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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC (Read 47287 times)
Keano
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #66 - 01/09/12 at 16:22:28
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I've always assumed that the committee verdict was a hatchet job out to get the Rybka programmer - you just have to see the wording of it to see that. Completely over the top.
  
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tp2205
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #65 - 01/08/12 at 14:50:40
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TopNotch wrote on 01/07/12 at 19:58:49:
Supposing for a moment Rajlich copied wholesale game playing code from fruit and Crafty, why then is/was Rybka so much stronger than those and every other engine available. It just does not add up, and the mere fact that Rajlich chose not to answer his accusers is not an admission of or proof of guilt.


It adds up quite easily. If I can use well-tested mature code for a substantial part of my program then I have more time to spend on other parts. Think "standing on the shoulders of Giants."

I also looked at the analysis of the disassembled rybka code and the comparison to Fruit and Crafty. If this would be a matter of two non-chess-related commercial programs then I don't think Rybka would have much of a chance in a court case. Having independently developed identical logical code is not very likely but possible. Having identical illogical code is extremely unlikely. So while the extent to which code was copied will remain unclear (unless Rybka's source code will be made public) the fact that a non-trivial amount of code was copied is pretty much obvious.
  
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #64 - 01/08/12 at 01:19:00
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fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 11:07:39:
Good. Yes, I heard about the bug that appeared.

I'll wait for the reply to the C articles, thanks.


First, an introduction letter from David:

[quote="David Levy"]

Subject: The ICGA's rebuttal to Soren Riis's article on Chessbase.com re
the Rybka scandal


This week Dr Soren Riis posted a four part article on Chessbase.com in a
somewhat belated attempt to defend Vasik Rajlich. Regular readers will
recall that Rajlich's actions led the International Computer Games
Association (ICGA) to find him guilty of breaking a crucial tournament rule,
as a result of which the chess program Rybka was stripped of its World
Computer Chess Champion titles and Rajlich was banned for life from ICGA
events.



Dr Riis gave his article a title to suggest that a miscarriage of justice
has taken place. The ICGA now responds with two rebuttal articles, one by
myself (as President of the ICGA) concerning some of the legalistic points
raised by Riis's article, and a robust detailed and thorough technical
rebuttal by Mark Watkins.


Everyone interested in the Rybka scandal should read both of these
rebuttals and then decide for themselves who and what they believe - Dr Riis
or the ICGA's investigation report.


Dr David Levy
President - ICGA

[/quote]

Here are two links, to read David's direct analysis, click the following link:
http://www.harveywilliamson.com/ICGA/DL_Rebuttal_to_Riis_article.January7th2012....

To read Mark Watkin's point-by-point evisceration of Soren Riis' article, click the following link:
http://harveywilliamson.com/ICGA/Riis3.pdf
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #63 - 01/07/12 at 23:34:23
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TopNotch wrote on 01/07/12 at 19:58:49:
Supposing for a moment Rajlich copied wholesale game playing code from fruit and Crafty, why then is/was Rybka so much stronger than those and every other engine available.


Does he mean with source code available? It's in no way "so much stronger" than Houdini. A pretty moot argument in any case, investing a lot of time and money in augmenting an existing engine so that it performs better is hardly stretching the limits of the imagination. His other arguments seem ad hominem to me. The professor could have written that many posts because it's an important issue, not because he's part of a big conspiracy. It does seem like honorable behaviour if he's doing what he believes in, maybe that's not "perfectly normal" anymore...?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #62 - 01/07/12 at 19:58:49
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If just half of the information given in the Riis article is accurate than the case and verdict gainst Rajlich is indeed a travesty of justice. Really, a life ban imposed by peers with a vested interest in seeing Rajlich out of the way, clearly something stinks in Denmark.

Supposing for a moment Rajlich copied wholesale game playing code from fruit and Crafty, why then is/was Rybka so much stronger than those and every other engine available. It just does not add up, and the mere fact that Rajlich chose not to answer his accusers is not an admission of or proof of guilt.

The over the top life ban shows to any impartial observer that the action against Rajlich seems motivated more by jealousy, envy and bruised egos than the pursuit of justice.

I have seen this kind of thing all too often in other spheres of life, and it troubles me greatly.

Here is a short excerpt from the Riis article on chessbase:

And finally, on some level Dr. Hyatt in particular must have known that for Rajlich to fight the charges would degenerate into an unseemly quarrel where the mild-mannered Rajlich would be assailed by an unending hail of accusations, insults and sophistries.

I can say this because I and others have publicly defended Rajlich, and that is exactly what has happened over the course of thousands of Dr. Hyatt’s posts. In my capacity as Rybka forum moderator I have access to posting statistics. The chart below speaks for itself. Four months of relentless attacks on Rajlich’s own website!

These observations are not personal; they are simply factual evidence of the singular intensity and apparent motivation of Rajlich’s chief accuser. Imagine how long it would take you to write forty lucid forum posts in one day. Dr. Hyatt achieved this stupendous level of vitriol no fewer than 26 times in a four month span, peaking at 71 posts. Yet, Dr. Hyatt believes this is perfectly normal behavior for an associate professor of computer science and is not a relevant datum. I mention it because I think the reading public may have justifiable concern about Dr. Hyatt’s excessive devotion to the Rajlich-is-Guilty crusade.

Draw your own conclusions.

Tops
  

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fling
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #61 - 01/07/12 at 11:07:39
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Good. Yes, I heard about the bug that appeared.

I'll wait for the reply to the C articles, thanks.
  
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #60 - 01/07/12 at 09:25:58
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fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 09:10:42:
Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 08:17:14:
fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:17:33:
Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:06:03:
fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


CB fail to note that the person who writes the article is a Rybka Forum Moderator.


Yes, I noticed that (since he mentions it himself in part 4), that is true. Still, I guess he also has the right to present the case.

I have no idea what exactly happened, I have just read what's posted here and at CB.


A telling piece of evidence is that Ken Thompson looked at the available data and says that there is Fruit in Rybka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Thompson


In what way, as in algorithms, or as in code, or as something else?


Read the ICGA report. We are certainly not talking about just ideas as using ideas is fine. There are even some bugs from Fruit and Crafty that appear in Rybka. I wonder how they got there?

Have a read of this http://www.open-chess.org/download/file.php?id=489

A reply to the CB article will also be published soon.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #59 - 01/07/12 at 09:10:42
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Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 08:17:14:
fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:17:33:
Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:06:03:
fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


CB fail to note that the person who writes the article is a Rybka Forum Moderator.


Yes, I noticed that (since he mentions it himself in part 4), that is true. Still, I guess he also has the right to present the case.

I have no idea what exactly happened, I have just read what's posted here and at CB.


A telling piece of evidence is that Ken Thompson looked at the available data and says that there is Fruit in Rybka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Thompson


In what way, as in algorithms, or as in code, or as something else?
  
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #58 - 01/07/12 at 08:17:14
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fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:17:33:
Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:06:03:
fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


CB fail to note that the person who writes the article is a Rybka Forum Moderator.


Yes, I noticed that (since he mentions it himself in part 4), that is true. Still, I guess he also has the right to present the case.

I have no idea what exactly happened, I have just read what's posted here and at CB.


A telling piece of evidence is that Ken Thompson looked at the available data and says that there is Fruit in Rybka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Thompson
  
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fling
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #57 - 01/07/12 at 00:17:33
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Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:06:03:
fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


CB fail to note that the person who writes the article is a Rybka Forum Moderator.


Yes, I noticed that (since he mentions it himself in part 4), that is true. Still, I guess he also has the right to present the case.

I have no idea what exactly happened, I have just read what's posted here and at CB.
  
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #56 - 01/07/12 at 00:06:03
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fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


CB fail to note that the person who writes the article is a Rybka Forum Moderator.
  
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fling
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #55 - 01/06/12 at 20:41:17
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SWJediknight wrote on 01/06/12 at 18:40:45:
I'm waitting for "part 2" personally- I think part 1 leaves us hanging somewhat.
Personally I'm not 100% convinced that Rybka is really guilty of outright plagiarism, but I'm also aware that Chessbase have vested interests, so I await part 2 with interest.


Well, there are four parts published. But you mean there should be something else too?
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #54 - 01/06/12 at 20:02:25
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Re: Fischer Random--what if the engine creator devises opening books for all 960 positions?
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #53 - 01/06/12 at 18:40:45
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I'm waitting for "part 2" personally- I think part 1 leaves us hanging somewhat.
Personally I'm not 100% convinced that Rybka is really guilty of outright plagiarism, but I'm also aware that Chessbase have vested interests, so I await part 2 with interest.

Re. the profit seeking model, it can actually work both ways.  There are of course many examples of where someone charging for something has indeed resulted in increased motivation to develop and improve a product- but there are also others where we end up with an element of minimum service for maximum profit.
  
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fling
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #52 - 01/06/12 at 17:45:01
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fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


Maybe not interesting at all?
  
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