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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) simple plan against the Pirc? (Read 47683 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #32 - 07/05/11 at 10:37:45
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MNb wrote on 07/05/11 at 09:41:33:
Did you expect me to publish my complete research on this variation or something? In this thread?
Anyhow, after 7...h5 8.g5 Nfd7 9.f4 Bb7 pawn e4 is a weakness. See eg Sveshnikov-Zakharevich RUSch 2001. I have to agree with Finkel that "Black has very comfortable equality and White is the one to be careful to keep the position balanced" after move 12. Alas.
Maybe 7.h4 is to be preferred as after Nbd7 8.g4 h5 9.g5 the Knight has to go to an inferior square, but Black has other options of course.


10. Nf3 is probably better than 10. Bg2 chosen in the game you mentioned. Despite initial engine optimism the position is still just unclear, and in correspondence games black hasn't done all that great, ie: Popelka (2146)- Pytlik (2403), E-Mail 2006 (1-0) being the most recent I'm aware of.

So like I said, it's not that simple. Do I agree that black should be okay? Yes. However, that's a different issue from ...b5 =. I'd call it unclear if anything else.

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You can say the same of Black.


Which is also true in the ...Qa5 variation as well. If anything it means black, at the minimum, has alternatives.

Quote:
I don't think I claimed that. I claimed that this variation is critical, not the game you mentioned on the previous page.


The game I mentioned on the previous page does represent one of the critical lines. Obviously Nf3 and Bh6 are other ones, it's not much of a disagreement given openings usually have multiple key lines.
  

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MNb
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #31 - 07/05/11 at 09:41:33
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/05/11 at 04:04:55:
The main lines with 7. g4 are extremely complicated, calling it just "=" is a substantial overstatement.

Did you expect me to publish my complete research on this variation or something? In this thread?
Anyhow, after 7...h5 8.g5 Nfd7 9.f4 Bb7 pawn e4 is a weakness. See eg Sveshnikov-Zakharevich RUSch 2001. I have to agree with Finkel that "Black has very comfortable equality and White is the one to be careful to keep the position balanced" after move 12. Alas.
Maybe 7.h4 is to be preferred as after Nbd7 8.g4 h5 9.g5 the Knight has to go to an inferior square, but Black has other options of course.

BPaulsen wrote on 07/05/11 at 04:04:55:
White has very real chances to try for an edge in the critical lines with 7. g4 due to the extremely complex resulting positions.

You can say the same of Black.

BPaulsen wrote on 07/05/11 at 04:04:55:
It's an area for investigation, but definitely isn't one to put off black from the entire concept.

I don't think I claimed that. I claimed that this variation is critical, not the game you mentioned on the previous page.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #30 - 07/05/11 at 09:29:06
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@ BPaulsen

Thank you for the game score. Actually I find these f3, g4-g5, f4 plans a bit scary for Black.

In the past I thought 6.Bh6 to be critical, too. But nowadays after 6... Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 c5 9.Nge2 cxd4 10.Nxd4 Nc6 it´s known that Black has a decent Sicilian structure. Here it is clearly an advantage to be able to castle queenside with Black.

It might be interesting to compare this with 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 c5. Here I believe White is slightly better after 8.d5 Qa5 (not best, perhaps). Now Vigus gives 9.h4 as critical but I like 9.Nf3 when taking on e4 is to dangerous (9... Nxe4 10.0-0-0 intending Ng5 and h4-h5) and 9... Ng4 (otherwise Ng5 comes) 10.Qh4 looks pleasant for White.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #29 - 07/05/11 at 09:02:19
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The above mentioned (Roumen) Tashkov is a good friend of mine (we leave in the same town). He plays Pirc/Modern (his main weapon along with KID, too..) since he was a kid (and now he's 49). All these years I've been trying to fight against his pets (Pirc/KIDs) OTB or in corrs. Hard mission!..
As long as I know the most unpleasant setup for him as the second player is the classical one. The problem is that I'm not Karpov though.  Roll Eyes
Edit: Since gwnn wants a simple plan for white then I recommend him the classical. After all, if not playing like Karpov...at least we can try.  Cool
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #28 - 07/05/11 at 04:04:55
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MNb wrote on 07/05/11 at 03:33:32:
Sure White has many options after 6...b5 and sure that famous Kasparov-Topalov is not the final word and sure White has many other options. None of them promises White even an edge. I wish it would or I would return to 4.f3 immediately (I gave it up when I realised that 4.Be3 is more precise).


The main lines with 7. g4 are extremely complicated, calling it just "=" is a substantial overstatement. White has very real chances to try for an edge in the critical lines with 7. g4 due to the extremely complex resulting positions.

Quote:
After 6...Qa5 7.Nge2 b5 8.Nc1 White is better prepared for Black's counterplay on the queenside. With the Black King in the centre it isn't a problem that the manoeuvring is slow. The important thing is that White finds good squares for both Knights.


That entire plan is ineffective - black plays b5, Nbd7, Qc7, and white's entire maneuver will ultimately serve as the main source of black's counterplay (the Nb3 isn't just out of play - it's a target). Hallier-Tashkov, E-Mail 2000 is a good example of how little white's entire plan does.

Quote:
6...b5 asks the question what White is going to do with those pieces on the kingside.


White's not compelled to do anything immediate with those pieces, preferring to push pawns. 7. g4 h5 8. g5 Nfd7 9. f4 being extremely common, which gives white more typical placement options for the Ng1/Bf1.

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White's play can be improved too.


The "improvement" on move 13 (tested in Geller-Zakharevich, St. Peterburg 2002) is also =+. The entire idea white employed beginning on move 9 is plainly inferior, leaving 8. Bd3 to preference given there's nothing special about 8. 0-0-0 if e5 doesn't work.

Quote:
Well, that is my general evaluation too. In Dangerous Weapons Vigus seems to agree that this is critical (and not 6.Nf3 or 6.f3). He might have changed his mind since then; after all this is difficult stuff.


It's an area for investigation, but definitely isn't one to put off black from the entire concept. I've experimented at length against Houdini trying to prove an edge of some sort (engine or human recognized) and it's not happening yet.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #27 - 07/05/11 at 03:53:33
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I'm accustomed to seeing the 6...c6 Classical considered as leading to = or unclear with best play; below is one game which has been so cited.  In his Informant notes Browne (a rather accomplished player of the Classical by the way) gave 17...Nxe4 18. Nxe5 Re8!.

[Event "Estes Park ch-USA"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1987.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Browne, Walter Shawn"]
[Black "Rohde, Michael A"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "PU 16.11.10"]
[ECO "B08"]
[PlyCount "117"]

1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Be2 O-O 6. O-O c6 7. h3 Nbd7 8. a4 e5 9.
dxe5 dxe5 10. Be3 Qe7 11. Qd3 Nh5 12. Rfd1 Nf4 13. Qd6 Nxe2  14. Nxe2 Bf6 15. Qxe7
Bxe7 16. Nd2 Nc5 17. Nc4 f6 18. Nc3 Be6 19. Nd6 b6 20. a5 Rfd8 21. Bxc5 bxc5 22.
Nb7 Rd4 23. Na4 Rc4 24. c3 Rxa4 25. Rxa4 a6 26. b4 cxb4 27. cxb4 Bb3 28. Rd7 Bxa4
29. Rxe7 Rb8 30. f3 Bc2 31. Kf2 f5 32. Ke3 f4  33. Kf2 Bb3 34. h4 Bc4 35. g3 h6 36.
gxf4 exf4 37. Kg2 Kf8 38. Rc7 Bf7 39. Nd6 Be6 40. Nb7 Bf7 41. Kf2 g5 42. hxg5 hxg5
43. Kg2 Bh5 44. Rh7 Bf7 45. Nd6 Bg8 46. Rc7 Be6 47. Nb7 Ba2 48. Nc5 Rxb4 49. Kh3
Rb5 50. Rxc6 Ke7 51. Kg4 Bf7 52. Kxg5 Be8 53. Re6  Kf7 54. Rf6  Ke7 55. Re6  Kf7
56. Re5 Rxa5 57. Kxf4 Ra3 58. Nb7 Bc6 59. Nd8  1-0
  
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MNb
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #26 - 07/05/11 at 03:42:04
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punter wrote on 07/05/11 at 01:33:02:
So what's the setup which supposedly gives black good play against classical ?

I can't really give a 100% sure answer, but I guess Black has to look at c6/Nbd7/Qc7. It seems that the Norwood plan (White plays a2-a4-a5, Black answers with Rb8 and b5) is promising. If White only plays a2-a4 Black has ...b6 and ...Bb7 connecting the rooks before playing e7-e5.
White has tons of other options of course, so don't flame me if White has something promising here as well. I mean, Black doesn't want to know what Karpov's score is with the Classical.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #25 - 07/05/11 at 03:33:32
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Sure White has many options after 6...b5 and sure that famous Kasparov-Topalov is not the final word and sure White has many other options. None of them promises White even an edge. I wish it would or I would return to 4.f3 immediately (I gave it up when I realised that 4.Be3 is more precise).
After 6...Qa5 7.Nge2 b5 8.Nc1 White is better prepared for Black's counterplay on the queenside. With the Black King in the centre it isn't a problem that the manoeuvring is slow. The important thing is that White finds good squares for both Knights. Actually in this particular case 8.e5 is to be investigated, but that doesn't affect my general point.
6...b5 asks the question what White is going to do with those pieces on the kingside. I know from experience that finding good squares for them can be very hard - much harder than after 6...Qa5 7.Nge2 b5 8.Nc1.

BPaulsen wrote on 07/05/11 at 01:04:29:
The particular example you cite is actually worse for white despite white winning that game. The way the game went black could've just won a pawn with a better position to boot.

White's play can be improved too.

Quote:
8.Bd3 is white's best, but it is far from clear whether an edge is possible.

Well, that is my general evaluation too. In Dangerous Weapons Vigus seems to agree that this is critical (and not 6.Nf3 or 6.f3). He might have changed his mind since then; after all this is difficult stuff.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #24 - 07/05/11 at 01:33:02
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So what's the setup which supposedly gives black good play against classical ?
It seems that c6, Qc7 and going for e5 is popular but imo it's almost +/- with no risk of ever losing. I find the plan with a5, Na6-b4 best but again only white can play for anything there although it' for sure not simple to win.
The plan with Nc6 isn't played that much anymore I believe. Any other options ?

I also very much like 4.Nf3 5.h3 and 6.Be3 (again intending to go a4 if black plays c6 and take on e5 if blacks go for that). Maybe I am biased towards white in typical pirc endgame but if could got such position after opening every time I wouldn't ever study another line.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #23 - 07/05/11 at 01:04:29
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MNb wrote on 07/04/11 at 22:03:10:
After 6.f3 Black's best is b5, which is equal. Topalov did not lose his famous Wijk aan Zee game because of the opening.


That game was not the final word on 6. f3 b5 (Kasparov's 7th move isn't even the main line), Vigus did a lot of analysis on it and it's not that clear. White has a lot of options, and it's not clear b5 is something black always wants.

Quote:
In general White has serious problems with activating Bf1, Ng1 and Rh1
After 6.f3 Qa5 White should prefer 7.Nge2. Transferring this Knight to b3 solves two problems for White: the weakness a2 after castling queenside and the development of the kingside (compare 6...b5).


Nge2-c1-b3 is too slow and allows a timed ...b5 to generate sufficient counterplay. It doesn't have any independent significance that promises white anything.

Quote:
After 6.Nf3 Qa5 Black can prevent White from castling queenside; play will be similar to the Classical when the question arises if Qa5 is optimally placed. So here I agree.


Okay.

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Instead of 6.f3 or 6.Nf3 White's most ambitious move is 6.Bh6 at once. This exchange fits both in a setup with f3 and with Nf3. It is most precise to leave the choice open for a while. After 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 or 8.o-o-o a very complicated game begins. Black's King will be stuck in the centre for a while, but it's not clear if White can mobilize enough pieces for an attack. Sometimes I think White can prove an edge, sometimes I think Black can equalize with accurate play. One example is Chiburdanidze-Piket, London 1985.


The particular example you cite is actually worse for white despite white winning that game. The way the game went black could've just won a pawn with a better position to boot.

8. Bd3 is white's best, but it is far from clear whether an edge is possible.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #22 - 07/04/11 at 22:03:10
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/04/11 at 19:08:09:
One of the critical lines (in my opinion) was tested in Filipchenko-Brinkmann, E-Mail 2009 and black held the balance without much issue. Black can use the Qa5 set-up regardless of whether white plays a set-up with f3 or Nf3.

(4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 c6 6. f3/Nf3 Qa5)

I disagree that this line is critical for several reasons.
After 6.f3 Black's best is b5, which is equal. Topalov did not lose his famous Wijk aan Zee game because of the opening. In general White has serious problems with activating Bf1, Ng1 and Rh1
After 6.f3 Qa5 White should prefer 7.Nge2. Transferring this Knight to b3 solves two problems for White: the weakness a2 after castling queenside and the development of the kingside (compare 6...b5).
After 6.Nf3 Qa5 Black can prevent White from castling queenside; play will be similar to the Classical when the question arises if Qa5 is optimally placed. So here I agree.
Instead of 6.f3 or 6.Nf3 White's most ambitious move is 6.Bh6 at once. This exchange fits both in a setup with f3 and with Nf3. It is most precise to leave the choice open for a while. After 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 or 8.o-o-o a very complicated game begins. Black's King will be stuck in the centre for a while, but it's not clear if White can mobilize enough pieces for an attack. Sometimes I think White can prove an edge, sometimes I think Black can equalize with accurate play. One example is Chiburdanidze-Piket, London 1985.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #21 - 07/04/11 at 20:38:53
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Fllg wrote on 07/04/11 at 20:27:03:
Hm, I do not feel comfortable combining 4... Bg7 with an early c6 but perhaps Vigus is right that Black is okay here. Maybe I will take another look at this and the line 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 as analysed by Vigus in "Dangerous Weapons: The Pirc and Modern".

Would you mind giving the score of Filipchenko-Brinkmann? I can´t find it.


I got the date on that game wrong, it was 2008.

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 Bg7 5. f3 c6 6. Qd2 Qa5 7. g4 h5 8. g5 Nfd7 9. f4 d5 10. f5 dxe4 11. fxg6 fxg6 12. Nxe4 Qxd2+ 13. Nxd2 0-0 14. Ngf3 Nb6 15. Nh4 Nd5 16. Bg1 Kh7 17. Bd3 Nf4 18. Be4 Bh3 19. Be3 Nd7 20. Ndf3 e5 21. 0-0-0 Bg4 22. dxe5 1/2-1/2
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #20 - 07/04/11 at 20:27:03
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Hm, I do not feel comfortable combining 4... Bg7 with an early c6 but perhaps Vigus is right that Black is okay here. Maybe I will take another look at this and the line 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 as analysed by Vigus in "Dangerous Weapons: The Pirc and Modern".

Would you mind giving the score of Filipchenko-Brinkmann? I can´t find it.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #19 - 07/04/11 at 19:08:09
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Fllg wrote on 07/04/11 at 19:02:07:
Btw, this...
...is an interesting statement. I thought the line which gives Black the biggest headache in the Pirc is the flexible 4.Be3. I do not feel totally comfortable here with Black which is one reason why I prefer the "Modern" move order to have more options like a6 or c6.


4. Be3 is another critical line, but black's set-up with c6/Qa5 (Vigus mentions it) is very complicated/unclear. One of the critical lines (in my opinion) was tested in Filipchenko-Brinkmann, E-Mail 2009 and black held the balance without much issue. Black can use the Qa5 set-up regardless of whether white plays a set-up with f3 or Nf3.

(4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 c6 6. f3/Nf3 Qa5)
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #18 - 07/04/11 at 19:02:07
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Btw, this...

BPaulsen wrote on 07/02/11 at 20:12:00:
Being brutally honest I'm not aware of any clear edge against the Pirc as it is, with only the Austrian represe.nting something of an acid test that really holds black's feet to the fire, theoretically speaking. Against everything else, as far as I can see, black can pick an unclear fight.


...is an interesting statement. I thought the line which gives Black the biggest headache in the Pirc is the flexible 4.Be3. I do not feel totally comfortable here with Black which is one reason why I prefer the "Modern" move order to have more options like a6 or c6.

But after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 I think transposing to the Pirc is objectively best.
  
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