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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC (Read 33005 times)
Tullius
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #81 - 10/04/13 at 12:34:48
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Ed Schroeders point of view is already known and so his arguments are not new when you have followed computer forums. A long time ago they have already seen very their emotional discussions.

What Schroeder does not mention is that the programmer of Rybka did not defend himself against the accusation and did in the judicial proceedings an extremly poor job or got terrible advice.

Before the court you have a right to keep your silence but the other side of the coin is that you can have then no chance for a testimony. And when you or you lawyer want challenge any expertise you have to do it in the court and before the judgement is announced and even that was not done.

Moaning after that is wasting time.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #80 - 10/04/13 at 06:45:39
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/04/13 at 00:35:20:
I've just read an interesting article about Rybka entitled "greatest injustice perpetrated in computer chess history" which pretty much speaks for itself.
You can see it here: http://www.chessvibes.com/rybka-case-greatest-injustice-perpetrated-in-computer-...


Thank you, Tony!
Great article, indeed.
As we all know, the truth has always two sides, ...at least.
Nobody would argue that Vasik R. & Robert H. are great in their profession, I suppose. They both started to develop their engines stepping on the hard rocks of  such exceptional open-source engines as Fruit & Robbolito, but then greatly improved them. As long as I know, it's a matter of question about the legal rights, licenses and similar stuff.. Anyway, what they did is already written in chess history!  Wink
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #79 - 10/04/13 at 00:35:20
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I've just read an interesting article about Rybka entitled "greatest injustice perpetrated in computer chess history" which pretty much speaks for itself.
You can see it here: http://www.chessvibes.com/rybka-case-greatest-injustice-perpetrated-in-computer-...
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #78 - 02/21/12 at 16:11:10
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Chessbase dragging this can of worms up again with a David Levy interview and some disagreement to follow, to be honest I have lost any interest in it as I suspect most chess fans have, but for the specialized group it involves it obviously will fester on.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #77 - 01/13/12 at 23:46:23
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We are happy to agree on a trusted 3rd party for him to submit his code to but he will not do this.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #76 - 01/13/12 at 23:22:34
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SWJediknight wrote on 01/10/12 at 16:13:50:
Having read the arguments and counter-arguments in full, I think the case against Rybka is very strong (maybe not 100% certainty, but at least 99%).  The main points from the Watkins report that led me to this stance are:
Quote:
At any rate, one concludes that the Rybka/Fruit data point was an outlier at 6-8 standard deviations in a pool of around 30 comparisons, or more than a 1 in a million chance of occurring at random.

Quote:
The Fruit code also includes some idiosyncratic redundancies, which curiously re-appear in Rybka.

The above looks like pretty damning evidence to me.  I could understand people independently coming up with the same ideas, and drawing inspiration from each others' ideas to help shape their own, but both having the same redundant pieces of code strikes me as highly unlikely to be coincidence.

Given the terms of the GPL a legitimate Fruit-derived engine would have to be free, plus credit Fruit for helping out with some of the code.


Well, as I have understood it, the problem is that nobody has the source code for examination. If Rybka is based on many of the same ideas in the evaluation as Fruit, which seemed to be the revolutionary part, it will maybe also show up together in the tree. It doesn't mean that they are based on the same code, as I understood it, just that they evaluate positions similarly.

It is pretty weird that the same bugs occur, but I have no knowledge of how this could or couldn't happen if the code is not similar (I haven't yet seen what bug it is, for that matter).

This discussion would not be if Rajlich could actually show the code to somebody. But that won't happen, I guess, unfortunately  Angry
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #75 - 01/13/12 at 23:11:05
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/10/12 at 10:13:22:
I'm curious to know the human background to this whole affair. Do all the different programmers get on well with each other, or is there a lot of excessive rivalry? Are there different groups who work together, but avoid other groups? Did the fact that Rybka was the undisputed number 1 for so long (and presumably was the most successful commercially?!) create a lot of tension (jealousy?!) with its rivals? Undecided
Perhaps Harvey can shed some light on this as he has been involved with Hiarcs for so long, and must know the environment very well.


Hi Tony,

An interesting question. I have attended several of these events and i must say that I have never had a problem with anyone at an event. The atmosphere is always very friendly and the discussions in the pub afterwards are always very friendly. The posts by the so called 'fanboys' I think would be a lot less aggressive if they had ever attended one of these events. Everybody gets on really well. people probably think I hate Vasik Rajlich after the events of the last 6 months. On a personal level I have never had an issue with him and our email exchanges have always been very friendly.

Best Wishes,
Harvey
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #74 - 01/10/12 at 16:13:50
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Having read the arguments and counter-arguments in full, I think the case against Rybka is very strong (maybe not 100% certainty, but at least 99%).  The main points from the Watkins report that led me to this stance are:
Quote:
At any rate, one concludes that the Rybka/Fruit data point was an outlier at 6-8 standard deviations in a pool of around 30 comparisons, or more than a 1 in a million chance of occurring at random.

Quote:
The Fruit code also includes some idiosyncratic redundancies, which curiously re-appear in Rybka.

The above looks like pretty damning evidence to me.  I could understand people independently coming up with the same ideas, and drawing inspiration from each others' ideas to help shape their own, but both having the same redundant pieces of code strikes me as highly unlikely to be coincidence.

Given the terms of the GPL a legitimate Fruit-derived engine would have to be free, plus credit Fruit for helping out with some of the code.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #73 - 01/10/12 at 14:28:33
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 01/10/12 at 08:35:21:
I'm not a computer specialist.


When David Levy claims that the code for the way most of the pieces (except the king) move is identical, how unusual is this? Is the code in all the programs identical for something so basic?  Is this code something special?

This is really an esoteric argument that requires some expertise even to begin to understand whether it's plagiarism.

I do not like the way Chessbase has handled this at all. They didn't report on the case until now, and their stirring defense appears to be very self-serving. If Rybka is the result of plagiarism, Rajlich deserves a ban, and probably a life-time ban. But he also deserves to be able to appeal the ruling.

Neither side has covered itself in glory on this issue. But an explanation of how code is written by other programmers, and how much of the "DNA" is unique to each program would go a long way to persuading me of the justice or injustice of the case. To use the analogy of DNA, the distinction between broccoli and cauliflower are  quite small at the genetic level. Various hybrids are patented. Yet the difference in the genetic code is largely identical to others.

Help us to understand!


I'll try. I don't believe that there are any fundamental ideas in the field which are kept secret. So these can certainly be used freely.

But what almost certainly has happened was cutting and pasting parts of fruit and crafty to simplify the task of writing Rybka (there seem to have been some later attempts to modify the cut and pasted code to hide this). This is
  • forbidden by the licenses under which these programs are published
  • forbidden by the rules of the WCCC
  • just plain nasty as any serious programmer will tell you. You might have spent years trying to figure out how to implement some ideas (and how to implement them well) and then somebody copies them claims them for him/herself.   


The whole idea behind these licenses is that you are willing to give other people a headstart into whatever your program is about because you are interested in progress in your field. The only requirement is that certain uses of your code (distribution, e.g. selling) require that modification or derivatives must be made public as well so that everyone can profit from new ideas. 

Now by showing to a select few programmers (which are sworn to secrecy etc.) the source code of the Rybka versions in question it would have been pretty easy to refute any claim that such cutting-and-pasting took place. In case of ridiculous claims that copying took place you might not feel like doing that, but here there is pretty condemning analysis as well as extremely well respected people on the committee (Ken Thompson). Now the claim that the old source code no longer exists is really hard to belief. Most programmers I know use things like version control (easy to restore any version) and have multiple copies of any code they wrote (especially a successful commercial product) stored all over the place.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #72 - 01/10/12 at 13:13:05
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RdC wrote on 01/10/12 at 11:37:38:
There may be analogies to the book or article writing process. You are writing about a variation or position covered extensively and correctly by a previous author. To what extent is it legitimate to copy or paraphrase the previous analysis? Are you required to quote the previous source? Would it make a difference if you wee entering a competition for the "best" analysis.


The source code in question was covered by a license which essentially says:
1) if you use it just for yourself do whatever you want with it.
2) if you distribute it or programs based on it these programs *must* be covered by the same license and the modified source code *must* also be made available.

[edit: this is the license fruit used. Crafty's license is non-standard but prohibits taking the program in part or as a whole and entering tournaments (under a new name) without explicit permission from the authors]

Quote:
From a practical user's point of view, you want the strongest chess engine and programmers griping about whether the program is "original" is a theological debate of little practical interest.


This is irrelevant. If I publish a chess book entitled The "Lativian Gambit still lives" which is just a copy of the original with a few corrections (this is just hypothetically speaking, we know of course none are needed) and publish it then the users might like the added value but I suspect the original author would have a problem with that (especially if I would deny that I copied the book but make lots of money from it).

Quote:
The common ground appears to be that the Rybka team read the source code of Fruit and other programs and paraphrased the ideas.


The analysis of the disassembled code and the occurrence of identical bugs/identical illogical behaviour shows quite convincingly that source code must have been copied (as in cut and paste). If the ideas would have been reimplemented then identical bugs/illogical behaviour could not be observed.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #71 - 01/10/12 at 11:37:38
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There may be analogies to the book or article writing process. You are writing about a variation or position covered extensively and correctly by a previous author. To what extent is it legitimate to copy or paraphrase the previous analysis? Are you required to quote the previous source? Would it make a difference if you wee entering a competition for the "best" analysis.

From a practical user's point of view, you want the strongest chess engine and programmers griping about whether the program is "original" is a theological debate of little practical interest.

The common ground appears to be that the Rybka team read the source code of Fruit and other programs and paraphrased the ideas. One of the disputes is whether this should have been disclosed as part of the entry conditions for the computer world championship and whether such a hybrid should have been allowed to enter even if it was, as demonstrated by results, the then strongest chess engine.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #70 - 01/10/12 at 10:13:22
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I'm curious to know the human background to this whole affair. Do all the different programmers get on well with each other, or is there a lot of excessive rivalry? Are there different groups who work together, but avoid other groups? Did the fact that Rybka was the undisputed number 1 for so long (and presumably was the most successful commercially?!) create a lot of tension (jealousy?!) with its rivals? Undecided
Perhaps Harvey can shed some light on this as he has been involved with Hiarcs for so long, and must know the environment very well.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #69 - 01/10/12 at 09:42:14
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 01/10/12 at 08:35:21:
Help us to understand!


If Bananas share 70% of their generic code with humans, then it is surely them that are behind the Fruit copying conspiracy  Shocked
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #68 - 01/10/12 at 08:35:21
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I'm not a computer specialist.


When David Levy claims that the code for the way most of the pieces (except the king) move is identical, how unusual is this? Is the code in all the programs identical for something so basic?  Is this code something special?

This is really an esoteric argument that requires some expertise even to begin to understand whether it's plagiarism.

I do not like the way Chessbase has handled this at all. They didn't report on the case until now, and their stirring defense appears to be very self-serving. If Rybka is the result of plagiarism, Rajlich deserves a ban, and probably a life-time ban. But he also deserves to be able to appeal the ruling.

Neither side has covered itself in glory on this issue. But an explanation of how code is written by other programmers, and how much of the "DNA" is unique to each program would go a long way to persuading me of the justice or injustice of the case. To use the analogy of DNA, the distinction between broccoli and cauliflower are  quite small at the genetic level. Various hybrids are patented. Yet the difference in the genetic code is largely identical to others.

Help us to understand!
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #67 - 01/10/12 at 02:14:09
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Analysis of disassembled code is a quite technical issue. What you wind up with is a series of machine instructions, but without the clarifying variable names, or storage area names, that you would have had the same thing been written in assembly language. And of course, you have no  comments.

But I believe you could tell fairly easily if one set of disassembled code was identical to another. Just like with DNA, there are very few building blocks at the machine level. A sufficiently long identical sequence would be sufficient to rule out an accidental match with a fairly high degree of certainty.

So I wouldn't be so quick to condemn the conclusions of the computer scientists.

The objective strengths of the programs in question isn't relevant. Someone can be proven to be your son on the basis of DNA, and yet not be as strong a player as you are.

I understand the impulse toward scepticism where condemations are concerned, but the evaluation of the evidence in this case really requires experts.

If the verdict is just, then I must say it's ironic that the punishment comes from the computer chess arbiters. The real crime here, supposing guilt, is that the GPL was raped so that some clever thief could make a buck. And no small buck, either. I have no problem with GPL violators being drawn and quartered; I only wish that the Open Source Institute, not some glorified chess club, had been the agent of this particular person's downfall.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #66 - 01/09/12 at 16:22:28
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I've always assumed that the committee verdict was a hatchet job out to get the Rybka programmer - you just have to see the wording of it to see that. Completely over the top.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #65 - 01/08/12 at 14:50:40
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TopNotch wrote on 01/07/12 at 19:58:49:
Supposing for a moment Rajlich copied wholesale game playing code from fruit and Crafty, why then is/was Rybka so much stronger than those and every other engine available. It just does not add up, and the mere fact that Rajlich chose not to answer his accusers is not an admission of or proof of guilt.


It adds up quite easily. If I can use well-tested mature code for a substantial part of my program then I have more time to spend on other parts. Think "standing on the shoulders of Giants."

I also looked at the analysis of the disassembled rybka code and the comparison to Fruit and Crafty. If this would be a matter of two non-chess-related commercial programs then I don't think Rybka would have much of a chance in a court case. Having independently developed identical logical code is not very likely but possible. Having identical illogical code is extremely unlikely. So while the extent to which code was copied will remain unclear (unless Rybka's source code will be made public) the fact that a non-trivial amount of code was copied is pretty much obvious.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #64 - 01/08/12 at 01:19:00
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fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 11:07:39:
Good. Yes, I heard about the bug that appeared.

I'll wait for the reply to the C articles, thanks.


First, an introduction letter from David:

[quote="David Levy"]

Subject: The ICGA's rebuttal to Soren Riis's article on Chessbase.com re
the Rybka scandal


This week Dr Soren Riis posted a four part article on Chessbase.com in a
somewhat belated attempt to defend Vasik Rajlich. Regular readers will
recall that Rajlich's actions led the International Computer Games
Association (ICGA) to find him guilty of breaking a crucial tournament rule,
as a result of which the chess program Rybka was stripped of its World
Computer Chess Champion titles and Rajlich was banned for life from ICGA
events.



Dr Riis gave his article a title to suggest that a miscarriage of justice
has taken place. The ICGA now responds with two rebuttal articles, one by
myself (as President of the ICGA) concerning some of the legalistic points
raised by Riis's article, and a robust detailed and thorough technical
rebuttal by Mark Watkins.


Everyone interested in the Rybka scandal should read both of these
rebuttals and then decide for themselves who and what they believe - Dr Riis
or the ICGA's investigation report.


Dr David Levy
President - ICGA

[/quote]

Here are two links, to read David's direct analysis, click the following link:
http://www.harveywilliamson.com/ICGA/DL_Rebuttal_to_Riis_article.January7th2012....

To read Mark Watkin's point-by-point evisceration of Soren Riis' article, click the following link:
http://harveywilliamson.com/ICGA/Riis3.pdf
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #63 - 01/07/12 at 23:34:23
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TopNotch wrote on 01/07/12 at 19:58:49:
Supposing for a moment Rajlich copied wholesale game playing code from fruit and Crafty, why then is/was Rybka so much stronger than those and every other engine available.


Does he mean with source code available? It's in no way "so much stronger" than Houdini. A pretty moot argument in any case, investing a lot of time and money in augmenting an existing engine so that it performs better is hardly stretching the limits of the imagination. His other arguments seem ad hominem to me. The professor could have written that many posts because it's an important issue, not because he's part of a big conspiracy. It does seem like honorable behaviour if he's doing what he believes in, maybe that's not "perfectly normal" anymore...?
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #62 - 01/07/12 at 19:58:49
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If just half of the information given in the Riis article is accurate than the case and verdict gainst Rajlich is indeed a travesty of justice. Really, a life ban imposed by peers with a vested interest in seeing Rajlich out of the way, clearly something stinks in Denmark.

Supposing for a moment Rajlich copied wholesale game playing code from fruit and Crafty, why then is/was Rybka so much stronger than those and every other engine available. It just does not add up, and the mere fact that Rajlich chose not to answer his accusers is not an admission of or proof of guilt.

The over the top life ban shows to any impartial observer that the action against Rajlich seems motivated more by jealousy, envy and bruised egos than the pursuit of justice.

I have seen this kind of thing all too often in other spheres of life, and it troubles me greatly.

Here is a short excerpt from the Riis article on chessbase:

And finally, on some level Dr. Hyatt in particular must have known that for Rajlich to fight the charges would degenerate into an unseemly quarrel where the mild-mannered Rajlich would be assailed by an unending hail of accusations, insults and sophistries.

I can say this because I and others have publicly defended Rajlich, and that is exactly what has happened over the course of thousands of Dr. Hyatt’s posts. In my capacity as Rybka forum moderator I have access to posting statistics. The chart below speaks for itself. Four months of relentless attacks on Rajlich’s own website!

These observations are not personal; they are simply factual evidence of the singular intensity and apparent motivation of Rajlich’s chief accuser. Imagine how long it would take you to write forty lucid forum posts in one day. Dr. Hyatt achieved this stupendous level of vitriol no fewer than 26 times in a four month span, peaking at 71 posts. Yet, Dr. Hyatt believes this is perfectly normal behavior for an associate professor of computer science and is not a relevant datum. I mention it because I think the reading public may have justifiable concern about Dr. Hyatt’s excessive devotion to the Rajlich-is-Guilty crusade.

Draw your own conclusions.

Tops
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #61 - 01/07/12 at 11:07:39
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Good. Yes, I heard about the bug that appeared.

I'll wait for the reply to the C articles, thanks.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #60 - 01/07/12 at 09:25:58
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fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 09:10:42:
Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 08:17:14:
fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:17:33:
Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:06:03:
fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


CB fail to note that the person who writes the article is a Rybka Forum Moderator.


Yes, I noticed that (since he mentions it himself in part 4), that is true. Still, I guess he also has the right to present the case.

I have no idea what exactly happened, I have just read what's posted here and at CB.


A telling piece of evidence is that Ken Thompson looked at the available data and says that there is Fruit in Rybka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Thompson


In what way, as in algorithms, or as in code, or as something else?


Read the ICGA report. We are certainly not talking about just ideas as using ideas is fine. There are even some bugs from Fruit and Crafty that appear in Rybka. I wonder how they got there?

Have a read of this http://www.open-chess.org/download/file.php?id=489

A reply to the CB article will also be published soon.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #59 - 01/07/12 at 09:10:42
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Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 08:17:14:
fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:17:33:
Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:06:03:
fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


CB fail to note that the person who writes the article is a Rybka Forum Moderator.


Yes, I noticed that (since he mentions it himself in part 4), that is true. Still, I guess he also has the right to present the case.

I have no idea what exactly happened, I have just read what's posted here and at CB.


A telling piece of evidence is that Ken Thompson looked at the available data and says that there is Fruit in Rybka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Thompson


In what way, as in algorithms, or as in code, or as something else?
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #58 - 01/07/12 at 08:17:14
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fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:17:33:
Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:06:03:
fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


CB fail to note that the person who writes the article is a Rybka Forum Moderator.


Yes, I noticed that (since he mentions it himself in part 4), that is true. Still, I guess he also has the right to present the case.

I have no idea what exactly happened, I have just read what's posted here and at CB.


A telling piece of evidence is that Ken Thompson looked at the available data and says that there is Fruit in Rybka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Thompson
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #57 - 01/07/12 at 00:17:33
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Harvey Williamson wrote on 01/07/12 at 00:06:03:
fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


CB fail to note that the person who writes the article is a Rybka Forum Moderator.


Yes, I noticed that (since he mentions it himself in part 4), that is true. Still, I guess he also has the right to present the case.

I have no idea what exactly happened, I have just read what's posted here and at CB.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #56 - 01/07/12 at 00:06:03
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fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


CB fail to note that the person who writes the article is a Rybka Forum Moderator.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #55 - 01/06/12 at 20:41:17
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SWJediknight wrote on 01/06/12 at 18:40:45:
I'm waitting for "part 2" personally- I think part 1 leaves us hanging somewhat.
Personally I'm not 100% convinced that Rybka is really guilty of outright plagiarism, but I'm also aware that Chessbase have vested interests, so I await part 2 with interest.


Well, there are four parts published. But you mean there should be something else too?
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #54 - 01/06/12 at 20:02:25
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Re: Fischer Random--what if the engine creator devises opening books for all 960 positions?
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #53 - 01/06/12 at 18:40:45
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I'm waitting for "part 2" personally- I think part 1 leaves us hanging somewhat.
Personally I'm not 100% convinced that Rybka is really guilty of outright plagiarism, but I'm also aware that Chessbase have vested interests, so I await part 2 with interest.

Re. the profit seeking model, it can actually work both ways.  There are of course many examples of where someone charging for something has indeed resulted in increased motivation to develop and improve a product- but there are also others where we end up with an element of minimum service for maximum profit.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #52 - 01/06/12 at 17:45:01
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fling wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:31:59:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.


Maybe not interesting at all?
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #51 - 01/04/12 at 14:31:59
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 03:26:48:
The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)


Chessbase has now published comments on this issue:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=7791

Very interesting to read.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #50 - 07/13/11 at 10:34:15
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@Stigma:

The effects of engines could be significantly marginalized with the introduction of Fischer Random anyway, knowing what we know about how engines handle the very early phases of the game. So if we really wanted chess for the fight and not so much the academic pursuit (because realistically - pursuing the development of opening theory when the starting position changes would be tantamount to a gross waste of time), then we'd have already gone that route.

The fact that chess is still doing alright with just one starting position and engine dominance is nice, though.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #49 - 07/11/11 at 15:25:47
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It's true that this case probably won't halt the development of chess engines much.

But I kind of wish it would! Modern chess is more and more about processors, RAM and memory feats, and less about thinking, psychology, personality and culture. This is a development I deplore.

To me the fight between two minds at the board under a time limit is the whole point of chess. And preparation of course, but wasn't it much more fascinating when it depended solely on human ideas and their exchange between real flesh-and-blood people?

If the human and social elements become much less significant than they are now I'm not sure I will manage to stay interested in the game.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #48 - 07/04/11 at 21:14:32
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GeneM wrote on 07/04/11 at 06:16:13:
The primary purpose of GPL is to prevent commercial forces from propelling the use of the GPL infected code to greater heights for humanity; as Rybka obviously did.

Programmers who infect their code with GPL are neither white knights nor heroes. But their legal rights should be protected.

It would be better for the world if the author of Fruit used Fruit to make money for himself, to motivate him to continually improve Fruit for the benefit of the rest of us. Instead he abandoned Fruit, because he did not want to improve it for free. Hooray for GPL?

The damage from GPL could be long lasting to all of us. Rybka might be forced to become free to anyone for download.
This will damage the motivation that other commercial ventures may have to spend further R&D money on their chess engines --- because it is hard to compete against free, especially when the free item has been driven by commercial forces to such a high level of quality. Thus GPL could suddenly halt advances in chess engines for many years. Hooray for GPL?  Sad

Smyslov_Fan could change his tag line to - "Progress depends on the unreasonable man, and on the absence of GPL.".


Oh yes, to be sure, this would be the best of all possible worlds if only free market forces were unleashed, instead of being fettered by such socialist abominations as child labor laws, zoning restrictions, building codes, and health regulation. That's the whole reaon we're at 20% unemployment right now and manufacturing on this continent has gone to hell. Not the fault of the free market, not a bit! Can't get a job? Working three part-time jobs without being able to afford health care? That's not the free market's fault, its the EPA, them and those assholes at the Free Software Foundation.

P.S. The usual understanding of "being driven by commercial forces" is that if you don't satisfy your customers, you lose your shirt. There are no such obvious market forces "driving" free software.  Neoclassical economic theory has to go rather far around the block to explain why free software even exists, let alone that its quality compares quite favorably with that of for-profit software. Your post is a mishmash of bad economics and believing-makes-it-so Hayekian hogwash.






« Last Edit: 07/05/11 at 02:27:33 by Markovich »  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #47 - 07/04/11 at 20:37:49
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GeneM wrote on 07/04/11 at 06:16:13:
The damage from GPL could be long lasting to all of us.


The GPL didn't cause any damage. The thieves who (allegedly) stole it to use it with Rybka are the people who caused damage and they should be punished. Rybka is imo a waste of money anyway. 

Houdini is better than Rybka anyway, especially on home computers. Houdini finds the lines much faster than Rybka. On my modest computer Houdini makes Rybka look like Fritz.

GeneM, can you really think that? So if someone took a large non-fiction book and added a little extra additional detail in it they should be allowed to sell them at full price and pretend they wrote it all themseles? Or everyone who creates a program should make it closed-source like Rybka? I find your viewpoint non-sensical.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #46 - 07/04/11 at 17:13:10
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GeneM wrote on 07/04/11 at 06:16:13:
The primary purpose of GPL is to prevent commercial forces from propelling the use of the GPL infected code to greater heights for humanity; as Rybka obviously did.

Programmers who infect their code with GPL are neither white knights nor heroes. But their legal rights should be protected.

It would be better for the world if the author of Fruit used Fruit to make money for himself, to motivate him to continually improve Fruit for the benefit of the rest of us. Instead he abandoned Fruit, because he did not want to improve it for free. Hooray for GPL?

The damage from GPL could be long lasting to all of us. Rybka might be forced to become free to anyone for download.
This will damage the motivation that other commercial ventures may have to spend further R&D money on their chess engines --- because it is hard to compete against free, especially when the free item has been driven by commercial forces to such a high level of quality. Thus GPL could suddenly halt advances in chess engines for many years. Hooray for GPL?  Sad

Smyslov_Fan could change his tag line to - "Progress depends on the unreasonable man, and on the absence of GPL.".

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin you sound like Ayn Rand.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #45 - 07/04/11 at 07:12:13
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GeneM wrote on 07/04/11 at 06:16:13:
It would be better for the world if the author of Fruit used Fruit to make money for himself, to motivate him to continually improve Fruit for the benefit of the rest of us.


The profit seeking model worked really well in the financial sector didn't it?
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #44 - 07/04/11 at 07:03:17
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I find it amusing people are concerned about this stalling the progress of chess engines given Rybka isn't even the strongest engine out there, and the one that is strongest is both free and credits it sources.

Funny how that works.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #43 - 07/04/11 at 06:16:13
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The primary purpose of GPL is to prevent commercial forces from propelling the use of the GPL infected code to greater heights for humanity; as Rybka obviously did.

Programmers who infect their code with GPL are neither white knights nor heroes. But their legal rights should be protected.

It would be better for the world if the author of Fruit used Fruit to make money for himself, to motivate him to continually improve Fruit for the benefit of the rest of us. Instead he abandoned Fruit, because he did not want to improve it for free. Hooray for GPL?

The damage from GPL could be long lasting to all of us. Rybka might be forced to become free to anyone for download.
This will damage the motivation that other commercial ventures may have to spend further R&D money on their chess engines --- because it is hard to compete against free, especially when the free item has been driven by commercial forces to such a high level of quality. Thus GPL could suddenly halt advances in chess engines for many years. Hooray for GPL?  Sad

Smyslov_Fan could change his tag line to - "Progress depends on the unreasonable man, and on the absence of GPL.".
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #42 - 07/04/11 at 04:56:38
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RivertonKnight wrote on 07/04/11 at 04:52:58:
I might be naive, but how can you steal open source?


It had a GPL license ie if you USED the source you had to 1) both acknowledge and 2) make all your code also open source. This is the contribution you must make for using open source GPL License. In this case, Vas outright plagiarized the code and denied it. And obviously Rybka is not open source GPL.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #41 - 07/04/11 at 04:52:58
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I might be naive, but how can you steal open source?
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #40 - 07/04/11 at 02:59:12
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How about this? I used to be a reporter for student newspapers between 1990-2009 at 4 different schools. I ended my career as the Executive Editor of the Rutgers Newark Observer.  Let me tell you that we did fire a couple of people for plagiarism in my day.
That said, plagiarisim means taking someone else's work and passing it off as your own. This is true whether it is the written word, a work of art or a computer program.

So, will you take my expert opinion on it?
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #39 - 07/03/11 at 16:05:52
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/11 at 15:15:41:
Plagiarism is indeed a form of theft. Take a look at academic and legal definitions. Plagiarism is the fraudulent stealing of words and claiming them as your own. That's a form of theft.

Markovich is right to call it theft.


Third'd SF & Markovich are right. There is no semantical definition of theft that could be constructed that this incident would not fall under.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #38 - 07/03/11 at 15:15:41
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Plagiarism is indeed a form of theft. Take a look at academic and legal definitions. Plagiarism is the fraudulent stealing of words and claiming them as your own. That's a form of theft.

Markovich is right to call it theft.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #37 - 07/03/11 at 13:05:55
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Markovich wrote on 07/03/11 at 12:13:43:
With respect, that actually is theft, using the term the way I believe the vast majority of people do. But what's the point of splitting semantic hairs? To make stealing other people's ideas seem less reprehensible?


I fully agree that such conduct is reprehensible. But the argument that it is particularly reprehensible because it is theft is a weak one if it is not in fact theft. I think most people do regard depriving a person of possible income as somehow less reprehensible than depriving the person of property that s/he already owns. If that is not so, I wonder why the law bothers to draw the distinction.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #36 - 07/03/11 at 12:13:43
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Straggler wrote on 07/03/11 at 11:31:31:
Markovich wrote on 07/03/11 at 01:10:50:
I have to say, this being theft, that the oh-well-how-bad-is-it-really tone of some posts here is pretty aggravating.

With respect, it isn't actually theft. If you steal something, the owner no longer has it. If you infringe someone's copyright, they still have their property (viz. the copyright). They may be financially worse off as a result of the infringement, but nothing has been stolen from them.

Not that that invalidates your point.


With respect, that actually is theft, using the term the way I believe the vast majority of people do. But what's the point of splitting semantic hairs? To make stealing other people's ideas seem less reprehensible?

The authors of Crafty set forth their code under terms that legally guaranteed its ability to be copied and modified by anyone using it, terms which by license extend to any software that encorporates this code.  By appropriating this code and distributing it in hidden, uncopyable and unmodifiable form (supposing that the allegations are true), Rybka's author made all the eventual recipients of his code the poorer, in their lost ability to copy and modify his source code, which was their right vis his use of GPL'd source code. That is the basis upon which the FSF would sue.  They have indeed sued others before on this same basis.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #35 - 07/03/11 at 11:31:31
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Markovich wrote on 07/03/11 at 01:10:50:
I have to say, this being theft, that the oh-well-how-bad-is-it-really tone of some posts here is pretty aggravating.

With respect, it isn't actually theft. If you steal something, the owner no longer has it. If you infringe someone's copyright, they still have their property (viz. the copyright). They may be financially worse off as a result of the infringement, but nothing has been stolen from them.

Not that that invalidates your point.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #34 - 07/03/11 at 10:32:28
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Doesn't this happen at a time when selling programs is mostly influenced by the GUI and functionality for different uses? Does anyone really care if a prog is 3000 or 3050?
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #33 - 07/03/11 at 09:30:44
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Potentially worse than that for Chessbase of course because a GPLed Rkyba would surely basically destroy the commercial chess program market?

I'm still not sure quite who he'd be meant to pay damages too - the commons being too generalised - but certainly not an expert Smiley
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #32 - 07/03/11 at 03:26:48
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The ruling isn't a legal ruling in and of itself, but it will make any legal case against Rybka that much easier. I think it's pretty clear why Chessbase has remained silent on this rather important piece of computer chess news. (Remember how quickly they report when one of their programs win these tnmts.)
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #31 - 07/03/11 at 02:25:16
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Exactly. FSF is.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #30 - 07/03/11 at 01:30:43
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Markovich wrote on 07/03/11 at 01:10:50:
Most likely the Free Software Foundation will bring suit, and if he's in the wrong, he'll definitely have a rather large check to write. I doubt very much if the FSF would be satisfied with his opening Rybka's source code, particularly since the GPL already requires that. He will have to disgorge some or all of his ill-gotten gains. At least, that's what he's liable for.

I have to say, this being theft, that the oh-well-how-bad-is-it-really tone of some posts here is pretty aggravating. The idea that no one has been financially damaged is pretty laughable. This guy has stolen a big piece of the commons and grazed exclusively his own sheep on it, you see?


While what you say is true, it still takes someone actually bringing suit against him. ICGA is not a legal body by any means.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #29 - 07/03/11 at 01:10:50
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MartinC wrote on 07/01/11 at 08:41:46:
Is there financial liablity? Not clear who he'd pay it to, as no one has been financially damaged.

Most logically could see him being forced to GPL Rykba, which would of course have non trivial consequences!


Most likely the Free Software Foundation will bring suit, and if he's in the wrong, he'll definitely have a rather large check to write. I doubt very much if the FSF would be satisfied with his opening Rybka's source code, particularly since the GPL already requires that. He will have to disgorge some or all of his ill-gotten gains. At least, that's what he's liable for.

I have to say, this being theft, that the oh-well-how-bad-is-it-really tone of some posts here is pretty aggravating. The idea that no one has been financially damaged is pretty laughable. This guy has stolen a big piece of the commons and grazed exclusively his own sheep on it, you see?

@Lev: I doubt that any more copies of Rybka will be sold, not unless its creator can exonerate himself.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #28 - 07/02/11 at 22:49:01
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Gambit wrote on 07/02/11 at 22:32:20:
Does this controversy mean Rybka will no longer be sold?


Rybka will still be for sale (at least until such time as a formal lawsuit is brought with injunctions against sale). It just can no longer compete in tournaments.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #27 - 07/02/11 at 22:32:20
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Absolutely incredible! Rybka being banned for cheating?! Oh man... I read the entire 2 pages of posts, and found the ICGA conclusions to be believable. You cannot make this stuff up, people. As someone who served on the Judiciary Board at Bloomfield College in New Jersey, I know what the legal process looks like. You hear the evidence, listen to the prosecution and the defense, then make your judgment.

Vasik offered no defense, and as result, effectively forfeited the case.

Now, I am no computer geek, but even I know that software can be copied and plagiarized. We see this here in America with pirated CDs all the time. So what makes anyone think computer software cannot be plagiarized? Anyone with the necessary knowhow and expertise could do it.

Does this controversy mean Rybka will no longer be sold?
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #26 - 07/01/11 at 10:07:35
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The ICGA have created a page on Wikispaces https://icga.wikispaces.com/message/list/Preventing+cheating

Here anyone can post ideas and proposed rule changes by clicking on the Discussion tab. You must 1st be a member of Wikispaces this takes about 11 seconds.

Only posts on this Wiki will be considered by the ICGA board.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #25 - 07/01/11 at 08:41:46
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Is there financial liablity? Not clear who he'd pay it to, as no one has been financially damaged.

Most logically could see him being forced to GPL Rykba, which would of course have non trivial consequences!
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #24 - 07/01/11 at 07:23:11
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Thanks Harvey, for the update.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #23 - 07/01/11 at 06:54:23
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jmi wrote on 07/01/11 at 01:33:37:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/30/11 at 16:41:05:
I found it interesting that Chessbase was silent on the issue as of yesterday. (I haven't checked today.)


Still nothing yet. Chessbase is no doubt seeking legal advice.

Btw, has the report/findings been sent to FSF yet? If it did, more sh!t is going to hit the fan. Vasik had better get a good lawyer .... or a good hiding place.

PS: A more informed article has now appeared in the Washington Times:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/30/computer-chess-champ-stripped-of...


[color=#00ff00][/color]

Yes the FSF have a copy
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #22 - 07/01/11 at 06:05:58
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jmi wrote on 07/01/11 at 01:33:37:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/30/11 at 16:41:05:
I found it interesting that Chessbase was silent on the issue as of yesterday. (I haven't checked today.)


Still nothing yet. Chessbase is no doubt seeking legal advice.

Btw, has the report/findings been sent to FSF yet? If it did, more sh!t is going to hit the fan. Vasik had better get a good lawyer .... or a good hiding place.

PS: A more informed article has now appeared in the Washington Times:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/30/computer-chess-champ-stripped-of...



I imagine the silence of Chessbase has to do with their bank account, and not any legal worries over publishing the story.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #21 - 07/01/11 at 02:13:44
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punter wrote on 06/30/11 at 13:55:09:
Quote:
There's a whole branch of law devoted to this.  Harvey's quoted source is right, it's all about the licenses.  Crafty is under the GPL, and you can't GPL code into proprietary software.


My point is that you can't GPL ideas. Using ideas from GPL code in commercial product is not a crime, reusing exact code is. That's big difference.
The implementation is subject of the license but in the report they seem to compare ideas (for example several factors in evaluation function). Those are not patented nor GPL'ed. You can't say "Hey, I was first to think about bitboard and released GPL'ed product containing this, now nobody can make not GPL'ed product working on bitboards.


Like I said, there are laws governing this. I don't know about ideas, but my understanding is, yes, you can own methods; that's what patents are all about. Here I don't think it's a patent issue, just one of code copying. But we both are ignorant not only of the law, but also of the facts, so we shall have to wait and see. The only thing I do maintain is that if there has been code copying, there is a lot of financial exposure for Rybka's authors. That is self-evident, really.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #20 - 07/01/11 at 01:33:37
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/30/11 at 16:41:05:
I found it interesting that Chessbase was silent on the issue as of yesterday. (I haven't checked today.)


Still nothing yet. Chessbase is no doubt seeking legal advice.

Btw, has the report/findings been sent to FSF yet? If it did, more sh!t is going to hit the fan. Vasik had better get a good lawyer .... or a good hiding place.

PS: A more informed article has now appeared in the Washington Times:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/30/computer-chess-champ-stripped-of...

  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #19 - 06/30/11 at 18:38:46
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I've read the report and I find its conclusions very believable.
Interesting what is going to happen now. I just hope people will somehow find a way to provide strong engines to us and this verdict won't stall progress in computer chess.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #18 - 06/30/11 at 16:41:05
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The original post claims plagiarism. That aint ideas, that's exact quotes. In this case, chunks of programming.

Now that Rybka has been banned, it will be easier to make legal claims in court.

This won't be the last we've heard from this case. I found it interesting that Chessbase was silent on the issue as of yesterday. (I haven't checked today.)
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #17 - 06/30/11 at 16:25:21
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punter wrote on 06/30/11 at 13:55:09:
Quote:
There's a whole branch of law devoted to this.  Harvey's quoted source is right, it's all about the licenses.  Crafty is under the GPL, and you can't GPL code into proprietary software.


My point is that you can't GPL ideas. Using ideas from GPL code in commercial product is not a crime, reusing exact code is. That's big difference.
The implementation is subject of the license but in the report they seem to compare ideas (for example several factors in evaluation function). Those are not patented nor GPL'ed. You can't say "Hey, I was first to think about bitboard and released GPL'ed product containing this, now nobody can make not GPL'ed product working on bitboards.



We are not talking about ideas there are some identical bugs in Crafty that show up in early rybka versions. How do the same exact bugs get there?
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #16 - 06/30/11 at 13:58:41
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But as punter says has he copied code or has he copied some "ideas" ? Surely it would be tough to prove copying from a legal standpoint - it seems like they were reverse engineering code and going on the basis that some variable names were the same in the evaluations - from a legal standpoint I wouldn't have thought that was good enough.

Edit - ah you beat me to it.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #15 - 06/30/11 at 13:55:09
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Quote:
There's a whole branch of law devoted to this.  Harvey's quoted source is right, it's all about the licenses.  Crafty is under the GPL, and you can't GPL code into proprietary software.


My point is that you can't GPL ideas. Using ideas from GPL code in commercial product is not a crime, reusing exact code is. That's big difference.
The implementation is subject of the license but in the report they seem to compare ideas (for example several factors in evaluation function). Those are not patented nor GPL'ed. You can't say "Hey, I was first to think about bitboard and released GPL'ed product containing this, now nobody can make not GPL'ed product working on bitboards.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #14 - 06/30/11 at 12:52:52
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There's a whole branch of law devoted to this.  Harvey's quoted source is right, it's all about the licenses.  Crafty is under the GPL, and you can't GPL code into proprietary software.

This goes way beyond Levy and his championship event.  That's small potatoes.  If the allegations are true, the people selling Rybka could be sued, big time.  I'm sure they've made a pile of money which, arguably, is not rightfully theirs.  Given the way these things often work out, however, I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome is simply that Rybka ceases to be offered for sale.
 
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #13 - 06/30/11 at 12:47:20
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I find one piece of report a bit disturbing.
It's about evaluation function and arguments that Rybka is evaluating the same factors other programs.
I don't think it's enough to claim plagiarism. Those are just ideas and everybody (I hope) can freely copy them. What is a no-no is reusing existing code (aka copying it).
It would be very sad state of affairs if someone make open source chess program with some good ideas in it and then the industry would be stopped forever because nobody could use those ideas in their projects (many of them more or less obvious or reachable if one thinks about it).
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #12 - 06/30/11 at 10:29:57
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This post i just found is a nice try to summarise things.

http://www.chess.com/news/rybka-banned-and-stripped-of-titles-3798

'I see a lot of assumptions and questions below about aspects of this case, so let me (as someone whose profession is in the software domain) attempt to offer some clarity from a code licensing perspective:

- Each piece of software is distributed under a certain license (of which there are many types) that the creator of the software decides on.  The particular chosen license sets forth the rules of how the code and software may and may not be used, e.g., whether the code of the software is allowed to be reused/copied, and whether to do so requires attribution or payment.  For software as an intellectual property, to not comply with the terms of a license is equivalent to stealing (from a legal perspective).  So copying without attribution, in this case, makes the author liable for theft, at the least.

- That Rybka is superior in strength to the engines it has allegedly copied from is not surprising: it shows that more than copying has taken place, e.g., the application of some genuine creativity on the part of the creators of Rybka.  That, however, does not mean that the copying is less of a violation, so the argument that it's better and therefore not exactly the same is moot; noone claimed that it's exactly the same, merely that portions of it are too much alike to be the result of mere independent creation coinciding by chance.

- The evaluation function is one of the most critical and distinguishing pieces of a chess engine; it's also the part that must be guarded the most if the author wishes to not be easily outdone.  This is what makes some engines stronger than others.  So copying the evaluation function is the same as grabbing the parts of highest value (without "paying" for them).  As an analogy, if you visit a wine cellar and take away a $5 bottle without paying, the owner may choose to avoid the hassle of going after you, but if you took a vintage $5000 bottle away, they may be inclined differently.

- Whether we like or agree with the presence of licenses, especially restrictive licenses (like GPL, for those who know about it), is another point that has no relevance to the discussion.  It's the author's choice what license to use, and it's their legal right to have their intellectual property protected from misuse under the terms of the chosen license.  And yes, some licenses are generally preferable from the perspective of someone wishing to reuse code without too many strings attached (e.g., GPL isn't one of them).'
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #11 - 06/29/11 at 22:53:19
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 06/29/11 at 21:47:43:
Ehh... to be honest I'm not interested in anecdotal references said by one person on the internet about alleged wrongdoing.


Nor would I be.  But i said *start* there, not end there.  To be honest, to borrow a phrase, I'm not interested in doing all the work for you.  Especially when the work isn't tremendously difficult.

I'm quite impressed that I said 'google this term' and the first hit back was me saying 'google this term', however.  Infinite loop ahoy.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #10 - 06/29/11 at 21:47:43
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Google "David Levy brother in law"

2 results (0.12 seconds)

ChessPub Forum - Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1309356549/9
10 posts - 5 authors - Last post: 22 hours ago
Still, for a lark, you might want to start by googling "David Levy brother in law" and seeing where that leads you. Follow the white rabbit, as they say. ..

The chess games of Eric Schiller
www.chessgames.com/perl/kibitzing?kid=P27484&reply=2425 - Cached
2 Jul 2010 – As for the other issues, I remind everyone that Ray Keene is married to the wonderful Annette Goodman and is David Levy's brother-in-law. ...

Ehh... to be honest I'm not interested in anecdotal references said by one person on the internet about alleged wrongdoing.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #9 - 06/29/11 at 20:14:22
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 06/29/11 at 16:58:20:
Why? I can't find anything that would question his morality...


Well, far be it for me to suggest that there is any such material out there.  Still, for a lark, you might want to start by googling "David Levy brother in law" and seeing where that leads you.

Follow the white rabbit, as they say.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #8 - 06/29/11 at 16:58:20
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JonathanB wrote on 06/29/11 at 16:36:44:
Harvey Williamson wrote on 06/29/11 at 14:09:09:
...
[8] The ICGA demands that Vasik Rajlich return to the ICGA the four
replicas of the Shannon Trophy presented at the World Computer Chess
Championships in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, and to return to the ICGA all prize
money awarded for Rybka’s performances in those events.




David Levy [President - ICGA]
June 28th 2011



Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Rybka issue, it is more than a tad unfortunate that it is David Levy who is staking a claim to the moral high ground is it not?


Why? I can't find anything that would question his morality...
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #7 - 06/29/11 at 16:36:44
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Harvey Williamson wrote on 06/29/11 at 14:09:09:
...
[8] The ICGA demands that Vasik Rajlich return to the ICGA the four
replicas of the Shannon Trophy presented at the World Computer Chess
Championships in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, and to return to the ICGA all prize
money awarded for Rybka’s performances in those events.




David Levy [President - ICGA]
June 28th 2011



Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Rybka issue, it is more than a tad unfortunate that it is David Levy who is staking a claim to the moral high ground is it not?
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #6 - 06/29/11 at 16:10:25
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/29/11 at 15:54:59:
One thing that sounds a bit strange is this:

Quote:
By claiming other programmers’ work as his own, and failing to comply with the
abovementioned rule, Vasik Rajlich has unfairly been awarded one shared 2nd-3rd
place (in 2006) and four World Computer Chess Championship titles (in 2007,
2008, 2009 and 2010). Furthermore, it seems to the ICGA that Vasik Rajlich
clearly knew that he was in the wrong in doing so, since he has repeatedly
denied plagiarizing the work of other programmers.



So, he knew he was in the wrong because he denied that he plagiarized others?  Umm....

Maybe the logic is: He knew that plagiarism was a wrong thing to do, as evidenced by his repeated denials.

This doesn't address whether he is actually guilty of plagiarism, but whether any plagiarism that has occurred was due to him not knowing the laws and rules on it.
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #5 - 06/29/11 at 15:54:59
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One thing that sounds a bit strange is this:

Quote:
By claiming other programmers’ work as his own, and failing to comply with the
abovementioned rule, Vasik Rajlich has unfairly been awarded one shared 2nd-3rd
place (in 2006) and four World Computer Chess Championship titles (in 2007,
2008, 2009 and 2010). Furthermore, it seems to the ICGA that Vasik Rajlich
clearly knew that he was in the wrong in doing so, since he has repeatedly
denied plagiarizing the work of other programmers.



So, he knew he was in the wrong because he denied that he plagiarized others?  Umm....
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #4 - 06/29/11 at 14:56:00
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How can you guarantee anything? I will do a bit of research into the case as you say, but the whole tone of the committee letter sounds wrong to me - and can someone really go to jail for this? If so I take it all back, just giving my initial impressions. I admit its a topic I find it hard to get worked up about but maybe thats my fault.
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #3 - 06/29/11 at 14:50:11
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Keano wrote on 06/29/11 at 14:31:09:
all sounds a bit over the top no? Sounds like because he didn't reply to their precious committee they were out to shaft him. I always thought he admitted Rybka used other code?


No. He didn't admit to using other code that he doesn't have permission to use, that would be instant suicide for the project. He cannot use open source code without permission and make money out of it, that is highly unethical and illegal. He will I'm sure be sued/could in fact go to jail over this. 

"Rybka has been accused of being based on Fruit, but Rajlich has denied this categorically,[44] saying that Rybka is 100% original at the source code level." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rybka#Controversy
 
If he just admitted it openly Rybka would be banned and he would be sued from that second. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the case. This type of controversy has dogged computer chess engines for years with allegations of stolen code but it being very hard to prove. I gaurantee that this is the right decision, the evidence is totally overwhelming and it had nothing to do with him not answering to "their precious committee". 
  

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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #2 - 06/29/11 at 14:31:09
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all sounds a bit over the top no? Sounds like because he didn't reply to their precious committee they were out to shaft him. I always thought he admitted Rybka used other code?
  
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Re: Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
Reply #1 - 06/29/11 at 14:25:34
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Wow! That is fascinating!

I do wonder how, if so much was plagiarised, Rybka was able to outperform the clones it was based on so completely.

Plagiarism is much more clear-cut than so many other "cheating" issues. I'm glad to see that Rybka's punishment is harsh. I expect there will now be legal proceedings on behalf of the original programmers to collect some of the revenue the program made.
  
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Rybka disqualified and banned from WCCC
06/29/11 at 14:09:09
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http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/rybka-disqualified-and-banned-from-world-compu...

Rybka Disqualified and Banned
from World Computer Chess Championships

David Levy – ICGA President

June 28th 2011


The International Computer Games Association (ICGA) has been conducting an
investigation into allegations that, in the chess program Rybka, the programmer
Vasik Rajlich plagiarized two other programs: Crafty and Fruit. The ICGA has
considered and evaluated the evidence presented to the investigation panel and
the report prepared by the panel’s Secretariat. (The report and evidence files
are attached.) We would like to thank those members of the panel who contributed
to this investigation and the Secretariat for the enormous amount of
conscientious work they have put in to this matter.

By a unanimous 5-0 decision of executive members of the ICGA we find ourselves
in agreement with the verdict of the Secretariat’s report. We are convinced that
the evidence against Vasik Rajlich is both overwhelming in its volume and beyond
reasonable question in its nature. Vasik Rajlich is guilty of plagiarizing the
programs Crafty and Fruit, and has violated the ICGA’s tournament rules with
respect to the World Computer Chess Championships in the years 2006, 2007, 2008,
2009 and 2010. Specifically, Vasik Rajlich, on all five occasions, violated
Tournament Rule 2 which requires that:

Each program must be the original work of the entering developers. Programming
teams whose code is derived from or including game-playing code written by
others must name all other authors, or the source of such code, in their
submission details. Programs which are discovered to be close derivatives of
others (e.g., by playing nearly all moves the same), may be declared invalid by
the Tournament Director after seeking expert advice. For this purpose a listing
of all game-related code running on the system must be available on demand to
the Tournament Director.

By claiming other programmers’ work as his own, and failing to comply with the
abovementioned rule, Vasik Rajlich has unfairly been awarded one shared 2nd-3rd
place (in 2006) and four World Computer Chess Championship titles (in 2007,
2008, 2009 and 2010). Furthermore, it seems to the ICGA that Vasik Rajlich
clearly knew that he was in the wrong in doing so, since he has repeatedly
denied plagiarizing the work of other programmers.


The ICGA regards Vasik Rajlich’s violation of the abovementioned rule as the
most serious offence that a chess programmer and ICGA member can commit with
respect to his peers and to the ICGA. During the course of the investigation and
upon presentation of the Secretariat’s report Vasik Rajlich did not offer,
despite repeated invitations from the ICGA to do so, any kind of defence to the
allegations, or to the evidence, or to the Secretariat’s report, other than to
claim in an e-mail to myself on May 13th 2011 that:

Rybkahas does not "include game-playing code written by others", aside from
standard exceptions which wouldn't count as 'game-playing'.

The vague phrase "derived from game-playing code written by others" also does
not in my view apply to Rybka.


The ICGA is of the view that such a serious offence deserves to be met with
correspondingly serious sanctions against the perpetrator. In deciding on
appropriate sanctions the ICGA has borne in mind the approach of the
International Olympic Committee for dealing with the most serious cases of the
violations of its rules.

The ICGA has therefore decided as follows:

[1] Vasik Rajlich is hereby disqualified from the World Computer Chess
Championships (WCCC) of 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010.

[2] The 2nd-3rd place awarded to the program called “Rajlich” in the 2006
WCCC is hereby annulled, sole 2nd place is awarded to the program Shredder, and
3rd place in that event is awarded to the program Zappa.


[3] The 1st places and World Computer Chess Champion titles awarded to
the program Rybka in the 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010 WCCCs are hereby annulled,
and all the other programs that competed in those events are moved up in the
final tournament standings by one place. Thus the revised tournament standings
and titles for those events will now be as follows.


2007

1st Zappa (World Champion)
2nd Loop
=3rd GridChess
=3rd Shredder


2008

1st Hiarcs (World Champion)
2nd Junior
3rd Cluster Toga



2009

=1st Junior (Joint World Champion)
=1st Shredder (Joint World Champion)
=1st Deep Sjeng (Joint World Champion)

2010

=1st Rondo (Joint World Champion)
=1st Thinker (Joint World Champion)
3rd Shredder

[4] In due course those programmers whose programs have been elevated to
World Champion (or joint World Champion) status will receive from the ICGA
replicas of the Shannon trophy for the appropriate years.

[5] The plaques on the Shannon trophy that currently bear the name Rybka
(for the years 2007-2010) will be removed from the trophy and new plaques will
be engraved with the names of the revised winners of the title.

[6] Similarly, the titles of World Computer Speed (Blitz) Chess Champion
that were awarded to Rybka in 2009 and 2010 are hereby annulled. The revised
winners of the speed chess title for those years are therefore:

2009 Shredder

2010 Jonny and Shredder (joint champions)

[7] Vasik Rajlich is banned for life from competing in the World Computer
Chess Championship or any other event organized by or sanctioned by the ICGA.

[8] The ICGA demands that Vasik Rajlich return to the ICGA the four
replicas of the Shannon Trophy presented at the World Computer Chess
Championships in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, and to return to the ICGA all prize
money awarded for Rybka’s performances in those events.




David Levy [President - ICGA]
June 28th 2011
  
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