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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Question about Marin repertoire (Read 6487 times)
IMJohnCox
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #11 - 08/15/11 at 19:39:14
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Gueler, thank you. So he does. 6 e3, eh? Somehow I never thought of such a thing. It does seem to keep White on-message though. Thanks again.
  
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #10 - 07/11/11 at 19:12:38
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Gueler wrote on 07/09/11 at 21:53:31:
Check volume 2, chapter 12, page 199. I have the hard cover edition and I am not sure if the page number corresponds to the paper back edition. Chapter 12 has an introduction to the e6/d5 complex.

The initial move order is significant as Marin is also considering 4. cd5: ed5: 5. d4 transposing into a Tarrasch, on which he comments that “nowadays” it does not have a good reputation and refers the reader to Avrukh and Schandorff.


Yes, the page numbers are the same in the paperback version (although considering how much I've been reading these books I wish I had gone with the hard cover!  Wink

I quite like the transposition to the Tarrasch in this position with 6. cxd5 exd5; 7. d4 Be7; 8. Nc3 0-0; 9. dxc5.  Avrukh gives a thorough analysis in 1. d4 Volume 1 chapter 24 and the positions seem easy to understand OTB and comfortable as White.
  
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #9 - 07/09/11 at 21:53:31
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IMJohnCox wrote on 07/07/11 at 23:47:47:
Suppose the game starts 1 c4 e6 2 g3 d5 3 Nf3 Nf6 4 Bg2 c5 5 00 Nc6. I don't think Marin discusses this exact position at all.


Hi John,

To actually answer your question: Marin does in deed deal with the position you mention, albeit very briefly and through a different move order.

Check volume 2, chapter 12, page 199. I have the hard cover edition and I am not sure if the page number corresponds to the paper back edition. Chapter 12 has an introduction to the e6/d5 complex.

Marin arrives at the position in question via 1. c4 e6  2. g3 d5  3. Bg2 c5  4. Nf3 Nc6  5. 0-0 Nf6
He also mentions 5. … d4

As a reply to 5. … Nf6 he recommends 6. e3 and mentions 6. … dc4: 7. Na3 as well as 6. … Be7 7. b3, transposing to chapter 22 after 7. … 0-0 8. Bb2.

After 6. ... Be7  7. b3, transpositions to chapters 23-25 are of course also possible using other move orders by Black.

The initial move order is significant as Marin is also considering 4. cd5: ed5: 5. d4 transposing into a Tarrasch, on which he comments that “nowadays” it does not have a good reputation and refers the reader to Avrukh and Schandorff.
  
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #8 - 07/09/11 at 03:19:25
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6...cd has been addressed by ECO and NCO; here's the gist of what the latter had to say:  7. Nxd4 Bc5 8. Nb3 Be7 (8...Bb6 9. cd Nxd5 10. Nc3 Nxc3 11. Qxd8+ Nxd8 12. bc +=) 9. cd Nxd5 10. e4 Ndb4 11. Nc3 0-0 12. Be3 +=.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #7 - 07/08/11 at 23:33:45
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[/quote]

Well, that's an old main line of the Catalan. [/quote]

An excellent point which had eluded me. Perhaps that's why this 'problem' turns up so rarely; Black is giving White the chance to force either the Tarrasch or a specific type of Catalan, whereas Black players who go ....Be7 and .....00 and wait for b3 before playing ....c5 don't have to offer a Tarrasch.

Still, it does seem like a genuine lacuna in Marin's repertoire - and indeed mine, prior to noticing it a little while ago.
  
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #6 - 07/08/11 at 20:33:27
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Yeah, but if white wants more than equal game Reti/English has to transpose to Catalan or Tarrasch.. I don't see other way for now.
  
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #5 - 07/08/11 at 20:09:37
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Vass wrote on 07/08/11 at 19:58:22:
And maybe black should respond with 6... dxc4 after 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. Bg2 c5 5. O-O Nc6 6. d4..
But somehow I don't like this for black, so I think I'll have to try 6. d4 in my next games.


Well, that's an old main line of the Catalan.
  
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #4 - 07/08/11 at 19:58:22
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And maybe black should respond with 6... dxc4 after 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. Bg2 c5 5. O-O Nc6 6. d4..
But somehow I don't like this for black, so I think I'll have to try 6. d4 in my next games.
  
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #3 - 07/08/11 at 13:21:24
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I'm looking at 6...cd4 7.Nd4 and I can't find a move I like for Black.

7...Be7 just transposes to back to 6...Be7 7.cd5 lines (often after 7.Nc6 0-0 8.cd5) where 7...cd4 isn't really a critical response.

7...Bc5 is consistent, but then White has several ways to pursue an advantage. The simplest way is 8.Nc6 bc6 9.Qc2, when Black will have to spend a tempo defending the wayward B. But 8.Nb3 may be better:

8...Be7 9.cd5 Nd5 And White has a pleasant array of choices, including 10.e4, 10.Bd2 (which scores well, but wouldn't be my natural first choice) and 10.Nc3

8...Qb6 and 8...e5 are interesting also, but I haven't analysed those yet.

It seems that chessbase considers these to be part of the Catalan constellation, but they really do have a Semi-Tarrasch flavor.

It is interesting that Marin didn't mention this at all, but I don't think it's terribly critical to the repertoire.
  
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #2 - 07/08/11 at 13:05:38
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One of my correspondent games (not finished yet) began with:
1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 e6 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. d3 c5 7. Nc3 d4 8. Na4 Nc6
As a first player in such games I try to check various ideas for white. And I'm interested in every possible setup for white here. The only thing I'm sure of is that 6. b3 is not sufficient for more than equality. And yes, 6... d4 is the right answer.
I've recently tried another setup for white, but somehow I couldn't find more than equality. Here I publish one of my corr games against a strong opponent (with more than 30 years of experience in correspondent chess):
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. Bg2 Be7 5. Qc2!? O-O 6. d4 c5 7. O-O cxd4 8. Nxd4 Nc6 9. Nxc6 bxc6 10. b3 a5 11. Nc3 e5 12. Na4 Rb8 13. Bb2 Bd6 14. Rfd1 Be6 15. Rac1 h6 16. cxd5 cxd5 17. Qc6 Qe7 18. Nb6 Ba3 19. Bxa3 Qxa3 20. Qa4 Qxa4 21. Nxa4 Rfc8 22. e3 Kf8 23. h3 Ke7 24. f4 exf4 25. exf4 Rxc1 26. Rxc1 Rc8 27. Rxc8 Bxc8 28. Kf2 Kd6 29. Ke3 Bb7 1/2-1/2
So I'm still digging for the right setup for white - the one that can promise me more than equality. I feel there has to be in some Tarrasch/semi-Tarrasch waters, indeed.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Question about Marin repertoire
Reply #1 - 07/08/11 at 01:05:18
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This may not be particularly Marin-repertoire related, but 6. Nc3 is actually interesting there. 6. Nc3 d4 7. Na4 produces a Reversed KID variation that, when black plays it, is close to fully respectable, but when white plays it all of the ideas work well (black has a really hard time avoiding b4 ideas). Of course 6...Be7 will head to Tarrasch/Semi-Tarrasch waters.

Anyway, 6. d4 cxd4 7. cxd5 is also a very plausible move instead of 7. Nxd4. I like white in both lines.
  

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Question about Marin repertoire
07/07/11 at 23:47:47
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I'm wondering if there's a bit of a move-order issue with Marin's (wonderful) English books.

Suppose the game starts 1 c4 e6 2 g3 d5 3 Nf3 Nf6 4 Bg2 c5 5 00 Nc6. I don't think Marin discusses this exact position at all. Now, as I understand it 6 b3 is well met by 6...d4 here, because Black has time to get in ...e5 and retake on d4 with the e-pawn, and White's extra tempo + b3 in a Franco-Benoni (or whatever this opening is called) isn't enough to give him a serious chance of an advantage. That's been my experience, anyway.

So I assume that Marin wants one to play 6 d4, after which 6...Be7 would transpose into his anti-Tarrasch repertoire. (6 cxd5 Nxd5 would be what Watson christened the Keres-Parma variation and others call a branch of the semi-Tarrasch, definitely not in Marin's repertoire).

But after 6 d4 it seems to me Black could reasonably play 6...cxd4, when 7 Nxd4 gives a position which every source on the English I have airily says is a line of the Catalan and so beyond the scope of this work, while every Catalan source I have naturally completely ignores it.

Have I missed something in Marin, or can it be that in one small corner of his repertoire one has to do some work for oneself?

And if I am right that this line is omitted, I don't suppose anyone knows of anywhere it's covered, do they?
  
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