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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7 (Read 48682 times)
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #39 - 02/23/12 at 19:43:26
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agropop wrote on 02/23/12 at 17:44:48:
CapNemo wrote on 02/23/12 at 14:39:45:
Hello gentlemen. If I remember correctly, in recent CBM articles on French Advance, Moskalenko has shown... 

You' re in Barcelona and your nick is CapNemo...this is a funny post  Cheesy...do you speak about yourself in third person or it's a joke?

French Defence...revealed!?..  Grin  Grin  Grin
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #38 - 02/23/12 at 17:44:48
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CapNemo wrote on 02/23/12 at 14:39:45:
Hello gentlemen. If I remember correctly, in recent CBM articles on French Advance, Moskalenko has shown... 

You' re in Barcelona and your nick is CapNemo...this is a funny post  Cheesy...do you speak about yourself in third person or it's a joke?
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #37 - 02/23/12 at 14:39:45
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Hello gentlemen. If I remember correctly, in recent CBM articles on French Advance, Moskalenko has shown clear refutation of the Black lines with either early ...Bd7. For the same reason he recommends attacking the d4 pawn directly, or playing the set-up as M. Gurevich 5...Nge7.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #36 - 02/18/12 at 03:49:39
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Krames wrote on 01/12/12 at 21:14:09:
I hope some of you guys will be willing to answer this honest question. I find that the number of variations that I am forced to know in the e4/e5 lines are simply overwhelming. White has so many choices and many of them are relatively deadly if the appropriate response isn't given by black. I find with the French, I'm able to control the direction of the game much better. And I can kind of force the game into or at least towards a few distinct variations. And I have found that by doing so, I'm able to learn more and at least find some repetition in the games, moves, variations that I play and see.


Yes, you are right.  At club level, there's a bewildering number of 1.e4 e5 variations to know and some of them are very sharp.  There are fewer lines to know in the French and if you mess up your move order you don't usually get mated on the spot.  If memory serves, an early repertoire book -- Cafferty's Chess Openings for You -- recommended the French for Black for precisely this reason.   


Quote:
What is it about e4/e5 and or d4/d5 that makes many of the better players I speak to recommend those lines?


There's a widely-accepted theory that beginning players should play open games because open games teach basic prinicples, such as speedy development, piece activity, and control of the center. 

That said, there are plenty of well-respected chess teachers who don't insist on this.  A lot depends on the student:  what might be good for a six year-old just starting out, might not be as good for an adult. 

If you are comfortable with the French, stick to the French, and don't worry overmuch about advice from others.   

BTW, if you are looking for new lines to play, you might consider the MacCutcheon against 3.Nc3.  It can be a lot of fun.

Good luck. 
 
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #35 - 01/13/12 at 02:16:54
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Krames wrote on 01/12/12 at 21:14:09:
And I can kind of force the game into or at least towards a few distinct variations. And I have found that by doing so, I'm able to learn more

That's a contradiction. Regardless its theoretical value the French is somewhat limited in ideas. It's always (OK, I'm exaggerating) playing against White's centre with ...c5 and ...f6.
Of course you can remedy this - and I forgot to mention it in my previous post - by playing completely different openings as White and against 1.d4. I am not that dogmatic in that respect.
Moreover 3...c5 4.exd5 exd5 and 3...a6 against the Tarrasch lead to completely different kind of positions as well. In fact, if you don't feel like taking up 1...e5 as Black I would recommend that.

Krames wrote on 01/12/12 at 21:14:09:
What is it about e4/e5 and or d4/d5 that makes many of the better players I speak to recommend those lines?

Piece activity. Which, how conveniently, is also the main point of 3.Nd2 c5 4.exd5 exd5 and 3...a6.

Krames wrote on 01/12/12 at 21:14:09:
I find that the number of variations that I am forced to know in the e4/e5 lines are simply overwhelming.

Emms' repertoire book (imo the most active) is not that big, about 200 pages. Then you'll only need something against the Ruy Lopez, though I'll admit that that is quite difficult.

Now if you indeed decide to stick to the French, but abandon the Rubinstein (which I applaud), buy Uhlmann's Französisch, Richtig gespielt. You might have to make an effort to understand the German, but you will have excellent explanations by an expert.
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #34 - 01/12/12 at 21:14:09
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 01/12/12 at 15:54:46:
I agree with MNb's general advice about what to play as a 1500-1600 player whose main goal is to improve.

However, there are many reasons to play chess. If you're more or less comfortable with your rating and you just want to play the French, then play the French and have fun! It's certainly one of my absolute favorite openings.

I haven't read Williams' book, but the comments here make it sound like a good buy. Of course, there's also John Watson's classic series Play the French. (I call it a series because in each edition, he has gone out of his way to include lines that were not previously covered. Each book has a slightly different emphasis. This isn't always due to the previous lines being busted, but because Watson is trying to give his readers some choices.)


I hope some of you guys will be willing to answer this honest question. I find that the number of variations that I am forced to know in the e4/e5 lines are simply overwhelming. White has so many choices and many of them are relatively deadly if the appropriate response isn't given by black. I find with the French, I'm able to control the direction of the game much better. And I can kind of force the game into or at least towards a few distinct variations. And I have found that by doing so, I'm able to learn more and at least find some repetition in the games, moves, variations that I play and see.

What is it about e4/e5 and or d4/d5 that makes many of the better players I speak to recommend those lines? Thanks so much, and I hope I was able to ask that question in the humble manner in which it was meant. I know I have a lot to learn and I feel lucky to have this forum to help me with my chess.

Thanks,
Ted
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #33 - 01/12/12 at 15:54:46
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I agree with MNb's general advice about what to play as a 1500-1600 player whose main goal is to improve.

However, there are many reasons to play chess. If you're more or less comfortable with your rating and you just want to play the French, then play the French and have fun! It's certainly one of my absolute favorite openings.

I haven't read Williams' book, but the comments here make it sound like a good buy. Of course, there's also John Watson's classic series Play the French. (I call it a series because in each edition, he has gone out of his way to include lines that were not previously covered. Each book has a slightly different emphasis. This isn't always due to the previous lines being busted, but because Watson is trying to give his readers some choices.)
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #32 - 01/11/12 at 01:07:38
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MNb wrote on 01/10/12 at 22:51:28:
There is no need to play the Winawer in a chaotic way. The Black Queen Blues 6...Qa5 is quite solid. In fact I found it hard to create winning chances with it: four solid draws in corr. chess.
To a 1500-1600 player I would say though: play 1...e5 and master the Two Knights.
After comparing the Williams book with the Moskalenko book I intend to try a slightly different approach against the Advance. 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7
-6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Qb6 is just the Milner-Barry Gambit, which in my opinion gives insufficient compensation.
-Williams makes quite a strong point for 6.a3 f6!
-Thus 6.Be2 is strongest and then Qb6 7.O-O (or 7.a3) Nh6 is interesting. In the 6...Nh6 lines the Bishop is useful on d7 as well. Also worth considering is 6.Be2 Qb6 7.a3 c4 avoiding the fianchetto lines.


I pretty much agree with the above. Some minor additions:

1) playing 1...e5 for a while is not a bad idea. Even if you switch to something else later on. You would need something against 3.Bb5 and there 3...Bc5 or 3...Nf6 4. 0-0 Bc5 may be reasonable options which do not require too much theory.

2) About the French.

  • I think Williams' book is more suitable for you. (Moskalenko is probably more useful to more experienced players.) I also like the suggestions Williams made, especially against 3.e5.
  • I would not get too excited about the Wade variation. I tried it for a while but it got quite boring. It may be useful as a system against overly aggressive players. But I would also try some of the other systems (again Williams' book is quite useful here) to widen your horizons a bit. If you stick to the French you might want to have a look at Watson's 'Play the French' as well eventually.
  • As for a good exhaustive treatment of the Wade variation, I cannot remember ever seeing one. 
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #31 - 01/10/12 at 22:51:28
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There is no need to play the Winawer in a chaotic way. The Black Queen Blues 6...Qa5 is quite solid. In fact I found it hard to create winning chances with it: four solid draws in corr. chess.
To a 1500-1600 player I would say though: play 1...e5 and master the Two Knights.
After comparing the Williams book with the Moskalenko book I intend to try a slightly different approach against the Advance. 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7
-6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Qb6 is just the Milner-Barry Gambit, which in my opinion gives insufficient compensation.
-Williams makes quite a strong point for 6.a3 f6!
-Thus 6.Be2 is strongest and then Qb6 7.O-O (or 7.a3) Nh6 is interesting. In the 6...Nh6 lines the Bishop is useful on d7 as well. Also worth considering is 6.Be2 Qb6 7.a3 c4 avoiding the fianchetto lines.
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #30 - 01/10/12 at 17:14:52
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So it has been about 6 months since I began this thread and I've been playing and reading quite a bit since then... While playing the the French sometimes frustrates me, I haven't found a defense to e4 that I like nearly as much. With that being said, I need help in 2 specific places with my development in the French . . .

1. Against the Advance, I still like the Wade Variation best. I just can't find a book that covers it. I'd love to "study" the lines in a bit of depth, I just can't find any good material. Can any of you guys point me in the right direction?

2. Against 3nc3/nd2 I've been playing the Burn/Rubinstein lines which I'm simply not enjoying. Part of me wants to pursue the Winawer, but part of me is simply scared of some of those chaotic positions. . . If you had to point a roughly 1500-1600 elo player to a book covering the Winawer, what would you suggest? Do you like Simon Williams' coverage in his Killer French books/DVDs? Moskalenko's lines/coverage from Flexible French / Wonderful Winawer? Maybe another option entirely? I need a fair amount of text/words/concepts/explanations in my chess books.

Any advice would be VERY much appreciated!!!

Thanks,
Ted
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #29 - 09/15/11 at 16:27:49
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huibui wrote on 09/15/11 at 13:45:01:
But Black can take on d4 on move 5, forcing White to take back with the pawn. 5...cxd4 looks like a good reason not to play 4.Bd3, imO.


Agreed, the correct move order would be to play 5 Nf3 first. It's also by far the most common move.

Alternatives being 5 a3, 5 Be3, 5 f4 as well as 5 Bd3.

  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #28 - 09/15/11 at 13:45:01
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RdC wrote on 09/15/11 at 09:23:12:
As Grishuk demonstrated in the World Cup, taking on d4 with the Knight is also possible, particularly if you don't want to sacrifice a pawn in a well known line.


But Black can take on d4 on move 5, forcing White to take back with the pawn. 5...cxd4 looks like a good reason not to play 4.Bd3, imO.
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #27 - 09/15/11 at 09:23:12
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MNb wrote on 09/14/11 at 20:33:26:
Scissors might lose.
4...Bd7 5.Bd3 Qb6 6.Nf3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nc6 will become a Milner-Barry Gambit.
.



As Grishuk demonstrated in the World Cup, taking on d4 with the Knight is also possible, particularly if you don't want to sacrifice a pawn in a well known line.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #26 - 09/14/11 at 20:33:26
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Scissors might lose.
4...Bd7 5.Bd3 Qb6 6.Nf3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Nc6 will become a Milner-Barry Gambit.
4...Bd7 5.Bd3 Qb6 6.dxc5 Bxc5 7.Qe2 a5 and Black might benefit from not having played ...Nc6 yet.
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #25 - 09/14/11 at 20:22:53
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I think it's actually a bit rock paper scissors.

Rock: Black plays ...Qb6 first: white can delay Nf3 and play a3, and unless Black wants to go Nc6, he's stuck not having forced Nf3, which may or may not be an improvement for White.

Paper: Black plays 4...Nc6 first: White will generally respond with Nf3, so that he can meet ...Qb6 with a2-a3.

Scissors: Black plays ...Bd7 first: White need not play either Nf3 or a3, and the lack of pressure on d4 means that 5 Bd3 is suggested.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #24 - 09/14/11 at 18:33:58
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Interesting post. As I like the (4...Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3) a5!?-line for Black, I wonder whether White can avoid this after 5.a3 a5...

I agree that White is very comfortable in your game against the FM, maybe 7...Bb5 just doesn't work so well there and Black should play 7...Nc6.

Black could consider playing 4...Bd7 instead of 4...Qb6, as here 5.a3 probably doesn't work (5...Nc6), and after the normal 5.Nf3 Black could go 5...Qb6, having avoided the whole problem posed by your move-order.
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #23 - 09/12/11 at 08:42:44
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In the position arising after

1.e4 e6
2.d4 d5
3.e5 c5
4.c3 Qb6,

I have three things to comment on:

A) If black wants to avoid the sharp c4!? variations (where the white player accentuates that Bd7-b5 is a rather time wasting maneuver in the resulting transformed position), he has to take first on d4, as previous posts have already mentioned. Alas, White retakes with the Knight (!), preventing the initial Bb5 idea. Giving up d4 is not a problem, the inclined reader will notice the similarities to the variation 4...Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Be2 Qb6, when white has good prospects after taking on c5 (either now or after O-O, not fearing cxd4 cxd4 Nge7 -> f5 because of the standard defensive resource Nc3-a4).

A recent high-class encounter in this variation was fought out in Grischuk - Morozevich in the current World Cup tournament.

B) After 4...Nc6, the first player usually goes for 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.a3!. Out of this reasoning, the first player is well advised o go for

4...Qb6 5.a3!?

As the queen is already on b6, the white player will not get into transposition problems to Bd7 lines, which are considered harmless (i.e. 4..Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3?! (6.Le2) and now either f6 or c4 give black enough play). White achieves two things by this seemingly harmless move, both being connected with the move "won" by not having moved the Ng1 yet. First, White can speed up the counterplay on the c-file, preventing the white square clamp that black often tries to establish. Moreover, the f1-a7 diagonal is not as appealing for the black queen anymore, as white can easily castle following Ng-e2. Finally, black will not be able to overload white's defence of d4 due to the time consuming bishop trade. Hence white does not have to put his knight on f3 anyway. In my opinion, he is good advised to put his knight on the strategically most lucrative square, which is h5.

In a recent rapid game played by myself two days ago against a 2350 FM, play continued

4...Qb6
5.a3!? Bd7
6.b4 cxd4
7.cxd4 Bb5
8.Bxb5 Qxb5
9.Nc3 Qd7 (Qc4/c6 stumbles into a swift Rc1, Qb6 lacks the punch as d4 will not get into pressure and grants white a tempo by the means of Na4)
10.Nge2 Ne7
11.Nf4! and the threat of Nh5, putting pressure on the vital dark squares, forced black to continue with 11..g6, which already gives white some weaknesses to play against. After

12.h4!? (Nd3 -> Bg5 is also very interesting) Bg7
13.h5 Nc6
14.O-O O-O-O
15.Bb2 Kb8
16.Nd3! b6
17.a4! Nxd4
18.a5 ->

White enjoyed quite an advantage, eventually converting his dangerous initiative into a full point.

It should be added that 4...Qb6 5.a3!? c4?!, despite being played twice against me in tournament games by players around 2100, is IMHO an inaccurate move order. With the knight still on g1, white has more freedom on the kingside, and can utilize this in several ways (e.g. an easy f4).

C) Sadly, somewhere in this post I forgot the third point I wanted to address.

Cheers,

Geck0
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #22 - 07/22/11 at 08:38:08
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Quote:
yes, the idea of 6.Be2 is to prevent the immediate ...Bb5, which 6.Bd3 allows.


This makes sense. It could also be the reason Hector hasn't played this against to many high-rated players I guess.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #21 - 07/22/11 at 08:32:55
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yes, the idea of 6.Be2 is to prevent the immediate ...Bb5, which 6.Bd3 allows.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #20 - 07/21/11 at 23:14:55
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fling wrote on 07/21/11 at 22:06:29:
After 6 ...a5, White can probably play Bd3 and argue that he gets a better version of the Barry-Milner gambit since he has access to the b5-square.

An old idea, that was played by Jonny Hector (he has 4,5/5 in this line after 7 ...Bd7) just the other day against Emanuel Berg is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. 0-0!? Here most Black players have transposed into more regular lines with 7 ...Bd7, instead of taking on c3. Apparently, he has also played the same line, with 5 ...Bd7 instead of 5 ...Nc6. This has only occured in one game against a player sub-2000, though.

What do you think about this gambit?


It is probably fine for Black to accept, but I doubt White is seriously worse; the question is if Black isn't going to continue dxc3 or Ne7, why did he exchange unforced?  Why not just 6 ...Bb5 (I'm assuming the Wade 5...Bd7 here)?  Hector-Bartel 2010 went 7 dxc5 Bxc5 8 b4 Bxd3 9 Qxd3 Be7 10 0-0 Nd7 11 Na3 a6 12 c4, with a draw after some adventures that mostly look dangerous for White.

I guess my point is that without the knight on c6, the position really is different.  I don't know much about the Milner-Barry (I've begun investigating the Wade, which is a different animal entirely) so I'll keep quiet on 7 0-0 with 5...Nc6.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #19 - 07/21/11 at 22:48:21
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kylemeister wrote on 07/21/11 at 22:26:24:
That was against one of the "lesser" players (against Berg Hector apparently innovated decisively against the 6. Bg5 Nbd7 Najdorf).   



Sorry, just went to bed and started thinking about it. It was against Jonathan Westeberg iirc. He is the Swedish junior Champ I think. Against Berg it was the Najdorf. A big crushing home prep with a knight sac at b5.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #18 - 07/21/11 at 22:26:24
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That was against one of the "lesser" players (against Berg Hector apparently innovated decisively against the 6. Bg5 Nbd7 Najdorf).   
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #17 - 07/21/11 at 22:06:29
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After 6 ...a5, White can probably play Bd3 and argue that he gets a better version of the Barry-Milner gambit since he has access to the b5-square.

An old idea, that was played by Jonny Hector (he has 4,5/5 in this line after 7 ...Bd7) just the other day against Emanuel Berg is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. 0-0!? Here most Black players have transposed into more regular lines with 7 ...Bd7, instead of taking on c3. Apparently, he has also played the same line, with 5 ...Bd7 instead of 5 ...Nc6. This has only occured in one game against a player sub-2000, though.

What do you think about this gambit?
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #16 - 07/21/11 at 17:55:50
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Quote:
@orangeCounty : you are totally right in saying that ...Bb5 is not forced in the mentioned line. It is a warning to the original poster, since ...Bb5 was Black's primary goal. Moreover ...Bb5 becomes less and less feasable as White develops, for instance 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3 a5 7.Be2 a4 (seizing space and preventing Qb3) 8.0-0 Bb5? 9.c4 dxc4 10.Nbd2 is ideal for White.

The "third setup" Bd7/Nc6 without Qb6 is an important line. Here a3 wastes tempo and Bd3 leads to a gambit, so White often plays Be2 at once. 


It's probably best to avoid 6...a5 and get 6...Bb5 in, maybe trying 9...Ne7 instead of 9...Nd7, to meet 10 Nc3 with 10...Qd7 and 11...Nbc6.  I can't see an obvious way to exploit the blocking of the Bf8; maybe there's something with Qg4 but the most popular move in the position is actually Qd1-d3 (already we're down to 17 games with this position, 6 players chose Qd3), which of course rules that out.  Interestingly, back in 1995, a not-yet-GM Sergei Volkov won a nice game (He played ...Ne7 earlier, and reached the position by transposition).

This plan appears to get a decent Wade type position, with an open c file and no light square B's.  White has a very nice lead in development, but it doesn't appear to mean much.  I bet the computers like White's chances, but I would be pretty comfortable defending Black's position.  The only way you can really lose is by allowing White to dominate the C line (well, okay, you can get mated on the kingside, but that's going to take a while with no B on the b1-h7).


  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #15 - 07/21/11 at 16:36:21
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dom wrote on 07/21/11 at 11:00:35:
Quote:
[off-topic] The gambit itself 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.0-0 [instead of the standard 7.cxd4 Qb6 8.0-0 Nxd4] 7...dxc3 Nxc3 makes wonders in blitz, it could be labelled a "dangerous weapon". Has it been discussed here or in chess litterature?


I am not sure...but I think I read this line in Tim Harding's book "Four gambits to beat the French" chapter about the Millner-Barry gambit.

I recorded it in my ebook on variations because it is specific, with a little work to be done, since there are all knights on the board, if we compare position with Millner-Barry....then White (resp. Black) has to imagine specific plan  of center attack (resp. development).


I checked the line at home and I am pretty sure the line is NOT in Harding's book....but...there is one good system for Black (I always try to give Black good lines  Smiley )

7.oo Qb6 and now

A) 8.Qe2 Nge7!? (instead of dxc3 ; Stets-Malykin,Pavlograd 2000) and now White has no better than enter the Millner Barry with cx4 because:

9.a3 (Garcia-Cardenas Serrano, La Havanne 1991) Ng6

9.Kh1 Ng6 10.cxd4 Nxd4 11.Nxd4 Qxd4 12.f4 Bc5

9.Rd1 dxc3 (Flitney-Baider, 2007)

Ng8-Ne7-Ng6 plan is less known than Ng8-Ne7-Nc6

B) 8.Re1 Nge7 and White has no better than transposition to line Millner Barry with Re1 after 9.cxd4 Nxd4

C) 8.a3 Nge7 (Garcia-Huerta,La Havanne 1992) 9.b4 Ng6 or 9.cxd4 Nxd4 with an improved Millner Barry (because White lost tempo with a3)

D) 8.Nbd2 dxc3 (only now...since b1 knight has moved to not so active square)
« Last Edit: 07/21/11 at 19:17:29 by dom »  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #14 - 07/21/11 at 11:00:35
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Quote:
[off-topic] The gambit itself 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.0-0 [instead of the standard 7.cxd4 Qb6 8.0-0 Nxd4] 7...dxc3 Nxc3 makes wonders in blitz, it could be labelled a "dangerous weapon". Has it been discussed here or in chess litterature?


I am not sure...but I think I read this line in Tim Harding's book "Four gambits to beat the French" chapter about the Millner-Barry gambit.

I recorded it in my ebook on variations because it is specific, with a little work to be done, since there are all knights on the board, if we compare position with Millner-Barry....then White (resp. Black) has to imagine specific plan  of center attack (resp. development).
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #13 - 07/21/11 at 09:42:11
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@orangeCounty : you are totally right in saying that ...Bb5 is not forced in the mentioned line. It is a warning to the original poster, since ...Bb5 was Black's primary goal. Moreover ...Bb5 becomes less and less feasable as White develops, for instance 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.a3 a5 7.Be2 a4 (seizing space and preventing Qb3) 8.0-0 Bb5? 9.c4 dxc4 10.Nbd2 is ideal for White.

The "third setup" Bd7/Nc6 without Qb6 is an important line. Here a3 wastes tempo and Bd3 leads to a gambit, so White often plays Be2 at once. 

[off-topic] The gambit itself 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.0-0 [instead of the standard 7.cxd4 Qb6 8.0-0 Nxd4] 7...dxc3 Nxc3 makes wonders in blitz, it could be labelled a "dangerous weapon". Has it been discussed here or in chess litterature?
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #12 - 07/20/11 at 19:10:38
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I hadn't thought about it that way, as three setups rather than two: I just envisioned the Wade (Qb6 & Bd7) and the "Normal" setup with both those moves and Nc6 in some order.

[Purely idle thoughts - no computer -:

In your line: "6.a3 Bb5 7.b4 cxd4 8.Bxb5 Qxb5 9.cxd4 Nd7 10.Nc3," I don't think 6... Bb5 or 9... Nd7 are forced.  As you note, 6...a5 7 Be2 Bb5? is bad, but Black isn't forced to play ...Bb5 immediately; 7...Na6 looks interesting, planning to play ...Ne7, ...Nc7, and possibly ...Qc6 and ...b7-b5.  7...Bxe2 and 8...c4 could be playable, although to get counterplay you have to go ...f6 eventually..., and with cxd4 played, 9...Ne7 comes into consideration.]





  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #11 - 07/19/11 at 18:46:37
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Note that White can also play with a3, which is never wrong against ...Qb6 lines.

For instance 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6/Bd7 5.Nf3 Bd7/Qb6 6.a3 Bb5 7.b4 cxd4 8.Bxb5 Qxb5 9.cxd4 Nd7 10.Nc3. Here Black can't really dominate the a6-f1 diagonal with 10...Qa6 due to White's slow but effective plan of Bd2,a4,b5 (or Nb5). 10...Qc4 is not advisable either, because White can regroup with e.g. Bb2, Ne2,Nd2, Rc1. Perhaps 10...Qc6 11. Na4 is simplest, with an equalish game. You may want to play 6...a5 to prevent b4, but beware of the trap 7.Be2 Bb5? (7...Nc6 is normal) 8.Qb3 c4 9.Qc2 ruining your plans.

As for White playing an early Nf3, this is for the sake of simplicity. Black has 3 basic setups in the Advance : Bd7/Nc6, Qb6/Nc6, Qb6/Bd7. White wants to react differently against each one, for instance a3 is more effective against Qb6 and Be2 is more effective against Bd7. But in all cases Nf3 is part of his setup, so it is played first, waiting for Black to commit. Black in turn can play ball with Nh6, but this is another story.

Welcome to the difficult world of the French Advance!  
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #10 - 07/19/11 at 17:37:00
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I agree that one of the main advantages of the Wade is delaying ...Nc6 gives White move order problems.  Of course, it also solves some (White isn't forced into Nf3, and can block the d-file if he goes for Nf3), but these are minor issues in the Advance anyway.  I forget the move order, but there's one place you can actually play Bb5(-a6), ...Nd7, ...Ne7, and ...Ne7-c6.  At that point, unless White is doing something like playing f5, Black has to be better.
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #9 - 07/18/11 at 22:17:16
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I've found that the Wade Variation usually confuses players up to ~1900 strength (USCF). Beyond that, it's still sound(ish), but nothing special.

I like to play Qb6 and Bd7 and only then decide whether to play Nc6. The threat of the Wade will get strong players thinking more about their move orders. Keres and Barcza believed that 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3?! cd4 7.cd4 was already equal, with Black having excellent practical chances to gain an advantage. (ECO 1981)

  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #8 - 07/18/11 at 21:04:57
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Nbd2 is usually met by Nh6, but if you're planning Bb5/a4, there isn't really a need; Black can just play Bb5, e.g., 6. Nbd2 Bb5 7. Nb3 Bxf1 8. Kxf1 Nc6.  White can't get the two bishops, and both of Black's knights can get to d4 rapidly; Nc6xd4 followed by Ne7-c6.

I would think Black is happy in this line with trading anything except White's dark squared bishop - and even that can go if necessary.  Ideally, the ending Black wants is double rooks and a knight against White's Bc1 (I think).  Getting the Queens off is usually good (Black isn't likely to have a kingside attack anyway), and White knights on d4 are annoying.

[Don't take that bishop on e3; giving White the f-file and support for the d4 square is not a good trade for a tall pawn.]

What's the teeth in the Nb3 plan?
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #7 - 07/18/11 at 19:36:24
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Thanks for all of the responses . . .
I just got back from the park (Bryant Park in NYC) and had a pretty good run in a few blitz games using this line. I'm going to find out as much as I can about this variation, it feels pretty "natural" to me and I got a few wins today with the black pieces. Full disclosure - I had a WON GAME with the white pieces in a Closed Sicilian against a MUCH stronger player, and I blew it. . . .
  
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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #6 - 07/18/11 at 18:06:53
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The Nun line must be played by White if Black plays: 6.Nbd2!? cxd4
because of 7.cxd4 Nc6 8.Bd3 (to succeed castling) Nxd4 9.oo  or an quick ending with 8.Bxb5 Qxb5 9.Qe2 Qxe2+ 10.Kxe2
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #5 - 07/18/11 at 17:48:07
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An interesting move is 6.Nbd2 f6!?
Black wants to keep a Ba4 pin and removal of e5 pawn.
Maybe White has to change for a Millner Barry (Nun sub var) plan giving specific position 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.oo cxd4 9.cxd4 Nxd4 10.Nxd4 Qxd4 11.Nf3
  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #4 - 07/18/11 at 17:43:56
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Sometimes Black wants to counter the Nb3 move in the 6.Nbd2 line with the pin Ba4 as given by Eingorn.

6.Nbd2!? Nh6 7(Dvoirys-Eingorn, Geneve 2001) 7. Nb3 Ba4!? 8.Bxh6 gxh6 9.dxc5 (forced) Bxc5 10.Qd2 Bxb3 11.axb3 Nc6 (if 11..Qxb3 White has two pawns down BUT initiative) 12.Qc2 Rc8 13.Ra4 ... (Collins)

  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #3 - 07/18/11 at 17:35:36
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Yes, "Wade variation [C02]" if Black doesn't play Nc6 and prefers an early Bb5.

White has one main system with Be2/Bd3 and then Zaitsev's move c4!? in some lines. Usually followed by dxc4 and after the d4 pawn can move forward. Some authors advice an early cxd4 for Black to counter this plan.

Alternate and mode modern strategy is maybe for White to play 6.Nbd2!? with two ideas: to play c4 vs Bb5 or to play Nb3, with a good blockade square on d4 after a later dxc5. Eingorn and Sveshnikov's books about French Advance gave very good ideas in that line (I recall that Sveshnikov advices for the Advance French).



  

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Re: C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #2 - 07/18/11 at 15:03:59
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Thanks so much.
I'll take a look at what has already been written.
And thanks for telling me that this is Wade variation, I didn't know that and this should make my search a little easier.
Thanks again!

-Ted
  
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Re: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
Reply #1 - 07/18/11 at 12:53:41
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Welcome to the Chess Pub Krames!

This is called the "Wade Variation". There are already several threads discussing this variation. While you're welcome to start a new thread, you may also want to peruse some of the older threads for answers to your questions.

Here's a link to one of the most recent discussions:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1296745190/15
  
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C02: French Advance ...Qb6 & ...Bd7
07/18/11 at 12:48:31
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Gentlemen,

I'm new to this site, and very happy to be here as I'm doing my best to improve my game. The French was the first defense against 1 e4 I ever looked at in any depth. After looking around at other systems/options/defenses I'm back to where I began as I feel most comfortable here, with the French.

I'd like to get your opinions on the following line in the Advance (this is a line from McDonald's How to Play Against 1e4). . .

1 e4 e6
2 d4 d5
3 e5 c5
4 c3 Qb6
5 Nf3 Bd7

The simple idea early on is too trade off the light square bishop and or make it difficult for black to castle on the king side. I've played this line a few times recently with some decent success otb. In an effort to learn a bit more about this line I picked up a few books on the French only to find that it isn't really mentioned. The Flexible French doesn't include it and Uhlman either never played it or simply didn't include it in his "Winning w the French". Uhlman plays ...Nc3 before being able to develop the light square bishop to b5.

Would any of you mind offering some basic ideas concerning the drawback to the McDonald system mentioned above? Or maybe you'd prefer to offer some insights into the superiority of the earlier Nc3 move. Or maybe you can even point me towards another place to find a deeper look at the ...Qb6 & ...Bd7 ideas - that would be great too.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. And thanks in advance for any responses.

-Ted
  
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