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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 318642 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #135 - 07/31/11 at 12:57:48
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[1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 (Jaenisch didn't recommend it, but still: "Jaenisch Gambit", sometimes called "Schliemann Gambit", for reasons nobody understands) 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ Kd8!]

We had discussed this line 5...d5 [...] 11...Kd8! mainly in replies ##103-111, then turned to 5...Nf6. But in reply #127 it became clear that 11...Kd8 required repair work.
  
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Zwischenzugzwang
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #134 - 07/31/11 at 12:38:14
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Looking at the recent postings in this thread, some serious chess analysis business seems to be going on  Smiley !

However, having a look here only now and then, it's quite difficult to follow. (Taking me for example, these days I have no internet access during the week, and so I am only "here" on weekends.) For me and probably many other "part-time-visitors" to this thread, it would be very helpful to have the initial moves at the beginning of each posting. I guess that shouldn't be a big deal with some "copy and paste"?
It might not be necessary if those moves are given in the posting immediately before, but when refering back to a posting five or ten answers before, then it takes quite some effort for part-time-analysts just to follow.
I remember having read a similar "complaint" in another thread, and the phenomenon under discussion is in no way restricted to this particular thread, but inserting the initial moves would - in my view - greatly reduce the danger of leading to a "private discussion" of three, four, five contributors, leaving everybody else practically out.  Sad

Thanks!

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #133 - 07/31/11 at 01:01:39
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[1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 (Jaenisch didn't recommend it, but still: "Jaenisch Gambit", sometimes called "Schliemann Gambit", for reasons nobody understands) 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ Kd8!]

Markovich wrote on 07/30/11 at 18:14:12:
Well, looking back at 12.Qa5 Ke8 13.Qe5+ Kf7 14.Nb5 c6 15.Qd4 Qg4, I wonder if simply 16.Nxd6+ is good. 16...Bxd6 17.Qxd6 Qxg2 18.Rf1.  If 18...Nf6 19.Qc7 Kg6 20.b3!. But 18...looks more challenging, so I'm not sure.

Critical seems 18...Nf6 19.Qc7+ (19.Qg3 Qxg3 20.fxg3 h5) 19...Ke6! 20.Qxb7 Rhc8 21.b3 Nd7! = or 21.Qb3 Qxh2 22.a4 Ng4 =.
« Last Edit: 07/31/11 at 12:48:32 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #132 - 07/30/11 at 18:14:12
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Well, looking back at 12.Qa5 Ke8 13.Qe5+ Kf7 14.Nb5 c6 15.Qd4 Qg4, I wonder if simply 16.Nxd6+ is good. 16...Bxd6 17.Qxd6 Qxg2 18.Rf1.  If 18...Nf6 19.Qc7 Kg6 20.b3!. But 18...Ne7 looks more challenging, so I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: 07/31/11 at 00:19:26 by Markovich »  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #131 - 07/29/11 at 22:25:22
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It is perhaps worth mentioning that (in the position arising from 11...Kd8) Sokolov gave on p. 12 only this sequence: 12.Nb5 Nf6 13.Qe2 c6 14.Nc3 Bc5 15.0.0 Re8. In this move-order 15...Rf8 is not possible because of 16.Nxe4. In "our" move-order 13...Bc5 14.0-0 Re8 White could try 15.a4 hoping for either 15...Ng4? 16.b4! +/- or 15...c6 16.Nc3 when we were back at Sokolov's analysis.

However, after 14.0-0 the database has the following: two games with 14...Rf8 15.d4 exd3 16.Qe5 Bb6 17.Bg5 (Lothar Vogt - Senarega and Fedorov - Morgado, corr., drawn with 17...Kc8), and two corr. wins for Black with 14...Ra6 15.b3 Rf8 and 14...c6 15.Nc3 Re8.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #130 - 07/29/11 at 08:20:02
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Markovich wrote on 07/29/11 at 01:49:55:
Well then, after 5...d5 and 7...Qd5 8.c8 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bxd7 10.Qh5+ Kd8 11.Bxd7 Qxd7, what's the problem with Sokolov's 12.Nb5?

From my reply #103:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/27/11 at 10:53:37:
In my opinion Black should play 11...Kd8 (instead of g6), e.g. 12.Nb5 Nf6 13.Qe2 Bc5 14.0.0 Re8 15.Nc3 Ra6 +=.

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There is some compensation for the two (!) pawns. Maybe not enough, but the chances are better than after 11...g6.

Edit: Black scores 50% (in 32 games) with 11...Kd8 and even 75% (6 games) with 13...Bc5. Surprisingly, Sokolov (who enters this position in the different move order 10.Qh5+ Kd8 11.Bxd7+ Qxd7 ...) considers only 13...c6 (with insufficient comp.), which looks illogical.

In the 12.Qa5 Ke8 13.Qe5+ Kf7 14.Nb5 c6 15.Qd4 Qg4 alternative suggested by MNb, after 16.Qb6 Be7 17.Qxb7 Nf6 18.Nd6+ Ke6 19.Qxc6 Bxd6 20.c5 Rhd8 21.cxd6 Black also has alternatives like 21...Rac8!? (instead of 21...Qxg2 22.d7+ +0.30) 22.Qa6 Qxg2 23.Qf1 Qf3 24.Rg1 Nh5 (or 24...Qf5, or 24...Nd5?!) 25.d7 Rc7 26.Qe2 (26.Qg2 Qxg2 27.Rxg2 Nf4 = [0.08]) 26...Qxe2+ 27.Kxe2 Rdxd7 28.Kf1 (28.Kd1 Rf7 29.Rf1 Nf4 = [+0.08]) 28...g6 29.Rg5 Rc2 30.b3 Rf7 31.Ke2 Nf4+ when Black should have enough play to hold the ending.

So in my opinion we have the choice between the diagram above and 16.Nc7 Ra5! 17.Qb6 Re5 18.Qxb7 Qd7 19.c5 (19.0-0 Re7 20.d3 with four pawns for the knight, but Black has active play; or 20.d4 resp. 20.Re1; or 19.a4, with unclear endings) 19...Bxc5 (19...Kg6? 20.b4 Nf6 21.Qb8) 20.Qb3+ Kg6 21.Na6 Ba7 (probably best)

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #129 - 07/29/11 at 01:49:55
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Well then, after 5...d5 and 7...Qd5 8.c8 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bxd7 10.Qh5+ Kd8 11.Bxd7 Qxd7, what's the problem with Sokolov's 12.Nb5?
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #128 - 07/28/11 at 22:37:53
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Göran wrote on 07/27/11 at 17:56:27:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/27/11 at 09:33:35:
@Hacker: Excellent survey - you could straightaway change jobs and work for the editorial team of the NIC Yearbook.

Thanks for your kind feedback. I was aiming for Kaissiber however. I understand though I have to be in practise at NIC Yearbook first for some time before being promoted to Kaissiber.

Cool  Around 1980 René Olthof, now a top force at Yearbook, wrote articles for Hugh Myers' MOB; a few years later I did the same. Speaking about career planning - for opening journalism lesser qualifications are sometimes sufficient, being a GM or such.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #127 - 07/28/11 at 22:16:47
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Someone had mentioned 16...Ra5 as a reaction to my idea 16.Nc7 (reply #106), but now I can't find that post. Was it deleted?

Actually, after (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+ Kd8 12.Qa5 Ke8 13.Qe5+ Kf7 14.Nb5 c6 15.Qd4 Qg4 16.Nc7!?) the move 16...Ra5! is surprisingly strong:

(a) 17.0-0? Rg5

(b) 17.b4 Bxb4 18.Qd8 Nf6! sacrificing Rh8 is unpleasant for White, e.g. 19.Qxh8 Qxg2 20.Rf1 Re5 (or Rf5), at least =. - If instead, 18.Bb2 Nf6 19.Qb6, Black has the shocking 19...Bxd2+ 20.Kxd2 Rd8+ 21.Kc1 Ra4 22.Qb3 e3!, again Black has at least a draw. - Finally, 18.Qb6 e3!! 19.fxe3 (19.Qxb4? exf2+ -+) 19...Rf5! or 19.Nd5 Qxg2 is even clearly better for Black.   

(c) 17.Qb6 seems best, but the consequences are not really clear, e.g. 17...Re5! 18.Qxb7 Qd7 19.c5 Bxc5 20.Qb3+ Kg6 21.Na6 Ba7! 22.0-0 Nf6 23.Nb4 (23.h3? Rb5 24.Qc4 Qd4! and Na6 is in trouble) 23...Rd8. For the two pawns, Black has good attacking chances (+0.41 at 20 ply). 

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Should we return to the alternative treatment 16.Qb6 Be7 ? It was at +0.30, so I can't say with certainty that it were worse than 16.Nc7.

Edit: I mention these evals in pawn units not because I blindly trust them. But they can be an orientation for others who compare their results.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #126 - 07/28/11 at 21:28:45
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/28/11 at 18:51:44:
The world elite's score with 10.0-0 is also not a clean sweep, only +3 =7.


Well, this is not too bad either. Not a single White loss.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #125 - 07/28/11 at 18:51:44
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MNb wrote on 07/28/11 at 15:39:39:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/28/11 at 13:24:15:
Maybe 13...Re6 14.Qe3 Qe7 15.f4  Bxe5 16.Bxe5 Qa3+ is an alternative in the game, but both Kb1 and Bb2 are fine (+0.80).

This time I tend to distrust computer evaluation (which quite often means that I make a fool out of myself  Cheesy ). 17.Bb2 Rxe3 18.Bxa3 Ree8 the "horror" scenario as pictured by tends to unfold: all heavy pieces get exchanged. Perhaps even more effective in this respect is 17...Qe7 18.Qf2 Re8.
At the other hand 17.Kb1 c5 initiates some unwelcome counterplay (with Ra6 to follow).

In your line 17.Bb2 Rxe3 18.Bxa3, it is true that almost all heavy pieces vanish from the board. but it seems to me that two of them survive: 18...Ree8 19.h3, or 18...Rxe1 19.Rxe1 Rd4 20.d3 Rxf4 21.Re8+ Kd7 22.Re7+ Kc8 23.Rxg7. Black's drawing chances may not be too bad, but assessing the variation we still write "+/-". If our ambitions for this repertoire are higher than to reach an ending with an extra pawn, someone should tell me please. I'd have to change the engine (Ryb3 aggressive or what's her name).
But basically you are right: White should avoid these exchanges, if possible. So 17.Kb1 is probably better; 17...c5 18.d3 Ra6 19.Bb2 Qxa2+ 20.Kc1 Be6 21.Qf3 g6 22.g4 Qa5 23.f5 +1.30. There are alternatives like 17...Rd5 18.Qf2 Ra5 19.d3 Qxa2+ 20.Kc1 Qa3+ 21.Bb2 Qf8 22.h3 h5 23.Rxe6 Bxe6 24.Re1 Bd7 25.Bc3, and again it must be +/-.

Black's ability to blockade with his opposite-coloured bishop is discussed in all these variations, but imo we don't want to demonstrate a win for White, only excellent winning chances. The world elite's score with 10.0-0 is also not a clean sweep, only +3 =7.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #124 - 07/28/11 at 15:51:21
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fling wrote on 07/28/11 at 15:29:42:
I seems like Radjabov probably agreed.


I just realized he played 8 ...bxc6 and 9 ...Qe6 against Karjakin recently.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #123 - 07/28/11 at 15:39:39
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/28/11 at 13:24:15:
Maybe 13...Re6 14.Qe3 Qe7 15.f4  Bxe5 16.Bxe5 Qa3+ is an alternative in the game, but both Kb1 and Bb2 are fine (+0.80).

This time I tend to distrust computer evaluation (which quite often means that I make a fool out of myself  Cheesy ). 17.Bb2 Rxe3 18.Bxa3 Ree8 the "horror" scenario as pictured by tends to unfold: all heavy pieces get exchanged. Perhaps even more effective in this respect is 17...Qe7 18.Qf2 Re8.
At the other hand 17.Kb1 c5 initiates some unwelcome counterplay (with Ra6 to follow).
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #122 - 07/28/11 at 15:29:42
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Markovich wrote on 07/28/11 at 00:33:12:
After 10.O-O O-O 11.d4 I respectfully doubt Sokolov's claim that White will have trouble making progress.


I seems like Radjabov probably agreed. I feel the main reason White is not worse is because he is a pawn up. However, he will have trouble converting that pawn without the light-squared bishop. On the other hand, White scores pretty well after both 0-0 and d3, but as pointed out, b3 looks very interesting.

As Fllg says, White doesn't really have power to break with d5 or f5 without his bishop. For that reason, putting the remaining one where it can do some something seems critical.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/28/11 at 13:24:15:
Markovich wrote on 07/28/11 at 11:34:13:
MNb wrote on 07/28/11 at 03:49:49:
I'm not impressed by 10.b3 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd6.
Most challenging seems to be 10.0-0 [...] Black's only hope of survival are the opposite coloured Bishops (...Bxe5) combined with a light-square blockade.

This had been my thought exactly, so I'm happy to see you also think so.  [...]

To make sure that we can exclude 10.b3, I have looked at the two corr. games featuring this move. - I never studied 10.0-0. The games often include Bxe5 which creates opposite bishops. One of the key criteria for a good line will be that White must keep some heavy pieces on the board. Maybe 10.0-0 is better in this respect, but that's not the only factor.

So I believe that the tactical 10...Bxc2 is relevant. For more details see the comments included in the game. 12.Qc4+!? +/- looks risky at first, but may be best. In my opinion, White has a clear advantage. Without knowing much about the 80 games played with 10.0-0, this rare idea 10.b3 might be "good enough".


I think 10.b3 would be a fresh approach to the position, and Bissmann apparently liked the idea as well.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #121 - 07/28/11 at 14:48:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/27/11 at 20:57:32:
Instead of 12.b3, the computer likes 12.Nf3 +- (2.00).


That´s pretty convincing. It´s strange that Emms missed this and I should have spotted it myself too, even without an engine.

I like the idea of 10.b3 too since after playing d4 and f4 the Bishop on c1 does not have much to do. Arranging pawn breaks with d5 or f5 is difficult with the white squared Bishop missing.
  
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