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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7 (Read 42191 times)
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #39 - 02/23/12 at 19:43:26
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agropop wrote on 02/23/12 at 17:44:48:
CapNemo wrote on 02/23/12 at 14:39:45:
Hello gentlemen. If I remember correctly, in recent CBM articles on French Advance, Moskalenko has shown... 

You' re in Barcelona and your nick is CapNemo...this is a funny post  Cheesy...do you speak about yourself in third person or it's a joke?

French Defence...revealed!?..  Grin  Grin  Grin
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #38 - 02/23/12 at 17:44:48
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CapNemo wrote on 02/23/12 at 14:39:45:
Hello gentlemen. If I remember correctly, in recent CBM articles on French Advance, Moskalenko has shown... 

You' re in Barcelona and your nick is CapNemo...this is a funny post  Cheesy...do you speak about yourself in third person or it's a joke?
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #37 - 02/23/12 at 14:39:45
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Hello gentlemen. If I remember correctly, in recent CBM articles on French Advance, Moskalenko has shown clear refutation of the Black lines with either early ...Bd7. For the same reason he recommends attacking the d4 pawn directly, or playing the set-up as M. Gurevich 5...Nge7.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #36 - 02/18/12 at 03:49:39
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Krames wrote on 01/12/12 at 21:14:09:
I hope some of you guys will be willing to answer this honest question. I find that the number of variations that I am forced to know in the e4/e5 lines are simply overwhelming. White has so many choices and many of them are relatively deadly if the appropriate response isn't given by black. I find with the French, I'm able to control the direction of the game much better. And I can kind of force the game into or at least towards a few distinct variations. And I have found that by doing so, I'm able to learn more and at least find some repetition in the games, moves, variations that I play and see.


Yes, you are right.  At club level, there's a bewildering number of 1.e4 e5 variations to know and some of them are very sharp.  There are fewer lines to know in the French and if you mess up your move order you don't usually get mated on the spot.  If memory serves, an early repertoire book -- Cafferty's Chess Openings for You -- recommended the French for Black for precisely this reason.   


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What is it about e4/e5 and or d4/d5 that makes many of the better players I speak to recommend those lines?


There's a widely-accepted theory that beginning players should play open games because open games teach basic prinicples, such as speedy development, piece activity, and control of the center. 

That said, there are plenty of well-respected chess teachers who don't insist on this.  A lot depends on the student:  what might be good for a six year-old just starting out, might not be as good for an adult. 

If you are comfortable with the French, stick to the French, and don't worry overmuch about advice from others.   

BTW, if you are looking for new lines to play, you might consider the MacCutcheon against 3.Nc3.  It can be a lot of fun.

Good luck. 
 
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #35 - 01/13/12 at 02:16:54
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Krames wrote on 01/12/12 at 21:14:09:
And I can kind of force the game into or at least towards a few distinct variations. And I have found that by doing so, I'm able to learn more

That's a contradiction. Regardless its theoretical value the French is somewhat limited in ideas. It's always (OK, I'm exaggerating) playing against White's centre with ...c5 and ...f6.
Of course you can remedy this - and I forgot to mention it in my previous post - by playing completely different openings as White and against 1.d4. I am not that dogmatic in that respect.
Moreover 3...c5 4.exd5 exd5 and 3...a6 against the Tarrasch lead to completely different kind of positions as well. In fact, if you don't feel like taking up 1...e5 as Black I would recommend that.

Krames wrote on 01/12/12 at 21:14:09:
What is it about e4/e5 and or d4/d5 that makes many of the better players I speak to recommend those lines?

Piece activity. Which, how conveniently, is also the main point of 3.Nd2 c5 4.exd5 exd5 and 3...a6.

Krames wrote on 01/12/12 at 21:14:09:
I find that the number of variations that I am forced to know in the e4/e5 lines are simply overwhelming.

Emms' repertoire book (imo the most active) is not that big, about 200 pages. Then you'll only need something against the Ruy Lopez, though I'll admit that that is quite difficult.

Now if you indeed decide to stick to the French, but abandon the Rubinstein (which I applaud), buy Uhlmann's Französisch, Richtig gespielt. You might have to make an effort to understand the German, but you will have excellent explanations by an expert.
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #34 - 01/12/12 at 21:14:09
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 01/12/12 at 15:54:46:
I agree with MNb's general advice about what to play as a 1500-1600 player whose main goal is to improve.

However, there are many reasons to play chess. If you're more or less comfortable with your rating and you just want to play the French, then play the French and have fun! It's certainly one of my absolute favorite openings.

I haven't read Williams' book, but the comments here make it sound like a good buy. Of course, there's also John Watson's classic series Play the French. (I call it a series because in each edition, he has gone out of his way to include lines that were not previously covered. Each book has a slightly different emphasis. This isn't always due to the previous lines being busted, but because Watson is trying to give his readers some choices.)


I hope some of you guys will be willing to answer this honest question. I find that the number of variations that I am forced to know in the e4/e5 lines are simply overwhelming. White has so many choices and many of them are relatively deadly if the appropriate response isn't given by black. I find with the French, I'm able to control the direction of the game much better. And I can kind of force the game into or at least towards a few distinct variations. And I have found that by doing so, I'm able to learn more and at least find some repetition in the games, moves, variations that I play and see.

What is it about e4/e5 and or d4/d5 that makes many of the better players I speak to recommend those lines? Thanks so much, and I hope I was able to ask that question in the humble manner in which it was meant. I know I have a lot to learn and I feel lucky to have this forum to help me with my chess.

Thanks,
Ted
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #33 - 01/12/12 at 15:54:46
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I agree with MNb's general advice about what to play as a 1500-1600 player whose main goal is to improve.

However, there are many reasons to play chess. If you're more or less comfortable with your rating and you just want to play the French, then play the French and have fun! It's certainly one of my absolute favorite openings.

I haven't read Williams' book, but the comments here make it sound like a good buy. Of course, there's also John Watson's classic series Play the French. (I call it a series because in each edition, he has gone out of his way to include lines that were not previously covered. Each book has a slightly different emphasis. This isn't always due to the previous lines being busted, but because Watson is trying to give his readers some choices.)
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #32 - 01/11/12 at 01:07:38
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MNb wrote on 01/10/12 at 22:51:28:
There is no need to play the Winawer in a chaotic way. The Black Queen Blues 6...Qa5 is quite solid. In fact I found it hard to create winning chances with it: four solid draws in corr. chess.
To a 1500-1600 player I would say though: play 1...e5 and master the Two Knights.
After comparing the Williams book with the Moskalenko book I intend to try a slightly different approach against the Advance. 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7
-6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Qb6 is just the Milner-Barry Gambit, which in my opinion gives insufficient compensation.
-Williams makes quite a strong point for 6.a3 f6!
-Thus 6.Be2 is strongest and then Qb6 7.O-O (or 7.a3) Nh6 is interesting. In the 6...Nh6 lines the Bishop is useful on d7 as well. Also worth considering is 6.Be2 Qb6 7.a3 c4 avoiding the fianchetto lines.


I pretty much agree with the above. Some minor additions:

1) playing 1...e5 for a while is not a bad idea. Even if you switch to something else later on. You would need something against 3.Bb5 and there 3...Bc5 or 3...Nf6 4. 0-0 Bc5 may be reasonable options which do not require too much theory.

2) About the French.

  • I think Williams' book is more suitable for you. (Moskalenko is probably more useful to more experienced players.) I also like the suggestions Williams made, especially against 3.e5.
  • I would not get too excited about the Wade variation. I tried it for a while but it got quite boring. It may be useful as a system against overly aggressive players. But I would also try some of the other systems (again Williams' book is quite useful here) to widen your horizons a bit. If you stick to the French you might want to have a look at Watson's 'Play the French' as well eventually.
  • As for a good exhaustive treatment of the Wade variation, I cannot remember ever seeing one. 
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #31 - 01/10/12 at 22:51:28
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There is no need to play the Winawer in a chaotic way. The Black Queen Blues 6...Qa5 is quite solid. In fact I found it hard to create winning chances with it: four solid draws in corr. chess.
To a 1500-1600 player I would say though: play 1...e5 and master the Two Knights.
After comparing the Williams book with the Moskalenko book I intend to try a slightly different approach against the Advance. 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7
-6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Qb6 is just the Milner-Barry Gambit, which in my opinion gives insufficient compensation.
-Williams makes quite a strong point for 6.a3 f6!
-Thus 6.Be2 is strongest and then Qb6 7.O-O (or 7.a3) Nh6 is interesting. In the 6...Nh6 lines the Bishop is useful on d7 as well. Also worth considering is 6.Be2 Qb6 7.a3 c4 avoiding the fianchetto lines.
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #30 - 01/10/12 at 17:14:52
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So it has been about 6 months since I began this thread and I've been playing and reading quite a bit since then... While playing the the French sometimes frustrates me, I haven't found a defense to e4 that I like nearly as much. With that being said, I need help in 2 specific places with my development in the French . . .

1. Against the Advance, I still like the Wade Variation best. I just can't find a book that covers it. I'd love to "study" the lines in a bit of depth, I just can't find any good material. Can any of you guys point me in the right direction?

2. Against 3nc3/nd2 I've been playing the Burn/Rubinstein lines which I'm simply not enjoying. Part of me wants to pursue the Winawer, but part of me is simply scared of some of those chaotic positions. . . If you had to point a roughly 1500-1600 elo player to a book covering the Winawer, what would you suggest? Do you like Simon Williams' coverage in his Killer French books/DVDs? Moskalenko's lines/coverage from Flexible French / Wonderful Winawer? Maybe another option entirely? I need a fair amount of text/words/concepts/explanations in my chess books.

Any advice would be VERY much appreciated!!!

Thanks,
Ted
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #29 - 09/15/11 at 16:27:49
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huibui wrote on 09/15/11 at 13:45:01:
But Black can take on d4 on move 5, forcing White to take back with the pawn. 5...cxd4 looks like a good reason not to play 4.Bd3, imO.


Agreed, the correct move order would be to play 5 Nf3 first. It's also by far the most common move.

Alternatives being 5 a3, 5 Be3, 5 f4 as well as 5 Bd3.

  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #28 - 09/15/11 at 13:45:01
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RdC wrote on 09/15/11 at 09:23:12:
As Grishuk demonstrated in the World Cup, taking on d4 with the Knight is also possible, particularly if you don't want to sacrifice a pawn in a well known line.


But Black can take on d4 on move 5, forcing White to take back with the pawn. 5...cxd4 looks like a good reason not to play 4.Bd3, imO.
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #27 - 09/15/11 at 09:23:12
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MNb wrote on 09/14/11 at 20:33:26:
Scissors might lose.
4...Bd7 5.Bd3 Qb6 6.Nf3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nc6 will become a Milner-Barry Gambit.
.



As Grishuk demonstrated in the World Cup, taking on d4 with the Knight is also possible, particularly if you don't want to sacrifice a pawn in a well known line.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #26 - 09/14/11 at 20:33:26
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Scissors might lose.
4...Bd7 5.Bd3 Qb6 6.Nf3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nc6 will become a Milner-Barry Gambit.
4...Bd7 5.Bd3 Qb6 6.dxc5 Bxc5 7.Qe2 a5 and Black might benefit from not having played ...Nc6 yet.
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #25 - 09/14/11 at 20:22:53
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I think it's actually a bit rock paper scissors.

Rock: Black plays ...Qb6 first: white can delay Nf3 and play a3, and unless Black wants to go Nc6, he's stuck not having forced Nf3, which may or may not be an improvement for White.

Paper: Black plays 4...Nc6 first: White will generally respond with Nf3, so that he can meet ...Qb6 with a2-a3.

Scissors: Black plays ...Bd7 first: White need not play either Nf3 or a3, and the lack of pressure on d4 means that 5 Bd3 is suggested.
  
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