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Poll Question: How do you use the Philidor?



« Created by: MaxJudd on: 07/06/11 at 01:08:06 »
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C41: Philidor plans for black (Read 10559 times)
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #12 - 07/06/11 at 06:42:17
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MaxJudd wrote on 07/06/11 at 01:08:06:
How do you use the Philidor in your opening schemes?

This way: 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7
Philidor opening is known for giving a good chances for fight (no draws allowed!)..  Angry
  
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #11 - 07/06/11 at 06:27:25
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Grijandel wrote on 07/05/11 at 19:50:13:
Daniel wrote on 07/02/11 at 18:16:01:
b6 as given in Bauer's book.  The ...a5 plan as given by Barksky is disgusting


What is the follow up of 8...a5 in Barsky's book? I've played occasionally 8...a5 with the idea of exd5-Nc5-Be6-Qb6 and got very good results with it. Many people exhange on e6 the bishop and after fxe6 black gets a lot of piece play.

Also, on the move order given, what about 8...exd4 inmediately? If 9.Nxd4 d5 10.exd5 Nb6 I think is close to equal, and on 9.Qxd4 Nc5 attacks e4 and you have time to play 10...a5 and follow with Be6-Qb6.

The most consistent plan for both sides after 8... a5 seems to be 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. Re1 c6 8. a4 a5 9. h3 Nb6 10. Ba2 Nfd7 11. Be3 exd4 12. Bxd4 Nc5 as given by Barskiy...where white has two options - 13. Bxc5!? dxc5 14. Qe2 Qd6 15. Rad1 Qh6 or 15... Qg6!? as given by him..and 13. Qe2 at once. In my opinion 12. Qxd4 is a good possibility for white too.. Of course, white can deviate on the 9th move but 9. h3 seems the most natural continuation. The 10th white move can be Bd3 or Bb3 but having in mind Nf6-d7-c5 they seem dubious.
Edit: 8... exd4 is a possible plan too but black has to play with an isolated pawn after 9.Nxd4 d5 10.exd5 Nb6 11. Bb3 Nbxd5 12. Nxd5 Nxd5 13. Bxd5!? cxd5 14. Bf4.. And the white knight on d4 dominates the black light-squared bishop (although black has the famous pair)..
  
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #10 - 07/06/11 at 01:08:06
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How do you use the Philidor in your opening schemes?
  
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #9 - 07/05/11 at 19:50:13
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Daniel wrote on 07/02/11 at 18:16:01:
b6 as given in Bauer's book.  The ...a5 plan as given by Barksky is disgusting


What is the follow up of 8...a5 in Barsky's book? I've played occasionally 8...a5 with the idea of exd5-Nc5-Be6-Qb6 and got very good results with it. Many people exhange on e6 the bishop and after fxe6 black gets a lot of piece play.

Also, on the move order given, what about 8...exd4 inmediately? If 9.Nxd4 d5 10.exd5 Nb6 I think is close to equal, and on 9.Qxd4 Nc5 attacks e4 and you have time to play 10...a5 and follow with Be6-Qb6.
  
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #8 - 07/04/11 at 19:30:24
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MaxJudd wrote on 07/04/11 at 01:44:12:
What about 7 . . . a6 followed by 8 . . . b6 in this line.  This seems pretty solid.


I agree.   

This set-up was suggested in a good Kuzmin survey in NIC YB 91 (2009) and was also commented on in a positive way by King in one of his CBM move-by-move columns.

One thing to watch out for however - is if white plays 7.a4 instead of 7.Re1 - as you then need to consider  8.a5 after 7...a6.

One can then choose to revert back to either of the other two set-up´s  discussed.  I think both are OK for black.
  
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #7 - 07/04/11 at 14:45:43
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Unsurprisingly 7...a6 has been given in some books as leading to a slight advantage for White, a possibility being transposition to De Firmian-Campora, Biel 1995.
  
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #6 - 07/04/11 at 08:02:00
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MaxJudd wrote on 07/04/11 at 01:44:12:
What about 7 . . . a6 followed by 8 . . . b6 in this line.  This seems pretty solid.

After 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. Re1 Bauer comments it as an extremely rare option in a reverse order such as: 7.... b6 8. a4 (8.Nd5!? - his mark) 8.... a6 9. b3 (9. Qe2!? - my mark) 9.... Bb7 10. Ba3 (Bauer says 10. d5 is another option) 10.... h6 11. Qd2 Re8 12. Rad1 (12. d5!? is highly recommendable already - my mark) 12... Bf8 (12... b5!? - his mark) 13. dxe5 (He mentions 13. d5 as an option for white) 13... Nxe5 14. Nxe5 dxe5 15. Qe3 Bxa3! (His mark - with very good practical value) 16. Rxd8 Raxd8 17. Nd5 Nxd5 18. exd5 a5 as in Albert Blees - Konstantin Landa, Leeuwarden (Netherlands 1997) and here 19. Rd1!? (his suggestion) with unbalanced position..
I like this setup for black, but I think 15... Bxa3! fits for an OTB game only (not in corr one). So I think that black has to deviate sooner with 12... b5!? having in mind the earlier 9. Qe2!? if starting with this plan.
  
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #5 - 07/04/11 at 01:44:12
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What about 7 . . . a6 followed by 8 . . . b6 in this line.  This seems pretty solid.
  
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #4 - 07/02/11 at 19:28:23
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Daniel wrote on 07/02/11 at 18:16:01:
b6 as given in Bauer's book.  The ...a5 plan as given by Barksky is disgusting


Can you expand on why a5 disgusts you?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #3 - 07/02/11 at 18:32:40
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One might suspect that 8...a5 and 8...b6 are of approximately equal value.
  
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #2 - 07/02/11 at 18:29:21
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Hmm.. I'm a first player in a correspondent game in which black chose the 8.... a5 plan (not finished yet). Though I received some edge I doubt I would convert it in more than a draw. In another game (in another tournament) I chose Philidor with black just to see 'what's the story'. But I can't decide what to choose. Though I liked this 8.... a5 plan I feel there can be more with 8.... b6 for black. The only thing that stops me from choosing 8.... b6 is my lack of experience in it.
Edit: And btw, my opponent with black chose 8.... a5 but deviated from Barskiy. Not to mention that he is very experienced correspondent player... Eeeh, if some corr players try to write an opening book...it can be way more interesting than some opening writings!  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Philidor plans for black
Reply #1 - 07/02/11 at 18:16:01
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b6 as given in Bauer's book.  The ...a5 plan as given by Barksky is disgusting
  
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C41: Philidor plans for black
07/02/11 at 13:30:52
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Hi all!
After 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. O-O O-O 7. Re1 c6 8. a4 (the main line) which plan do you consider as the best one for black? The 'old' one with 8... a5, or the 'modern' way with 8.... b6 ?
« Last Edit: 07/17/11 at 03:00:37 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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