'playable'. This has been quite a challenge! I'm still trying to work out the best way to handle the 'Correspondence Refutation' with 4.f3 Bf5 5.g5 Bg6 6.c4 (discussed in depth in this thread). More significantly, I've had to drop the Icelandic Gambit as my main recommendation after 3.c4, although I still cover it in detail, but fortunately there are some surprising gambit lines after 3.c4 c6 4.d4 that are both sound and exciting (IMO).


Will you be dealing with the Kiel/Marshall variation (3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4) and the old g6-lines or is the latter completely dead after the keymove c4-c5, ?
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #89 - 10/13/14 at 11:32:33
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/12/14 at 21:51:42:
smurfo wrote on 10/12/14 at 13:47:21:
I'm still trying to work out the best way to handle the 'Correspondence Refutation' with 4.f3 Bf5 5.g5 Bg6 6.c4 (discussed in depth in this thread).

The line was analyzed and recommended in 2008 by Michiel Wind, see Kaissiber #32, pp. 29-31. His idea 6...e6 7.Nc3! seems indeed critical. You call it "Correspondence Refutation", but I am not aware of older correspondence games.


Agree! The correspondence game I played with black started 15.04.2011 and finished 11.06.2011 - at that time I was fully unaware of the Kaissiber's analysis of Mr Wind. Though, probably my opponent with white seemed to be aware of it.
Let me say that when I played OTB chess up to 1994-1995, together with my friends who played Scandinavian at that time - we knew about this idea. Right now, I can't recall if we saw it in a game in the late 80's, or just found it while analyzing. There were no databases at that time and the openings' theory wasn't developed as it is now..  Undecided
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #88 - 10/12/14 at 21:51:42
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smurfo wrote on 10/12/14 at 13:47:21:
I'm still trying to work out the best way to handle the 'Correspondence Refutation' with 4.f3 Bf5 5.g5 Bg6 6.c4 (discussed in depth in this thread).

The line was analyzed and recommended in 2008 by Michiel Wind, see Kaissiber #32, pp. 29-31. His idea 6...e6 7.Nc3! seems indeed critical. You call it "Correspondence Refutation", but I am not aware of older correspondence games.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #87 - 10/12/14 at 13:47:21
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RoleyPoley wrote on 09/19/14 at 21:53:26:
Just one more thing!  Wink

Whats the balance of the book with regards to verbal explanation and analysis?

I'm only around 130ecf and prefer books like Ward's books on the Dragon and Williams' book on the French (and virtually anything by Wells) for their explanations. Not a deal breaker obviously, just curious...especially as there is so little out there on this opening and it's reputation Smiley


A lot of verbal explanation, as the book will primarily be of interest to players below master level, I'd guess.

Having said that, I've spent a LOT of time on the analysis, as my ultimate goal is to be able to propose a repertoire in which every line for Black is at least 'playable'. This has been quite a challenge! I'm still trying to work out the best way to handle the 'Correspondence Refutation' with 4.f3 Bf5 5.g5 Bg6 6.c4 (discussed in depth in this thread). More significantly, I've had to drop the Icelandic Gambit as my main recommendation after 3.c4, although I still cover it in detail, but fortunately there are some surprising gambit lines after 3.c4 c6 4.d4 that are both sound and exciting (IMO).
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #86 - 09/19/14 at 21:53:26
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smurfo wrote on 09/16/14 at 19:52:54:
The draft should be completed by the end of the year, so unfortunately it won't hit the shelves til early 2015. It's turning into a much bigger challenge than I anticipated, especially as I've made it a repertoire book against 1.e4.

By the way SWJediknight, you may be interested to know that I've analysed your diagrammed position after 15.b4 Nd5 to be practically winning for Black!


Just one more thing!  Wink

Whats the balance of the book with regards to verbal explanation and analysis?

I'm only around 130ecf and prefer books like Ward's books on the Dragon and Williams' book on the French (and virtually anything by Wells) for their explanations. Not a deal breaker obviously, just curious...especially as there is so little out there on this opening and it's reputation Smiley
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #85 - 09/17/14 at 21:23:07
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smurfo wrote on 09/16/14 at 19:52:54:
The draft should be completed by the end of the year, so unfortunately it won't hit the shelves til early 2015. It's turning into a much bigger challenge than I anticipated, especially as I've made it a repertoire book against 1.e4.



Thank you for providing an update as to when we may be able to expect it. I'm looking forward to it.

In the meantime i will give the lines from Levy/Keenes book a go. Never played the opening before but sounds a blast!
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #84 - 09/16/14 at 19:52:54
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The draft should be completed by the end of the year, so unfortunately it won't hit the shelves til early 2015. It's turning into a much bigger challenge than I anticipated, especially as I've made it a repertoire book against 1.e4.

By the way SWJediknight, you may be interested to know that I've analysed your diagrammed position after 15.b4 Nd5 to be practically winning for Black!
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #83 - 08/26/14 at 19:09:21
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smurfo wrote on 08/26/14 at 14:37:38:
That is true. The name is something I'll discuss in the book, but probably only briefly - there's too much chess to get to  Smiley


When do you think you will have your draft completed, and the when is the earliest we can expect to see it available?
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #82 - 08/26/14 at 14:37:38
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That is true. The name is something I'll discuss in the book, but probably only briefly - there's too much chess to get to  Smiley
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #81 - 08/26/14 at 10:19:03
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I thought the variation came from Belgium with IM Jadoul and Vandevoort. And then Portuguese players jumping on the bandwagon .... ?  Embarrassed
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #80 - 08/25/14 at 16:07:40
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It's coming! This is proving a much bigger project than I thought, largely thanks to this forum and also the mass of previously-unpublished correspondence analysis on the gambits. Still, I'm looking forward to finishing it, and I still haven't found a refutation. I'm actually travelling to Portugal next month and so I'm hoping to do some on-the-ground historical research  Wink

RoleyPoley wrote on 04/25/14 at 23:33:14:
Is GM Smerdon's book still coming out or is there another book on the portuguese/icelandic being written?

  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #79 - 07/23/14 at 14:55:36
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A good point- I think Black is still able to get decent play against 8.exf7+, but it is certainly more challenging than the 8.Nc3 that I gave.  The critical line seems to be 8...Kxf7 9.Kf2 (if 9.Qd2 Re8 10.Kf2 transposes, or Black can consider 9...Rd8) Re8 10.Qd2 Qd7 (Dworakowski-Moll, Groningen 1997).

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The idea is the typical exchange sacrifice on e3.  Now instead of 11.Nc3?! Rxe3 12.Kxe3 Bc5, White can continue 11.c5. Rxe3 12.Qxe3 (12.Kxe3 Nd5+) 12...Nxd4 13.Bc4+ Be6 14.Bxe6+ Nxe6.

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I think Black still has enough play for the material (White has to play the weakening 15.b4 to avoid ...Bxc5, and then Black chooses between 15...a5 and 15...Nd5).
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #78 - 07/22/14 at 14:43:05
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SWJediknight wrote on 04/25/14 at 23:22:57:
I have very recently produced articles on what I call the "Scandinavian gambits" (arising from 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6). 



In the Portuguese, 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. f3 Bf5 5. c4 e6 6. dxe6 Nc6 7. Be3 Qe7 8. exf7+! looks good for White (was played in a few correspondence games).

--Jon

  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #77 - 04/26/14 at 01:01:54
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Just noted that in a couple of earlier posts in the thread, my analysis after 10...Bd6 11.Ne2 Ne7 12.h5 Bf5 was improved on for White with 13.Ne3 c5 14.Kf2!, so will need to take a closer look at that line to see if I can come up with anything.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #76 - 04/25/14 at 23:33:14
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Is GM Smerdon's book still coming out or is there another book on the portuguese/icelandic being written?
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #75 - 04/25/14 at 23:22:57
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I have very recently produced articles on what I call the "Scandinavian gambits" (arising from 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6).  Although I play 1...e5 more often these days, I still sometimes wheel out these lines as well, and have had a recent outing in the line 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.f3 Bf5 5.Bb5+ Nbd7 6.c4 e6 7.dxe6 fxe6 8.Ne2 c6 9.Ba4.  Although I lost the game, the loss was not the fault of the opening, as I had a roughly equal position around move 15.  I believe that this line is Black's best antidote to the 5.Bb5+, 6.c4 approach.

http://tws27.weebly.com/icelandic-gambit.html
http://tws27.weebly.com/portuguese-gambit.html
http://tws27.weebly.com/3rd-move-alternatives-for-white.html

I am a club-level player, and set up this site mainly to provide introductions for club players who are interested in taking up these lines, but if any of my coverage proves helpful, by all means feel free to make use of it.  I'm certainly interested in the upcoming book, as I feel that my enthusiasm for these lines, and opinions on their merits, are pretty similar.

My assessment of the line 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 Bg6 6.c4 e6 7.Nc3 cxd5 8.g5 Nh5 was, "8...Nh5 is the main alternative but then 9.f4 leaves the knight on h5 in danger of being trapped and chopped off.  9...Nc6 10.Be2 Nb4
(10...dxc4 11.Bxh5 Bxh5 12.Qxh5 Nxd4 13.Kf2 Bc5 gives Black some, but not enough, compensation for the piece due to White's exposed king, De Waele,W (1976)-Bukharin,A (1956) Lechenicher SchachServer 2010, where White covers most of the threats with 14.Be3)
11.Bxh5 Nc2+ 12.Kf2 Nxa1 13.Bxg6 hxg6 14.cxd5 with advantage for White, Oreopoulos,K (2375)-Bensiek,N (2348) ICCF email 2011".

Indeed, 9...dxc4 10.Be2 Nc6 merely transposes.  I think Black's best tries are possibly 7...Bd6 (e.g. 8.Nge2 0-0 9.h4 h6 10.dxe6 Nc6 11.Bh3 fxe6 12.g5) and 8...Nfd7 9.Nxd5 Nc6 10.h4 Bd6 (e.g. 11.Ne2 Ne7 12.h5 Bf5 13.Be3 c5 14.d5).  The resulting positions are better for White, but I wouldn't mind taking Black in practice, because White's plan of pushing the kingside pawns forward leaves the white king without a reliable pawn shelter, which will always provide Black with some practical chances.

I agree that 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2 is a pretty dull line, especially as I couldn't make the bolder approaches with ...0-0-0 work for Black.  My attempt ran, 5...Bxe2 6.Qxe2 Nxd5 7.c4 N5f6 8.Nc3 c6 9.Nf3 Qc7 10.0-0 e6 11.d5 0-0-0 12.dxc6 bxc6 13.Rd1, and I didn't find Black's position very appealing, with minimal pawn shelter in front of the black king.  Indeed, if I ever face that line I may well be tempted to chance it with 4...c6, which, though unsound, is not as bad as I previously thought it might be.

My examinations of the line 3.Nf3 Bg4 suggest to me that it is no better or worse than 3.d4 Bg4 (in either a theoretical or practical sense) so I think it is an entirely reasonable and consistent recommendation.

  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #74 - 04/24/14 at 14:17:50
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CaptainFuture wrote on 04/24/14 at 11:08:57:
Hello Vass,
your analysis is interesting but the white player can avoid your given variations with 10.Be2 Nc6 (if Qe7 then Kf2!) 11.Bxh5 and that is the same as after 9...Nc6 10.Be2 dxc4 11.Bxh5
Kind regards,
Robert


Agree.  Wink
What I meant was that the position is sharp and therefore can be played OTB, though objectively white has to win with best play.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #73 - 04/24/14 at 11:08:57
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Hello Vass,
your analysis is interesting but the white player can avoid your given variations with 10.Be2 Nc6 (if Qe7 then Kf2!) 11.Bxh5 and that is the same as after 9...Nc6 10.Be2 dxc4 11.Bxh5
Kind regards,
Robert
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #72 - 03/09/14 at 18:53:23
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And what always amazed me in this opening is the stamina, even in the lines we discard easily. Recently, I looked at the following lines and found them pretty interesting to try OTB:


Many years ago I rejected 8...Nh5 because of 9.f4 with the f4-f5 and Qd1xh5 idea just stopping there. Now...I'm not sure! What I'm sure of, is if I play this above line OTB as a second player, I'll be the only one familiar with what is going over the board. Still, I think it will be too much to handle..  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #71 - 03/09/14 at 17:38:53
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Hi, Mr Smerdon!
A long time friend of mine (we live in the same city and both play Scandinavian Portuguese OTB) struggled as a second player in this correspondence chess game:



Probably, you have to choose your move 10....Nb6!? instead of 10...0-0 in this line.  Undecided
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #70 - 03/09/14 at 15:32:55
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Hi guys. Sorry for the long delay between posts - I've taken a break from the book for a while. But I come bearing gifts!

Firstly, GabrielGale's analysis was robust enough to put me off that variation. But I've done some work on 7...Nfd7 8.Nc3 Bb4!? which, I believe, gives Black very good chances of sufficient compensation (I know that sounds like a dodgy sentence, but we are talking about the Portuguese, after all!). I've attached some lines on it - criticisms are very welcome!

Secondly, and assuming the reliability of 8...Bb4, I've had more of a problem dealing with the move order 7.Nc3, where, due to the check on a4, ...Bb4 is not an option. Black's best appear to be 7...c5 and 7...Bd6. The latter appears most reliable, although the crazy sacrificial line after 8.Nge2! exd5 9.g5 dxc4!? probably works out in White's favour with best play. More work to be done here!

In reply to tipau's comments:

1) I will argue in the book that 3.Nf3 Bg4 is very playable. Indeed, the line you mention with 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.h3 Bh5 6.Nc3 a6 7.Be2 is, in my opinion, fundamentally equal in the end. But Black has almost no winning chances, which I agree is a problem - but perhaps not enough to prevent me from publishing.

2) This is a very tricky line to meet, but Black can significantly improve with 10...h5!

3) This is a very annoying line indeed. I've done a lot of work on 4...c6, although fundamentally it's unsound, as you say. The main line you give after 4...Nbd7 5.Be2 is indeed more comfortable for White; however, again, I think Black is in principle fine with best play.

I'm very impressed that you mention here the two most annoying lines for Black! Neither is a refutation, but both are good choices over-the-board. However, if a refutation does exist, it's probably in this c4-g4 system I referred to above.

Looking forward to your comments!

Dave

  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #69 - 11/10/13 at 23:03:56
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Great new! I loved playing the Portugeese in my teen years and will certainly be picking up a copy of this book when it's finished.

A few contributing factors to me giving up the line were the following...

1) I'm not sure it's possible to get (sound) unique play after 3.Nf3:



not really convinced by either 5...a6 6.Ba4 or 5...Bh5 6.Nc3...


2) I had a crushing defeat by a young Romain Edouard in the following line:




3. White can quite easily kill the fun with 4.Bb5 Nbd7 5.Be2:

  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #68 - 11/01/13 at 02:36:16
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My apologies for the presumption but I find it easier to see it on the replay board and so have incorporated MNb's suggestion: MNb wrote on 10/31/13 at 22:36:29:
Perhaps 14.Kf2 O-O 15.b4 cxb4 16.a3 bxa3 17.h6 g67 18.c5 Bc7 19.Rxa3 f6 (iso b5) to create counterchances against the white king. A forcing line is 20.Qb3+ Kh8 21.Qxb7 fxg5 22.Nxf5 Nxf5 23.Bxg5 Qxg5 24.Qxc7 Nf6 15.Qf4 Qxf4 16.Nxf4 Nxd4 and Black is not busted yet.
Or Black should follow your main line with 7...Nh5. At the end after 17.Rd1 Rxd1 18.Qxd1 h6 19.h3 hxg5 20.fxg5 Rh4 Black has some chances against White's shaky king.

  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #67 - 10/31/13 at 22:36:29
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Perhaps 14.Kf2 O-O 15.b4 cxb4 16.a3 bxa3 17.h6 g67 18.c5 Bc7 19.Rxa3 f6 (iso b5) to create counterchances against the white king. A forcing line is 20.Qb3+ Kh8 21.Qxb7 fxg5 22.Nxf5 Nxf5 23.Bxg5 Qxg5 24.Qxc7 Nf6 15.Qf4 Qxf4 16.Nxf4 Nxd4 and Black is not busted yet.
Or Black should follow your main line with 7...Nh5. At the end after 17.Rd1 Rxd1 18.Qxd1 h6 19.h3 hxg5 20.fxg5 Rh4 Black has some chances against White's shaky king.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #66 - 10/31/13 at 21:30:02
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What put me off of this 10...Bd6 & 11...Ne7 line back then...was 14.Kf2! (in your main line):



I took my old (pgn) notes, ran my Houdini 3 in 'tactical mode' and it confirmed my then evaluation.. Which is in between +/- and +-  Embarrassed
Please, correct me if I'm wrong! (Too much correspondence chess games await my attention, so I can't run a serious IDeA analysis right now).
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #65 - 10/31/13 at 15:46:53
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Hm, that is indeed a critical line. Fortunately, it's not played very often over-the-board, but I agree that in correspondence in particular, the early g4/c4 is a very good attempt at a refutation.

I was impressed by your handling of the long and wild line that leads to the endgame. I brushed that line aside, thinking that White must be much better with the bishops, but you held it well. However, I am more interested in Black's aggressive options, even if the compensation is not completely sufficient.

Attached are some lines for thought. What do you think?

  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #64 - 10/31/13 at 09:24:45
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #63 - 10/30/13 at 19:50:38
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"For the Portuguese/Icelandic afficionados, please let me know the holes in your analysis that have put you off the opening, and I'll try to make sure they are addressed in the book (which I'm designing to be a complete repertoire to 1.e4). "

Good news ! Do you plan to write a book on the Portuguese ? Could we have more informations about it ? I'm very interested in it and I'm sure not to be the only one  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #62 - 10/30/13 at 12:32:35
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Thanks Vass for sharing. Although I am yet to play the Gambit, I have been learning the Scandinavian but thus far only the ...Qa5 from the Wahls, Muller and Lnagrock book. But I am tempted to give ...Nf6 a go and then it is a short hop and skip to the Gambit.

Your files will be useful for me to consider the lines.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #61 - 10/30/13 at 10:36:55
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Hi guys!

Thanks to brabo for letting me know about this thread. Hopefully I'll keep hopping back in here to share my analysis with you all (so that you can rip it apart and shatter my ego).

But firstly, yes, the book is primarily designed as a fun read. I won't try to hide anything, and I'll address every supposed 'refutation' I've come across (from my research to date, there are many!). I haven't found any that genuinely refute the gambit, though deep down I'm sure my beloved Portuguese is unsound. If you can excuse a morbid metaphor, the refutation of the Portuguese is a bit like death: You know it's coming one day, but you just don't know when or how...

For the Portuguese/Icelandic afficionados, please let me know the holes in your analysis that have put you off the opening, and I'll try to make sure they are addressed in the book (which I'm designing to be a complete repertoire to 1.e4).

One criticism I have to address now is that White can 'take the fun' out of our true love. Well, yes, if White knows his or her theory really well, unfortunately that's true. But this is the same for any black opening; Najdorf and Dragon players have to deal with 3.Bb5+ or 2.c3, for example, and Marshall Gambit devotees have to deal with the Four Knights' Scotch. My aim in the book will be to ensure that if White does snuff out the coffeehouse tactics, Black can at least reach equality - which I'm counting as a theoretical win.

Having said that, when White does decline the gambit with quieter systems (say 4.Be2) and Black has a choice of ways to get equality, I'm always advocating the most aggressive options to keep the spirit of the line. I'm talking about opposite castling on most occasions, weird and unusual pawn structures, and launching highly nonclassical blitzkriegs out of nowhere. We're going to maximise the chances of getting the sort of crazy positions we want, although unfortunately if the other guy really knows his stuff, it won't be possible 100% of the time.

Looking forward to your feedback!

Dave

PS Many thanks for the correspondence games, Vass!!
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #60 - 10/30/13 at 10:00:30
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Just to help Mr Smerdon...
I've just made a Scandinavian Portuguese Correspondence Chess database (in cbv) including all the sources I have:
https://mega.co.nz/#!pgl1QSKY!dwSIjE2VjFMBlfaMheMBTHBjqa4ZRWLIZ95rG4OdKfU
...as well as a ctg-book out of the games in this database (in a rar file):
https://mega.co.nz/#!EotHAILS!aW7bnD4RZjlkZvyjtamElH2ZRBhyr_mQQbjpXIwJSOs
Feel free to use it!  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #59 - 10/30/13 at 09:23:16
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I am very curious about what Smerdon offers against the line given by Greet in his book on beating unusual defences to 1.e4, as this was the main continuation that put me off playing the Portugese in serious games.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #58 - 10/30/13 at 08:30:44
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Hi, GabrielGale!  Smiley
Thank you very much for this link and information about a forthcoming Scandinavian Portuguese book!
I very much appreciate the efforts of GM David Smerdon to write such a book. And I do share completely his view about this opening variation. It's a passion.., love.., thriller..and as he says: "...you are guaranteed to have a lot of fun, and will conclude the game in 30 moves either way."
"It's going to be the first honest opening book ever written..", he says, and I completely believe him.
Anyway, I went into the correspondence chess recently...which definitely made me go astray the Portuguese path. What is more, I even started playing sound openings in my OTB tries, probably influenced from the correspondence chess. But, no matter what - first love is first love!
Needless to say, that I'll be the first one to buy this book.
As for the analysis lines, I'll have to dig over my old notes.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #57 - 10/30/13 at 01:42:24
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GabrielGale wrote on 06/30/11 at 07:20:52:
Dear Vass and Stefan,

Cannot offer any concrete analysis but thought I should point you to a fellow Aussie, GM David Smerdon, currently playing in the Commonwealth Chess Champs in SA (with GM Nigel Short and GM Gawain Jones et al). David was interviewed on a blog (here: http://commonwealthchess.blogspot.com/2011/06/day-3-of-commonwealth-dave-smerdon...) and this what he has to say about the Portugese Var:
Quote:
MER:- Any chess related book projects for you?
DS:- Possibly a book on the Portuguese variation of the Scandinavian (1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4)
I'm the strongest player in the world who plays it, not really because I am that strong but because no other grandmasters this strength would touch it. Its going to be the first honest opening book ever written, basically stating upfront that the variation is opening is rubbish, but you are guaranteed to have a lot of fun, and will conclude the game in 30 moves either way.


Maybe Stefan, you should get him to write for Kassiber ...... David is heading to Amsterdam in the near future to study fro a MA (Econs) and will be in Europe for a while yet. Check out the interview or David's own blog: http://www.davidsmerdon.com/


Dear All Portugese fans, an update of my own post.

GM David Smerdon has announced that he is contracted to write a book on the Gambit with Everyman Chess and as his story goes, after he defeated GM John Emms with the Gambit in a recent game in the 4NCL.
http://www.davidsmerdon.com/?p=1215
He annotates that game as well as a another recent rapid game which he says is a t5otally unknown line of the Gambit.

Perhaps we should start an analysis lines which we hope to see in the book and get a GM to consider it.
Any takers? Vass?
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #56 - 04/14/12 at 15:14:02
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PANFR wrote on 03/28/12 at 19:38:45:
I cannot see how Black can achieve something remotely resembling equality after 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Be2 Nxd5 5.d4.
Now 5...b5 doesn't look like a serious move, and 5...Bf5 6.Nf3 e6 7.0-0 Nc6?! is bad due to 8.c4! Nb4 9.Nc3! when going after that a1 rook with 9...Nc2 loses to 10.d5 Nxa1 11.Qa4!
So, Black has to play something like 7...Be7 when besides the enterprising 8.c4!? Nb4 9.Nc3 Nc2 10.Rb1 Nb4 11.Be3 Bxb1 12.Qxb1 where white has terrific positional compensation for the exchange (although not necessarily enough to win in a correspondence game), he can also play routinely 8.a3 followed by c4 etc.
Where exactly Black is OK in these lines? Did I omit something critical?


I certainly think Black can at least fight for equality here. For example 7...Be7 8.a3 0-0 9.c4 Nb6 10.Nc3 Nc6 11.Be3 (11.h3 Bf6 12.Be2 is the same) 11...Bf6 12.h3!?
(this stops 12...Qe7 because of 13.g4! Bg6 14.g5 winning the piece. 13.b3 Qe7 and if 13.b4 Bg4 - one game of mine continued 14.Ne4 Bxf3 15.Nxf6+ Qxf6 16.Bxf3 Nxc4 17.Bxc6 bxc6 18.Qc2 Nb6 {18...Nxe3 19.fxe3 Qg5 is possible} 19.Qxc6 Nd5 =)
12...Bg6
(12...h6 13.b4 e5! 14.d5 e4 15.Nd4 Nxd4 16.Bxd4 c6 17.Rc1 is also reasonable for Black imo. Emms says White is better after 17...cxd5? 18.c5 but if Black instead keeps the tension with 17...Re8 and Rc8 I don't see why White is better)
13.b4 e5 14.d5
(14.dxe5 Nxe5 15.Nxe5 Bxe5 =)
14...e4 15.Nd4 Nxd4
(Emms only gives 15...Ne5 without comment but after 16.Qb3 White is playing c5 and looks good to me)
16.Bxd4 c6 17.Bxf6 Qxf6 18.Qb3 was played in one of my games and now 18...cxd5 19.Nxd5 Nxd5 20.cxd5 is if anything a little better for Black. Maybe White does better with 17.Rc1 but I'm still not really scared for Black.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #55 - 03/29/12 at 02:00:50
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I have played this line as Black some 15 years ago and while it's not much fun Black doesn't need to feel terrorized either. My main objection is the lack of winning chances.
As White I prefer the more ambitious 4.Bc4 and as Black 3...Nbd7.

That line 7...Be7 8.c4 Nb4 9.Nc3 should be met 9...Nc2 10.Rb1 O-O. Playing chess is different from playing checkers - we are not obliged to take.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #54 - 03/28/12 at 20:32:29
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Offhand it seems plausible to me that Black should have something "remotely resembling equality" after 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Be2 Nxd5 5.d4 Bf5 6. Nf3 e6 7. 0-0 Be7 8. a3 (and I see that some books have given it as leading to equality).
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #53 - 03/28/12 at 19:38:45
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SWJediknight wrote on 12/21/11 at 16:50:11:
My impression was always that Black was OK after 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bc4 Bg4 and 4.Be2 Nxd5 5.d4 Bf5 or 5...b5!? (mentioned by Watson in a Chesspublishing update) and 3...Nbd7 has also been gaining attention.   Note that if 3.Bb5+ is very strong, this casts doubt on the entire 2...Nf6 Scandinavian, not just the approaches with 3...Bg4.


I cannot see how Black can achieve something remotely resembling equality after 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Be2 Nxd5 5.d4.
Now 5...b5 doesn't look like a serious move, and 5...Bf5 6.Nf3 e6 7.0-0 Nc6?! is bad due to 8.c4! Nb4 9.Nc3! when going after that a1 rook with 9...Nc2 loses to 10.d5 Nxa1 11.Qa4!
So, Black has to play something like 7...Be7 when besides the enterprising 8.c4!? Nb4 9.Nc3 Nc2 10.Rb1 Nb4 11.Be3 Bxb1 12.Qxb1 where white has terrific positional compensation for the exchange (although not necessarily enough to win in a correspondence game), he can also play routinely 8.a3 followed by c4 etc.
Where exactly Black is OK in these lines? Did I omit something critical?
« Last Edit: 03/28/12 at 22:41:16 by PANFR »  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #52 - 03/25/12 at 20:15:32
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SWJediknight wrote on 12/21/11 at 16:50:11:
After 3.Nf3, 3...Bg4 is again possible, though dubious- 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.h3! is White's route to some advantage (rather than 5.c4 e6!?).  See Silman's analysis for more details:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/120302_can_white_avoid_dr.html
also Michael Goeller looked at 3.Nf3 Bg4 here:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/articles/opening/anti-port.htm
If Black considers 3...Bg4 too risky there is always 3...Qxd5 which often transposes to regular "Portuguese declined" lines after, say, 4.d4 Bg4 5.Be2.


I think Black can have another problem if White refrains from d2-d4 with 3.Nf3 Qxd5 4.Nc3 when 4...Qh5 5.Be2 Bg4 6.h3 and 7.0-0 leaves Black worse so Black does best to enter the ...Qa5 or ...Qd6 lines and doesn't get independent Portuguese style play.

That said, personally I don't mind the ...Qd6 lines and would happily play the variation again if White didn't have such a simple and risk free advantage with 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2...Sad
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #51 - 12/21/11 at 17:54:42
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SWJediknight wrote on 12/21/11 at 16:50:11:
After 3.Nf3, 3...Bg4 is again possible, though dubious- 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.h3! is White's route to some advantage (rather than 5.c4 e6!?).  See Silman's analysis for more details:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/120302_can_white_avoid_dr.html
also Michael Goeller looked at 3.Nf3 Bg4 here:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/articles/opening/anti-port.htm
If Black considers 3...Bg4 too risky there is always 3...Qxd5 which often transposes to regular "Portuguese declined" lines after, say, 4.d4 Bg4 5.Be2.

My impression was always that Black was OK after 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bc4 Bg4 and 4.Be2 Nxd5 5.d4 Bf5 or 5...b5!? (mentioned by Watson in a Chesspublishing update) and 3...Nbd7 has also been gaining attention.   Note that if 3.Bb5+ is very strong, this casts doubt on the entire 2...Nf6 Scandinavian, not just the approaches with 3...Bg4.  But I think 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ (discussed earlier in the thread) is an improved version of that line for White.

Absolutely agree with you!..  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #50 - 12/21/11 at 16:50:11
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After 3.Nf3, 3...Bg4 is again possible, though dubious- 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.h3! is White's route to some advantage (rather than 5.c4 e6!?).  See Silman's analysis for more details:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/120302_can_white_avoid_dr.html
also Michael Goeller looked at 3.Nf3 Bg4 here:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/articles/opening/anti-port.htm
If Black considers 3...Bg4 too risky there is always 3...Qxd5 which often transposes to regular "Portuguese declined" lines after, say, 4.d4 Bg4 5.Be2.

My impression was always that Black was OK after 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bc4 Bg4 and 4.Be2 Nxd5 5.d4 Bf5 or 5...b5!? (mentioned by Watson in a Chesspublishing update) and 3...Nbd7 has also been gaining attention.   Note that if 3.Bb5+ is very strong, this casts doubt on the entire 2...Nf6 Scandinavian, not just the approaches with 3...Bg4.  But I think 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ (discussed earlier in the thread) is an improved version of that line for White.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #49 - 12/21/11 at 16:35:00
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BTW: 3.Nf3 is also a pain in the a**
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #48 - 12/21/11 at 12:34:23
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JN wrote on 12/21/11 at 10:36:27:
The move that put me off the Portuguese was 3.Bb5+. Isn't it just a simple += for white?

+= at least..  Wink
But what a fun to play in an OTB game against an unprepared opponent!  Grin
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #47 - 12/21/11 at 10:36:27
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The move that put me off the Portuguese was 3.Bb5+. Isn't it just a simple += for white?
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #46 - 11/08/11 at 10:02:21
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As I remarked on the previous page.

MNb wrote on 11/05/11 at 21:47:45:
After reading that column I asked FM Galore by em-mail a way out of my dilemma:


Wink
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #45 - 11/08/11 at 08:28:32
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MNb wrote on 11/07/11 at 16:03:07:
And 11...Nc6!? is more ambitious than 11...Re8. A sample line is 12.exf7+ Rxf7 13.O-O Rd8 14.Rfe1 Nh5 15.Qe6 Qxe6 16.Rxe6 Nf4 17.Re3 Nd3 and Black will have two very active Knights (the other will possibly go to c2 via b4).
10.O-O Nbd7 and Black can afford castling Queenside, which is more interesting than the lines we discussed above.

And thus, we don't have to play a boring version of Caro-Kann..  Grin
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #44 - 11/07/11 at 16:03:07
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And 11...Nc6!? is more ambitious than 11...Re8. A sample line is 12.exf7+ Rxf7 13.O-O Rd8 14.Rfe1 Nh5 15.Qe6 Qxe6 16.Rxe6 Nf4 17.Re3 Nd3 and Black will have two very active Knights (the other will possibly go to c2 via b4).
10.O-O Nbd7 and Black can afford castling Queenside, which is more interesting than the lines we discussed above.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #43 - 11/07/11 at 11:50:13
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9...Qf5! is better than 9...Qd6, of course..  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #42 - 11/05/11 at 21:47:45
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After reading that column I asked FM Galore by em-mail a way out of my dilemma:

MNb wrote on 10/07/11 at 21:48:04:
No, but if I play a sharp move like 3...Bg4 I don't expect to get a boring version of the Caro-Kann either.


The game Wedberg-Hodgson, Harplinge 1998 looks interesting. A Chessbase note (Wedberg or Karsten Müller?)  is 7.c4 (Wedberg played 7.O-O first, when the Queen can go to h5 later) Bb4+ (Qh5 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.d5 and 8...Bd6 9.c5 is not what I want) 8.Bd2 (Black doesn't have seem to have problems after 8.Nbd2 and 8.Nc3) Bxd2+ 9.Nbxd2 Qd6 10.d5 O-O ending +=. But this idea seems to be stronger with 9...Qf5. Black claims that the exchange of the other Bishops improves compared to Leko-Damaso, Olympiade 1996, though 11.dxe6 Re8 also is reasonable. After just 10.O-O Nbd7 Black can castle Queenside.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #41 - 10/28/11 at 13:43:25
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Alias wrote on 10/28/11 at 07:26:26:

A kind of overview but nothing new under the sky.  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #40 - 10/28/11 at 07:26:26
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Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #39 - 10/21/11 at 21:20:00
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Well..well..well!  Smiley
@CaptainFuture - Hi, Robert! I'm glad to hear from you...here, on this forum.. As you already know ..I appreciate your braveness with this c6!? gambit in the abovementioned game of yours.. A setup far from theory (and soundness  Wink maybe) as long as I know..
Anyway, in the game you published in your post...I wonder why you played this 7...Bb4 (btw, Selby Anderson in his Center Counter, the Portuguese variation, 1997, says about it "This natural developing move has been the main line."  Wink ). And James Plaskett in his Scandinavian Defence book (2004) states: "The usual treatment. Black hurries his pieces out into the world. <inserts a diagram...and continues> After some early spectacular successes, I must say that it is not clear to me that this is definitely Black's best option."... And from all the options that he previously gives in his book my choice has always been for the strange looking and somehow unnatural 7...Qe7!? (Of course, I play 7....Nb4!? 8.Na3 Qe7!?, too..) And here I wonder why you chose 7...Bb4 (to give your proud bishop for such an animal as this one on c3  Shocked ) when even 7...fxe6!? and Qd8-d7 next..looks better, imho..
As for 7...Bb4 variation - what to say?! Your opponent's 9.a3 is a good try (Grischuk in 1996 when he was only 2375 ELO rated played it too against Michael Chow at Cala Galdana, Spain) ...trying to emphasize on your Bb4-adventure. While John Emms in his The Scandinavian (2004), 2nd edition (2006) gives a !-mark to another move for white - 9.Bd3.. (Maybe influenced by John Roush/Mark Lance/Mike Cornell's judgement for this one in their Scandinavian Defence, Portuguese Variation, 1998.) Then you obviously went for 10...0-0-0 which seems to be a novelty (I don't have my corr. database on my laptop right now..to be sure), but not successful as it seems. Instead, Guy West (Australia, 2405) in his game with Maher Himdan (Egypt, 2365) played the simple 10...0-0 (yes, Djy!) at Elista, Olympiad 1998 about which game Plaskett simply says "..although white managed to draw."  Cool
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #38 - 10/21/11 at 19:21:46
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Hello Djy,

thanks for your quick reply and your cool idea! Wink
Although in the portuguese variation the black side normaly aims for long castling, 10...0-0 seems to be fully playable and i found no hole in your analysis.

Kind Regards,
Robert
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #37 - 10/21/11 at 17:59:38
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I Robert!
With 2450 you 're ahead of me so i give some variations without commentary. I have'nt check the game yet . But the first idea (just a few minute of analyse) is for 10....0-0 the column f look more sensible than the d one and the king safer.


[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Portugaise 5.c4!?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B01"]
[Annotator "Dji"]
[PlyCount "44"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. f3 Bf5 5. c4  e6  6. dxe6 Nc6  7. Be3
Bb4+ 8. Nc3 Qe7 9. a3 Bxc3+ 10. bxc3 O-O 11. d5 Na5 12. g4 (12. Bf4 fxe6 13.
d6 Qf7 14. dxc7 e5 15. Bxe5 Rae8 16. f4 Ng4) (12. Qa4 b6 13. g4 (13. Ne2 fxe6
14. Nd4 Bg4 (14... Nd7) (14... Rae8 15. O-O-O Nd7) 15. fxg4 exd5 (15... Nxg4
16. Bg1 exd5+ 17. Be2 Ne3  (17... c5))) 13... Nxg4) 12... Nxg4 13. fxg4 Be4
14. Nf3 fxe6 15. Bg2 Bxf3 (15... Nxc4 16. d6 Qf6 17. Bd4 Bxf3 18. Bxf6 Bxd1 19.
Be7 Bxg4 20. Bxf8 Rxf8 21. dxc7 Rc8 22. Bxb7 Rxc7 23. Ba6) 16. Bxf3 Qh4+ 17.
Ke2 (17. Bf2 Qf6 18. O-O Qxf3 19. Qxf3 Rxf3 20. dxe6 Re8 21. Rad1 Nxc4 22. Rd7
Rxe6) 17... Rxf3 18. Kxf3 Qh3+ 19. Ke2 Qg2+ 20. Bf2 Rf8 21. Rf1 Nxc4 22. Ke1
Ne3 *

  Perputuel check at the moment but to be continued!!! 
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #36 - 10/21/11 at 13:37:47
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Hello Vass,

first let me thank you for your interesting thoughts on the portuguese variation.  Wink
In fact you did quote a corr game of mine!  Smiley
I was the black player in the game Boronowskis, Peter - Bauer, Robert, 0-1 (50), 2006 that you quoted in reply  #17 above. Now i have a ICCF rating of ~2450.
I got a good score with that opening but one defeat was very crushing:



May be you have some ideas on that variation too. Where can blacks play be improved?   Huh

Kind regards,
Robert
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #35 - 10/07/11 at 21:48:04
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No, but if I play a sharp move like 3...Bg4 I don't expect to get a boring version of the Caro-Kann either.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #34 - 10/07/11 at 12:42:43
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MNb wrote on 10/07/11 at 10:21:02:
Djy wrote on 10/07/11 at 08:17:26:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3
I think in this line the solid 6.-e6 is better than the 'active' 6.-Nc6 .Probably white is still a tiny better but not much as in the 6.-Nc6 line. In practice the results are ok

Yeah, but play is not very exciting either.

Well, we don't expect to checkmate our opponent in every game.  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #33 - 10/07/11 at 10:21:02
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Djy wrote on 10/07/11 at 08:17:26:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3
I think in this line the solid 6.-e6 is better than the 'active' 6.-Nc6 .Probably white is still a tiny better but not much as in the 6.-Nc6 line. In practice the results are ok

Yeah, but play is not very exciting either.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #32 - 10/07/11 at 08:17:26
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1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3
I think in this line the solid 6.-e6 is better than the 'active' 6.-Nc6 .Probably white is still a tiny better but not much as in the 6.-Nc6 line. In practice the results are ok

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 e6 7.0-0 Nc6 8.Rd1 0-0-0 9.c4 and here Qf5 is iteresting 10.Nc3 (10.a3 g5!?) h6 11.Be3 g5 and it's difficult to say anything without a deep analyse
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #31 - 10/07/11 at 08:12:21
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Vass wrote on 10/07/11 at 07:15:50:
OK, brabo! I fully agree with you. No fun for black here.. Playing for two results is never a pleasure. And as all the Scandinavian players know..when there's no viking axe - no win!.. So, let's turn to the main line! What after 6...e6?

Well it has been from 2005 that I had a look at 6...e6 so I don't know how far I can still trust my old analysis. I always try to steer the game to the following keyposition:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 e6 7.0-0 Nc6 8.Rd1 0-0-0 9.c4 Qh5 10.Nc3 Bd6 (Many transpositions are possible to get to this position and also quite some deviations exist of which only a few I studied a bit.) 11.c5 Be7 12.b4! with a very strong attack. I discovered this move in 2000 and tested it in OTB with success in 2005. I should once redo my old analysis if no improvements can be found on faster and better HW+SW.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #30 - 10/07/11 at 07:15:50
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OK, brabo! I fully agree with you. No fun for black here.. Playing for two results is never a pleasure. And as all the Scandinavian players know..when there's no viking axe - no win!.. So, let's turn to the main line! What after 6...e6?
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #29 - 10/06/11 at 21:40:29
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Vass wrote on 10/05/11 at 20:49:22:
White definitely has an edge, but not enough imho..  Maybe white has some improvements, too.. But the way it goes I think black has resources..  Cool

I estimate that white can score from the 9...g5 position at least 75% which means 2 things
- black plays only for a draw or a loss
- white scores more than average (compared with more solid openings like KID or Gruenfeld where whites score lays close to 60%).

Whites edge is not neglectable if you search for further improvements in the lines you indicate:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 8.Qxe4 (I prepared and analysed this briefly once for an OTB game as the correspondence games with Be3 weren't easy to crack in the short available timeframe, I discovered with 9.0-0 a new idea and I always have been an aficionado from endgames. ) Nxe4 9.0-0 g5

A)10.Re1 (Still not clear to me if variant A or B creates the best winning chances for white. Anyway I see it as a luxury problem.) g4 11.Rxe4 gxf3 12.d5 Nb4 13.Nc3 Nd3 (An interesting alternative but I doubt that it is better.) 14.gxf3 (g3 must also give a small edge to white. As it can lead to some extreme wild positions, I prefer to stay away from it if not really necessary.) f5 15.Rh4 (Rd4 seems also good for +/=) Bg7 16.Kf1 (This looks stronger than f4 as white keeps more flexibility and the king plays a more active role) h5!? 17.Rb1 and the endgame seems very unpleasant for black.

B)10.d5 g4 11.dxc6 gxf3 12.gxf3 Rg8+ (Again same remark as for your other recommendation. I doubt that it is better as pushing the king to h1 also gives white the chance to play in some lines Rg1) 13.Kh1 Nd6 14.cxb7 (c5 is an interesting alternative which should be good enough for also +/=) Nxb7 15.Rd1 (I believe 15.Nc3 with the idea of Bf4 or 15.Be3 with the idea of Nd2 or Na3 are also valid tries to play for a win) Nd6 16.Na3 and the defense for black won't be a walk in the park.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #28 - 10/06/11 at 11:36:54
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Jupp53 wrote on 10/06/11 at 09:38:09:
Hi Vass,
liking your posts here mostly. So you have the fate of a critzism in my first reply to one of them.
Personally I can't find much sense in 8.QxQ in your line. It's exchanging queens in a slightly better position for giving up the better development in one move. It earns ?!. 8.Le3 seemed the natural response and white has a slightly better game after 8. .. Ng4 or 8. .. e6 and 9.Nc3.
It's all I want from an opening - a little space advantage, attacking prospects, good state of development. This is probable more difficult for black than other scandinavian lines.
Regards

Hi Jupp53,
I appreciate your opinion. White has many ways to prove an edge. In this case you mention (8. Be3) I've found only three correspondent games in my database. All of them finish 1/2. Two of them I published in my post (reply #13) earlier in this thread, i.e. Vera Ruiz, Heraclio (2167) - Aguilar Gómez, Pablo (2248) and Solf, Frank (2232) - Tleptsok, Ruslan Aslanovich. White played 9. 0-0 and 10. Nc3 while black retreats on f5 with the queen in both of them. Thus transposing to the position you like for white. Of course, white has an edge here. I never said black had easy play in this position. But isn't it just like that in other openings too, say KID or Gruenfeld for example. One step aside and you're lost.. The fact that in correspondence games this variation survives is speaking for itself.  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #27 - 10/06/11 at 09:38:09
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Hi Vass,
liking your posts here mostly. So you have the fate of a critzism in my first reply to one of them.
Personally I can't find much sense in 8.QxQ in your line. It's exchanging queens in a slightly better position for giving up the better development in one move. It earns ?!. 8.Le3 seemed the natural response and white has a slightly better game after 8. .. Ng4 or 8. .. e6 and 9.Nc3.
It's all I want from an opening - a little space advantage, attacking prospects, good state of development. This is probable more difficult for black than other scandinavian lines.
Regards
  

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Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #26 - 10/06/11 at 09:12:40
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I agree with both of you, guys. All in all, Portuguese is hard to manage with and gives += for white in some variations.. I played it in correspondence games three or four times only...and somehow survived.. But, if you know what fun is to play it OTB against some unprepared opponents..  Cheesy
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #25 - 10/06/11 at 08:30:33
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Or a real life game for that matter Smiley

I guess you might be just be able to analyse that rook ending enough to be confident of your ability to hold it, but the line after 10 d5? Its horrible. Suspect it wouldn't be entirely trivial if you removed whites f3 pawn.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #24 - 10/06/11 at 02:05:27
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Be honest - would you want to be Black in corr. games in the two final positions of your lines? I wouldn't.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #23 - 10/05/11 at 20:49:22
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White definitely has an edge, but not enough imho.. My improvements here can be as follows:

I'm not pretending this is an ultimate analysis. Maybe white has some improvements, too.. But the way it goes I think black has resources..  Cool
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #22 - 10/05/11 at 19:15:36
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Vass wrote on 10/05/11 at 08:34:25:
Well, 9...e6 seems to be an inaccuracy (after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 8.Qxe4 Nxe4 9.0-0). And yes, 12.Na3 is a good improvement for +=. But black can manage this with the sharp 9...g5N (not weakening the position with an early e7-e6). Don't forget we're playing Scandinavian..and have to be vikings!  Wink A posible variation next can be 10. d5 g4 11. Nfd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 Nd4 13. Nc3 Bg7 14. Rad1 O-O-O with no problems for the second player.

I believe whites play can be improved so black still has problems to solve after
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 8.Qxe4 Nxe4 9.0-0 g5N
A) 10.Re1 g4 11.Rxe4 gxf3 12.d5 Nb4 13.Nc3 fxg2 14.Bf4 +/=
or
B) 10.d5 g4 11.dxc6 (The line you mention with Nfd2 isn't fully clear either as in your endposition Rybka still shows some interesting ideas based on 15.Ne4.) gxf3 12.gxf3 Nc5 13.cxb7 Rb8 14.Nc3 Bg7 15.Rd1 +/=
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #21 - 10/05/11 at 10:24:32
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I'll look into this 4...c6 possibility later when I have more time, but my initial thoughts draw an analogy with a sideline of one of the main lines of the Göring Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bb4 6.Bg5).  There are a few differences, White has the extra tempo d2-d4 while Black, having not played ...e5, can use that tempo elsewhere but lacks the central control that is characteristic of the Göring.  (Incidentally, according to Stefan Buecker, Göring was the first known player to introduce this 3...Bg4 idea).  Those considerations suggest to me that Black probably doesn't have enough compensation here, though as with many such lines, OTB it may be a different story.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #20 - 10/05/11 at 09:49:42
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Vass wrote on 10/05/11 at 07:09:33:
I for one think that the simple 7. Nf3 (after 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. Bb5 c6 5. dxc6 Qa5 6. Nc3 Nxc6) is best and white has his +=.

Based on my experience with the Göring/Danish Gambit I think 5...Qa5+ is not such a good move. Better 5...Nxc6 and only after 6.f3 Black might consider Qa5+, but even here I have my doubts.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #19 - 10/05/11 at 08:34:25
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brabo wrote on 10/05/11 at 07:55:27:
Vass wrote on 10/04/11 at 10:40:09:
Absolutely. Black has to be very cautious when playing this. There are several improvements though. In corr.chess 7... Qe4!? achieves equality

I am not so sure about this.
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 (I also believe this is better than Qf5 as I mentioned in my old analysis of 2005) 8.Qxe4 Nxe4 9.0-0 e6 10.Re1 Nd6 11.d5 Nb4 12.Na3N with still some advantage for white.

Well, 9...e6 seems to be an inaccuracy (after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 8.Qxe4 Nxe4 9.0-0). And yes, 12.Na3 is a good improvement for +=. But black can manage this with the sharp 9...g5N (not weakening the position with an early e7-e6). Don't forget we're playing Scandinavian..and have to be vikings!  Wink A posible variation next can be 10. d5 g4 11. Nfd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2 Nd4 13. Nc3 Bg7 14. Rad1 O-O-O with no problems for the second player.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #18 - 10/05/11 at 07:55:27
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Vass wrote on 10/04/11 at 10:40:09:
Absolutely. Black has to be very cautious when playing this. There are several improvements though. In corr.chess 7... Qe4!? achieves equality

I am not so sure about this.
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qe4 (I also believe this is better than Qf5 as I mentioned in my old analysis of 2005) 8.Qxe4 Nxe4 9.0-0 e6 10.Re1 Nd6 11.d5 Nb4 12.Na3N with still some advantage for white.

Further my old analysis indicate that after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qf5 8.0-0 0-0-0 9.d5 Nb4 10.a3 Nd3 11.Be3 e5 12.Nc3 Bd6 13.Nb5N (Now with more stronger hardware and software, probably Nh4! is even stronger) a6 14.Nxd6+ Rxd6 15.Rad1 and white has the advantage.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #17 - 10/05/11 at 07:09:33
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MNb wrote on 10/05/11 at 00:47:34:
SWJediknight wrote on 10/04/11 at 14:46:11:
The main "killjoy" line for White, to my knowledge, is 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2!?

Is 4...c6 unplayable? If no, 4.Bb5+ is certainly no killjoy.
Thanks; I'll have another look at that 6...Nc6 stuff.
7...Qe4 and 9...Qf5 doesn't feel good though; I have rather conservative opinions on the value of tempi.
That De los Reyes-Cross game was quite low rated. A priori I'm not convinced that White's play was optimal, to say it friendly. And giving my opponent the chance to get a huge opening advantage actually does kill my joy.

I think 4...c6 is playable though I never had the guts to play it.  Undecided I ran through my corr.database and found that in fact this 4...c6 gambit scored very well. The only problem is that not many good corr. players played it so to see where are the main drawbacks. As long as I can figure there are two critical positions after 4...c6. The first one is after 4.dxc6 Nxc6 with Qd8-b6 intention.. And the second one is after 4.dxc6 Qa5 5.Nc3 Nxc6. Imho, I don't think black has sufficient compensation. Most of the first players push f2-f3 and go into trouble. Some examples:



I for one think that the simple 7. Nf3 (after 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. Bb5 c6 5. dxc6 Qa5 6. Nc3 Nxc6) is best and white has his +=. For example 7...Ne4 (or 7...Nd5) 8. Qd3 Nxc3 9. bxc3 Bxf3 10. gxf3 e6 (10...Rd8 is not a threat because black has not castled) 11. 0-0 and white is definitely better.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #16 - 10/05/11 at 00:47:34
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SWJediknight wrote on 10/04/11 at 14:46:11:
The main "killjoy" line for White, to my knowledge, is 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2!?

Is 4...c6 unplayable? If no, 4.Bb5+ is certainly no killjoy.
Thanks; I'll have another look at that 6...Nc6 stuff.
7...Qe4 and 9...Qf5 doesn't feel good though; I have rather conservative opinions on the value of tempi.
That De los Reyes-Cross game was quite low rated. A priori I'm not convinced that White's play was optimal, to say it friendly. And giving my opponent the chance to get a huge opening advantage actually does kill my joy.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #15 - 10/04/11 at 21:26:11
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SWJediknight wrote on 10/04/11 at 14:46:11:
I've played this 6...Nc6 setup for Black quite a bit, with mixed results but the resulting games are usually a lot of fun.

The main "killjoy" line for White, to my knowledge, is 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2!?, discussed at this old thread:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1225852459/0#0

The aim is to push Black into an unfavourable version of the Caro-Kann setup with ...c6, ...e6, ...Be7, ...Bf5 and ...0-0, when White has a small but lasting edge provided that he/she avoids any ...Nb4 tricks.

Black has nothing better than 5...Bxe2 when White can choose between 6.Qxe2 and 6.Nxe2.  After failing to make an "0-0-0 against everything" plan work (White's queenside expansion is too rapid in some lines) I managed to find some non-compliant lines for Black over at this thread, involving ...Bd6 and retaining the option of castling on either side depending on White's response:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1234383922
Whether they are any good is still open to question, though Black seems to get a fair amount of counterplay.

I've read the old threads you mention through and through. And I can say that I agree with you and the posts of the other members of the forum in these threads almost 95%. White definitely has some edge in this setup with Bb5-e2 & Qxe2 (Nxe2).. The second player has to be careful (as usual in Scandinavian defence).. And I've seen one of my heroes, Evgeny Ermenkov defending the black side (backing me) in one analysis after a game I played in this variation as a second player in an open tournament. ...And then..I was amazed how little I knew about the good playing in this c6-e6 against d4-c4 pawn formation setup..  Cheesy
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #14 - 10/04/11 at 14:46:11
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I've played this 6...Nc6 setup for Black quite a bit, with mixed results but the resulting games are usually a lot of fun.

The main "killjoy" line for White, to my knowledge, is 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2!?, discussed at this old thread:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1225852459/0#0

The aim is to push Black into an unfavourable version of the Caro-Kann setup with ...c6, ...e6, ...Be7, ...Bf5 and ...0-0, when White has a small but lasting edge provided that he/she avoids any ...Nb4 tricks.

Black has nothing better than 5...Bxe2 when White can choose between 6.Qxe2 and 6.Nxe2.  After failing to make an "0-0-0 against everything" plan work (White's queenside expansion is too rapid in some lines) I managed to find some non-compliant lines for Black over at this thread, involving ...Bd6 and retaining the option of castling on either side depending on White's response:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1234383922
Whether they are any good is still open to question, though Black seems to get a fair amount of counterplay.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #13 - 10/04/11 at 10:40:09
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brabo wrote on 10/04/11 at 09:22:47:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 (This is part of my repertoire) Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qf5 8.0-0 0-0-0 9.d5 Nb4 10.a3 (I played this already 3 times in official games and many times on the internet.) Nc2 (Nd3 is better but doesn't fully equalise either) 11.Ra2 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Qxb1 13.b4 e6 (A blunder but I believe blacks position is already beyond repair) 14.Rc2 and this was how my last official game ended in this line. Yes the opponent wasn't strong. Neverthless it is instructive.

Absolutely. Black has to be very cautious when playing this. There are several improvements though. In corr.chess 7... Qe4!? achieves equality:




...or even win:



10...Nd3!? which you mention is demonstrated in:


Edit: Hence this setup for black is playable.. The problem is that...one step aside..and you're dead!  Lips Sealed
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #12 - 10/04/11 at 09:22:47
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1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 (This is part of my repertoire) Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.c4 Qf5 8.0-0 0-0-0 9.d5 Nb4 10.a3 (I played this already 3 times in official games and many times on the internet.) Nc2 (Nd3 is better but doesn't fully equalise either) 11.Ra2 Nd4 12.Nxd4 Qxb1 13.b4 e6 (A blunder but I believe blacks position is already beyond repair) 14.Rc2 and this was how my last official game ended in this line. Yes the opponent wasn't strong. Neverthless it is instructive.
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #11 - 10/04/11 at 07:02:24
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MNb wrote on 10/03/11 at 16:56:02:
I find 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 troublesome. Black's play seems to slow that he can permit castling Queenside. After say 6...e6 7.c4 Qf5 8.O-O Be7 9.Nc3 Nc6 I wonder if the Caro-Kann isn't just more interesting. And even castling Queenside doesn't always spice things up: 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.d5 Nb4 10.O-O O-O-O 11.dxe6 Nc2 12.Rb1 fxe6 13.Bg5 Bc5 (maybe Kb8) 14.Nh4 Nd4 15.Nxf5 Nxe2+.

Well, yes...but 6...Nc6!? (instead of 6...e6) seems more active and not 'too slow'.  Wink May I show some games that impressed me?







These games just show the possible plans for black and white. I'm not pretending black is ok here. Of course, white has more chances for a win in this setup. But I think it's far, far away from Caro-Kann..  Smiley
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #10 - 10/03/11 at 16:56:02
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I find 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 6.Nf3 troublesome. Black's play seems to slow that he can permit castling Queenside. After say 6...e6 7.c4 Qf5 8.O-O Be7 9.Nc3 Nc6 I wonder if the Caro-Kann isn't just more interesting. And even castling Queenside doesn't always spice things up: 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.d5 Nb4 10.O-O O-O-O 11.dxe6 Nc2 12.Rb1 fxe6 13.Bg5 Bc5 (maybe Kb8) 14.Nh4 Nd4 15.Nxf5 Nxe2+.
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #9 - 10/03/11 at 10:49:38
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Djy wrote on 08/25/11 at 20:04:12:
Vass wrote on 06/29/11 at 08:29:55:
Hi all!
In response to Stefan Buecker's demand I publish two of my recent correspondent games played in that fascinating variation. Both were played in Bulgaria's Individual Correspondent Semi-final Championship (BG-SF152/2011).

[Event "PF/152"]
[Site "BCCF"]
[Date "2011.06.11"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Boyko Tzonev"]
[Black "Vasil Vasilev"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B01"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. f3 Bf5 5. g4 Bg6
6. c4 e6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Nc3 exd5 9. Nxd5 Nc6 10. h4
Nb6 11. Qe2 Be7 12. Nxe7 Nxd4 13. Nc6 Nxe2 14.
Nxd8 Nxg1 15. Nxb7 Nxf3 16. Kf2 Ne5 17. Bf4 f6 18.
gxf6 gxf6 19. Re1 Nbd7 20. Rh3 Bf5 21. Ra3 O-O 22.
b4 Kh8 23. b5 Rg8 24. Bg3 Ng4 25. Kg1 Rg7 26. c5
Nh6 27. c6 Ne5 28. Kf2 Be6 29. Nc5 Nhg4 30. Kg1
Bd5 31. Rd1 Nf3 32. Kg2 Nd2 33. Kh3 Nxf1 34. Rxf1
Re8 35. Rxa7 h5 36. Nd7 Re3 37. Ra8 Kh7 38. Rg1
Nf2 39. Kh2 Ng4 40. Kh3 Nf2 41. Kh2 Ng4 42. Kh3 1/2-1/2
Wink

16.-Nd4 instead of 16.-Ne5 seem to be playable too

Michiel Wind's analysis in Kaissiber 32, p. 30, confirms Vass' assessment: "16...Nd4 17.h5 Bf5 18.Bf4 Rb8 19.Bg2 Ne6 (or 19...Nxc4 20.Rh4 Nc2 21.Rg1 Rc8 22.b3) 20.Be3 0-0 21.b3 f6 22.gxf6 Rxf6 23.Kg3 +/-, and due to his bishop pair White is clearly better."
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #8 - 08/31/11 at 14:02:25
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Yeah, it was an option during the game.. But finally I decided to try 16... Ne5
Edit: In fact, the first comp lines are not always the best. In correspondence chess there's always "a feeling" that the engines can't understand. For example, in this exact position the pressure of the bishops' pair can become enormous if black is not aware of it. So black has to be more precise. As we say in correspondence chess - always prolong the lines!..  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #7 - 08/25/11 at 20:04:12
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Vass wrote on 06/29/11 at 08:29:55:
Hi all!
In response to Stefan Buecker's demand I publish two of my recent correspondent games played in that fascinating variation. Both were played in Bulgaria's Individual Correspondent Semi-final Championship (BG-SF152/2011).

[Event "PF/152"]
[Site "BCCF"]
[Date "2011.06.11"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Boyko Tzonev"]
[Black "Vasil Vasilev"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B01"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. f3 Bf5 5. g4 Bg6
6. c4 e6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Nc3 exd5 9. Nxd5 Nc6 10. h4
Nb6 11. Qe2 Be7 12. Nxe7 Nxd4 13. Nc6 Nxe2 14.
Nxd8 Nxg1 15. Nxb7 Nxf3 16. Kf2 Ne5 17. Bf4 f6 18.
gxf6 gxf6 19. Re1 Nbd7 20. Rh3 Bf5 21. Ra3 O-O 22.
b4 Kh8 23. b5 Rg8 24. Bg3 Ng4 25. Kg1 Rg7 26. c5
Nh6 27. c6 Ne5 28. Kf2 Be6 29. Nc5 Nhg4 30. Kg1
Bd5 31. Rd1 Nf3 32. Kg2 Nd2 33. Kh3 Nxf1 34. Rxf1
Re8 35. Rxa7 h5 36. Nd7 Re3 37. Ra8 Kh7 38. Rg1
Nf2 39. Kh2 Ng4 40. Kh3 Nf2 41. Kh2 Ng4 42. Kh3 1/2-1/2
Wink

16.-Nd4 instead of 16.-Ne5 seem to be playable too
  

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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #6 - 07/01/11 at 23:28:36
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Hi SWJedi! It's evident you've spent a lot of time analysing these lines. I can say that from the right evaluation of this variation of Portuguese (4.f3 and 5.g4) may depend all the system. We all know this is a 'good' system for OTB games, but is it sound for correspondent ones?! It seems all that black can achieve is draw. And still I'm digging..  Undecided
Just to throw a line: 10.... Bd6 11.Ne2 ('with attack') 11... Ne7 12. h5 (12. Nxe7?! Qxe7 13. Kf2 0-0-0! 14. Bh3 Kb8! 15. h5 Bxh5 16. Bxd7 Bxf3 17. Kxf3 Qxd7 and God help the white king!) 12.... Bf5 13. Ne3 c5 14. d5 Qc7 15. Nxf5 Nxf5 16. Bh3 Ng3 17. Bxd7 Kxd7 18. Nxg3 Bxg3+ 19. Kf1 Rae8 20. Bd2 Qe5 21. Rg1 Bf4 22. Bc3 Qf5 with a very good compensation for the pawn.. I don't pretend it's full analysis - it just shows that Portuguese is alive, again..  Wink
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #5 - 07/01/11 at 13:32:47
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Looking over my old games with the gambit on FICS.org, I have to correct some earlier statements of mine: I did face 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 once, prior to knowing about the Kaissiber analysis, but White failed to find the correct follow-up (5...Bg6 6.Bb5+ Nbd7 7.Ne2 was the game continuation).  As an aside, I rather suspect that Boyko Tzonev may have been aware of Wind's analysis in Kaissiber 32.

The ending following 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4 still looks considerably better for White to me, in spite of the 19...Nbd7, but Black can probably indeed hold a draw.  In a serious game if I faced an opponent in the critical line I would probably deviate with 7...Bd6, as I think White has more chances to go wrong there OTB, but I doubt that it would work in a correspondence game- in particular Black is practically forced to sac a piece for dubious compensation after 8.Qa4+ c6 9.c5 (Stefan Buecker suggested 8.Nge2 Nxd5 9.cxd5 Qh4+ in an earlier thread, which also gives an insufficient attack for a piece, in that line 8...0-0 9.h4 h6 may be just about playable but still better for White)

The other significant deviation from the inferior ending is 10...Bd6, when Wind gave 11.Ne2 "with attack"- it appears that Black's only way to escape this attack is to sac a piece on c5, e.g. 11...Nb6 12.h5 Bf5 13.Ne3 Qxg5 14.Kf2! Be6 15.c5 Bxc5 16.dxc5 Qxc5 when I don't think Black has quite enough.

In the second line (4.f3 Bf5 5.Bb5+ Nbd7 6.c4 e6 7.dxe6) I have had some experiments with 7...dxe6 8.Ne2 c6 9.Ba4, and then perhaps 9...Qa5+ 10.Bd2 Qa6 11.Nbc3 0-0-0 or 9...Qc7 10.Nbc3 Bd6 11.Bc2 0-0-0.  I don't think it's necessarily an improvement on the 7...Bxe6 line (both look a little better for White to me) but it illustrates that Black has playable alternatives in that variation.

Anyway, I agree with the consensus of the last few posts, theoretically dodgy but a lot of fun!
« Last Edit: 07/01/11 at 15:49:58 by SWJediknight »  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #4 - 06/30/11 at 21:26:12
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Great news, Gabriel!
Playing this is just as he says: "you are guaranteed to have a lot of fun".
  
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #3 - 06/30/11 at 07:20:52
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Dear Vass and Stefan,

Cannot offer any concrete analysis but thought I should point you to a fellow Aussie, GM David Smerdon, currently playing in the Commonwealth Chess Champs in SA (with GM Nigel Short and GM Gawain Jones et al). David was interviewed on a blog (here: http://commonwealthchess.blogspot.com/2011/06/day-3-of-commonwealth-dave-smerdon...) and this what he has to say about the Portugese Var:
Quote:
MER:- Any chess related book projects for you?
DS:- Possibly a book on the Portuguese variation of the Scandinavian (1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4)
I'm the strongest player in the world who plays it, not really because I am that strong but because no other grandmasters this strength would touch it. Its going to be the first honest opening book ever written, basically stating upfront that the variation is opening is rubbish, but you are guaranteed to have a lot of fun, and will conclude the game in 30 moves either way.


Maybe Stefan, you should get him to write for Kassiber ...... David is heading to Amsterdam in the near future to study fro a MA (Econs) and will be in Europe for a while yet. Check out the interview or David's own blog: http://www.davidsmerdon.com/
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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Vass
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #2 - 06/29/11 at 14:05:02
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Congrats to Mr Wind! I'm amazed he entered so deep in his analysis. It is evident he found all the white possibilities to make the life of the second player harder.. And, as I am experienced in all of these f3 and g4 lines, I expected something that would be of no use for me.
Anyway, I still believe that black has no more than a draw if white is consistent in looking for best moves.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
Reply #1 - 06/29/11 at 11:27:44
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Thank you very much for these fine games. You can e-mail me (redaktion@kaissiber.de) your full mail adress (the real one!), and I'll send you Kais. # 32 for free.

Your first game with Boyko Tzonev reached this position after 19.Re1:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

Michiel Wind's main line in Kais. #32 (published in 2008), p. 30, continued: 19...0-0 20.h5 Bd3 21.Rg1+ Kh8 22.b3 Bxf1 23.Rexf1 Nbd7, with the conclusion: "Weiß steht klar besser, wenn es auch nicht sicher ist, ob dies in einen Sieg umgemünzt werden kann." [translation: +/-, but maybe still a draw]. He added the sample line 24.Rd1 Rae8 25.Rd5 Re7 26.Rg3 Rg8 27.Rxg8+ Kxg8 28.Ra5 (and a few more moves).

Your solution 19...Nbd7 is an important alternative. Maybe 27.Bg2 (instead of 27.c6) came into consideration, e.g. 27...Rag8 28.Ree3 Ng4 29.Rec3 Nge5 30.Bd5 Bd3 31.Bxg8 Rxg3+ 32.Kh2 Rxg8 33.Rxd3 Nxd3 34.Rxd3 Ne5 35.Rg3.

Later in the game White could try 31.Bg2!? (instead of 31.Rd1) 31...Bc4 32.b6 cxb6 33.Nd7 Nxd7 34.cxd7 Rag8 35.Bc6 Ne5 36.Rxe5 fxe5 37.Kh2 Re7 38.Ra4 b5 39.Rxa7 Rd8 40.h5, but 40...Be6 followed by returning the exchange should be OK for a draw.

Anyway, you are surely right: not a variation which White will find in an OTB game without preparation.
  
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Scandinavian Portuguese...again!?
06/29/11 at 08:29:55
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Hi all!
In response to Stefan Buecker's demand I publish two of my recent correspondent games played in that fascinating variation. Both were played in Bulgaria's Individual Correspondent Semi-final Championship (BG-SF152/2011).

[Event "PF/152"]
[Site "BCCF"]
[Date "2011.06.11"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Boyko Tzonev"]
[Black "Vasil Vasilev"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B01"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. f3 Bf5 5. g4 Bg6
6. c4 e6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Nc3 exd5 9. Nxd5 Nc6 10. h4
Nb6 11. Qe2 Be7 12. Nxe7 Nxd4 13. Nc6 Nxe2 14.
Nxd8 Nxg1 15. Nxb7 Nxf3 16. Kf2 Ne5 17. Bf4 f6 18.
gxf6 gxf6 19. Re1 Nbd7 20. Rh3 Bf5 21. Ra3 O-O 22.
b4 Kh8 23. b5 Rg8 24. Bg3 Ng4 25. Kg1 Rg7 26. c5
Nh6 27. c6 Ne5 28. Kf2 Be6 29. Nc5 Nhg4 30. Kg1
Bd5 31. Rd1 Nf3 32. Kg2 Nd2 33. Kh3 Nxf1 34. Rxf1
Re8 35. Rxa7 h5 36. Nd7 Re3 37. Ra8 Kh7 38. Rg1
Nf2 39. Kh2 Ng4 40. Kh3 Nf2 41. Kh2 Ng4 42. Kh3 1/2-1/2

[Event "PF/152"]
[Site "BCCF"]
[Date "2011.04.29"]
[White "Toshko Kirkov"]
[Black "Vasil Vasilev"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B01"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. f3 Bf5 5. Bb5+ Nbd7 6. c4 e6 7. dxe6 Bxe6 8. Nc3 c6 9. d5 cxb5 10. dxe6 fxe6 11. cxb5 Bc5 12. Qe2 O-O 13. Nh3 Qb6 14. Nf2 a6 15. bxa6 Qxa6 16. Qxa6 Rxa6 17. Nd3 Nd5 18. Nxc5 Nxc5 19. O-O Nxc3 20. bxc3 Nb3 21. Rb1 Nxc1 22. Rfxc1 Rxa2 23. Rd1 Rb8 24. Rb6 Rc2 25. h4 Rxc3 26. Rxe6 Rc4 27. Re7 Rxh4 28. Rdd7 g6 29. g3 Rh6 30. g4 b5 31. Rg7+ Kh8 32. Kg2 b4 33. Rb7 Rxb7 34. Rxb7 g5 35. Rxb4 Rf6 36. Rb5 h6 37. Rb7 Kg8 38. Kf2 Rf7 39. Rb2 Kg7
1/2-1/2

Imho, these are two of the sharpest sub-variations of Portuguese that I find difficult to play as a second player.
I admit I never had chances for a win in these games because my opponents knew how to play this variation and one of them has more than 30 experience in correspondent chess. I doubt if these were OTB games that my opponents would have managed to cope with it..  Wink
In addition, I publish another one, from the same tournament, in which my opponent wasn't fully prepared and tried to sacrifice the d4-pawn for an attack against my long castling.

[Event "PF/152"]
[Site "BCCF"]
[Date "2011.06.08"]
[White "Raicho Veselinov"]
[Black "Vasil Vasilev"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B01"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nf3 Qxd5 4. d4 Bg4 5. Be2
Nc6 6. c4 Qf5 7. O-O O-O-O 8. Nc3 Bxf3 9. Bxf3
Nxd4 10. Bd5 Nxd5 11. Qxd4 Nxc3 12. Qxc3 e6 13.
Be3 Rd3 14. Qc2 a6 15. Qa4 Be7 16. b4 Rhd8 17.
Rac1 g5 18. Rfe1 h5 19. b5 Ra3 20. Qc2 Qxc2 21.
Rxc2 g4 22. g3 Rdd3 23. h3 Rdc3 24. Rec1 Bb4 25.
Rxc3 Rxc3 26. Rxc3 Bxc3 27. a4 axb5 28. axb5 Kd7
29. f3 e5 30. fxg4 hxg4 31. hxg4 Bd4 32. Kf2 Kd6
33. Ke2 Kc5 34. Kd3 Bxe3 35. 0-1

Regretfully, I never read Michiel Wind's analysis in Kaissiber and can't comment his writings. Though I hope I can help the 'Portuguese lovers' with these games somehow.  Wink
  
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