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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon? (Read 48427 times)
Schaakhamster
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #29 - 08/24/11 at 19:02:44
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/23/11 at 00:17:26:
OrangeCounty wrote on 08/22/11 at 17:10:29:
I'm not sure why amateurs are always advised to play with an open center, even at the cost of an equal (as white) or worse position.  I would play the Winawer every game if my opponents would essay a move other than 4 e5 reliably.


This is one of the biggest reasons the French is a strong recommendation on the club level.

Even more so since a lot of coaches insist on recommending the tepid 4. c4 Exchange, a line that I can have a black player ready to play and win against in less than 30 minutes.

As a coach I'd feel like I was stunting my students by recommending harmless ideas just because I had some dogma I had to pursue.


You realise your reaction is also quite dogmatic?
  
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #28 - 08/23/11 at 14:31:39
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/23/11 at 00:17:26:
[quote author=425348454D404F4546210 link=1311042401/25#25 date=1314033029]
Even more so since a lot of coaches insist on recommending the tepid 4. c4 Exchange, a line that I can have a black player ready to play and win against in less than 30 minutes.

As a coach I'd feel like I was stunting my students by recommending harmless ideas just because I had some dogma I had to pursue.


To be honest, I think any coach who recommends a special variation (or opening) for every student, is just a horrible bad one. As well as someone who recommends lines only because those lines require a lesser amount of  work (which usually means THEY have to do a lesser amount of work).

I give several positions from different lines to them, let them look at it for some time, ask them how they feel about it, what to move, etc.
After some time I get a picture about their playing style. If they prefer closed positions or open ones etc.

The choice of the opening for a player  has to depend on the type of that player. There is no other match.

  

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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #27 - 08/23/11 at 14:04:34
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Well said, Bryan!

  
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BPaulsen
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #26 - 08/23/11 at 00:17:26
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/22/11 at 17:10:29:
I'm not sure why amateurs are always advised to play with an open center, even at the cost of an equal (as white) or worse position.  I would play the Winawer every game if my opponents would essay a move other than 4 e5 reliably.


This is one of the biggest reasons the French is a strong recommendation on the club level.

Even more so since a lot of coaches insist on recommending the tepid 4. c4 Exchange, a line that I can have a black player ready to play and win against in less than 30 minutes.

As a coach I'd feel like I was stunting my students by recommending harmless ideas just because I had some dogma I had to pursue.
  

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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #25 - 08/22/11 at 17:10:29
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I don't know that 3.Nc3 planning exd5 is necessarily safer than playing and learning the Advance; certainly Black has his chances in those lines as well.  The advantage of the French Defense (as I see it) is the ability of the second player to complicate and avoid symmetry (the reply to the French I dislike meeting most is the Exchange, even though one's results are perfectly fine against it).  You're going to have to learn something to play the French, something about pawn structure and thematic chess - which isn't necessarily true of every opening - and the Advance suits the bill.

I'm not sure why amateurs are always advised to play with an open center, even at the cost of an equal (as white) or worse position.  I would play the Winawer every game if my opponents would essay a move other than 4 e5 reliably.
  
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #24 - 08/21/11 at 09:46:29
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If you chose the Advance you should be careful to chose safe lines around Be2 first, because there is some risk that White's center is destroyed quickly if he is not careful.
If you chose the Advance you are a bit inflexible which is a disadvantage if your games are in databases and your opponents prepare for you.

I think if you want to enlarge your repertoire later, then 3.Nc3 is a better choice
than the Advance. You always have delayed exchange variations as backup lines, where
some Frenchies become a bit too confident in a practical game.
I think 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 followed by 4.exd5 is a modest way to start. 3...dxe4 does not need much preparation if you are content with an equal game.

Next step where only modest preparation is necessary:

3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 which has some venom and is covered by chesspublishing.
3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4
                        Bb4 5.exd5
                        Be7 5.e5 Nd7 6.Bxe7

(I have made bad experience with
3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5, because Black has some
move-order tricks and some very sharp lines,
which are maybe not completely sound
but difficult to play for an unprepared White player.)   

3.Nc3 Nc6 should not be underestimated,
there is much material in chesspublishing.

If you want to do so you can upgrade to mainlines whenever you like. Fighting against the Winawer I recommand Moskalenko's book, because it is very inspiring for White players too.
  
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #23 - 08/18/11 at 04:10:06
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Rather than argue whether it's += or = in the long run (and in the long run, we're all dead), perhaps it would be fruitful to discuss what sort of chances White has.

If instead of looking at drawing rates, we look at thematic positions where white has an enduring attack, I'm sure that just about everyone will agree that the Advance Variation has plenty of poison.

Any French player who dismisses the Advance Variation as equal without analysing it is doomed to lose to it.
  
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #22 - 08/18/11 at 02:58:33
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This is all a bit silly. Best? Drawn? +=? =?

Nobody knows really.

So, just choose what you want to ply. Study it, play through some games, play it, best of luck.
  
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #21 - 08/17/11 at 23:59:12
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Akavall wrote on 08/13/11 at 21:49:25:
in the opening that has no objective advantage at the super-GM level.


Don't say this as fact when it's not considered fact or even considered with little doubt. It is NOT objective, it is JUST opinion. Most people consider that White still has an advantage.

As MartinC stated, everything is drawn "objectively".
  
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #20 - 08/14/11 at 08:35:25
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Well its all relative no? If you're fully objective then everything is drawn, and quite comfortably with it.

I'd say there probably should still be a little advantage left after 3 e5 as its so early in the game and whites play is entirely healthy and natural.

But it'd be a very silly thing to worry/argue about!
  
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #19 - 08/13/11 at 21:49:25
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fling wrote on 08/13/11 at 08:26:42:
Akavall wrote on 08/13/11 at 02:38:36:
Is there really no objective advantage in Advance French? It is played at top-level reasonably often, Svidler, Shirov, Morozevich, and Grischuk played it. I would think that white gets at least something.



There are several reasons player play a particular line. As far as I know, at top-level you sometimes want to have a solid line with few chances to lose. This often means little chances to win as well, but it is not critical. I would guess this is one of the reasons they play this line.

Other reasons are that they get to pick line first, no Winaver e.g. and that they have to vary and not only play one variation. Especially if the Advance is not the most fashionable right at the time they play the game.

Lastly, it might suit their playing style better than other variations, or their opponents worse than themselves. All these reasons (except the first maybe) have little to do with objective relevance, it is rather practical relevance.



I actually think that in Advance French positions are often pretty complex and the chance of white losing (or winning) is fairly high. If white want's to play safe, they should play Exchange French Wink. I really don't think that the above mention GMs chose that variation to play 'safe'.

Practical results are what really matters of course, but I somehow fell that it is hard to get good practical results, even with all the points that you mentioned, in the opening that has no objective advantage at the super-GM level.

  
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #18 - 08/13/11 at 21:36:06
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Akavall wrote on 08/13/11 at 21:32:54:
Yes, of course. My point was that white has some advantage in Advance French, not that it[3.e5] is the best objective move.


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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #17 - 08/13/11 at 21:32:54
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MNb wrote on 08/13/11 at 16:03:47:
Akavall wrote on 08/13/11 at 02:38:36:
Is there really no objective advantage in Advance French? It is played at top-level reasonably often, Svidler, Shirov, Morozevich, and Grischuk played it. I would think that white gets at least something.

According to that logic 3.Nc3 promises even more, because they have played it considerably more often than 3.e5.
Not to mention Fischer and Kasparov.


Yes, of course. My point was that white has some advantage in Advance French, not that it[3.e5] is the best objective move.
  
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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #16 - 08/13/11 at 16:03:47
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Akavall wrote on 08/13/11 at 02:38:36:
Is there really no objective advantage in Advance French? It is played at top-level reasonably often, Svidler, Shirov, Morozevich, and Grischuk played it. I would think that white gets at least something.

According to that logic 3.Nc3 promises even more, because they have played it considerably more often than 3.e5.
Not to mention Fischer and Kasparov.
  

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Re: C02: Is the French Advance a good weapon?
Reply #15 - 08/13/11 at 08:26:42
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Akavall wrote on 08/13/11 at 02:38:36:
Is there really no objective advantage in Advance French? It is played at top-level reasonably often, Svidler, Shirov, Morozevich, and Grischuk played it. I would think that white gets at least something.



There are several reasons player play a particular line. As far as I know, at top-level you sometimes want to have a solid line with few chances to lose. This often means little chances to win as well, but it is not critical. I would guess this is one of the reasons they play this line.

Other reasons are that they get to pick line first, no Winaver e.g. and that they have to vary and not only play one variation. Especially if the Advance is not the most fashionable right at the time they play the game.

Lastly, it might suit their playing style better than other variations, or their opponents worse than themselves. All these reasons (except the first maybe) have little to do with objective relevance, it is rather practical relevance.
  
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